Line Combos: 1st vs. 2nd line - time to split up Ehlers - Little - Laine? Mod Warning Post #552

[Rene Saari]

The experimentation should have been done during the garbage time of last season, but for some reason we went full steam ahead.

Precisely

 

[Rene Saari]

Can you elaborate more on this since I can't undestand how putting Ehlers or Laine to the 1st line instead of Connor would make 1st line less able to match up the toughest opposition.

If anything, replacing Connor with Laine should make the 1st line much better defensively, as the defensive play has been pretty much the only major problem with 1st line so far. The 1st line has been on fire offensively and therefore they have been able to stay on net positive 5-on-5, but a bit too often they are letting 2-3 goals against per game.

Yes, but Maurice don't think that Patrik can handle his natural LW-position.

 

[Halberdier]

Well up until recently i haven’t liked Laine’s zone exits, or rather, lack there of. He has to be more responsible with the puck and i believe Connor has been better in that specific regard. But if Laine can be stronger on the puck and to maintain possession it would be a big improvement. I think lately Ehlers and Laine are kinda playing like they’re on bigger ice whereas Connor is more the North American style a bit.

As far as the top line getting scored on, well we know at times Wheeler hasn’t exactly been stellar defensively and Schief does try and fly the zone rather quick at times and it has bitten him sometimes.

I think there’s time where they get a little cocky and too cute and it hurts them. They can be more aggressive on the forecheck.

Laine's role on PoMo's vision has never been making zone exits with puck, sadly, but Laine's role has been taking the loose puck and throwing it 100% safe way to the neutral zone for Ehlers or sometimes to Little. Don't ask me why Maurice wants that, but that is what's exactly happening here. I don't think we should blame Laine for following Maurice's tactics. Laine is used on that role when he is RW, as his long passes happens to be technically top quality, probably only Big Buff doing them better in the Jets.

If they switched positions of Connor and Laine, Laine would become LW, his natural position, and therefore he would no more be the "throw the puck to the neutral zone" -guy of the line. That would allow Laine to not be the last forward to leave d-zone .

I really hope that CLW line won't be more aggressive on forecheck on d-zone, but rather stay between the play and the goal, as aggressive forecheck (a.k.a. panic) and losing own men on d-zone was exactly the thing that lead to 2 miserable losses when season started.

 

[Rene Saari]

Well up until recently i haven’t liked Laine’s zone exits, or rather, lack there of. He has to be more responsible with the puck and i believe Connor has been better in that specific regard. But if Laine can be stronger on the puck and to maintain possession it would be a big improvement. I think lately Ehlers and Laine are kinda playing like they’re on bigger ice whereas Connor is more the North American style a bit.

As far as the top line getting scored on, well we know at times Wheeler hasn’t exactly been stellar defensively and Schief does try and fly the zone rather quick at times and it has bitten him sometimes.

I think there’s time where they get a little cocky and too cute and it hurts them. They can be more aggressive on the forecheck.

Like it or not, but Laine is better defensively than you seem to understand.
With line combos, the most important thing is to put guys who think the game in a same way in to the same lines.
That is called chemistry.
F.e. Armia, Scheifele, Laine and Connor would have that when playing together.
Little, Wheeler, Ehlers and Perreault have that.

[mod]

 

[Halberdier]

Yes, but Maurice don't think that Patrik can handle his natural LW-position.

That might be, but I don't understand the reason. He was LW for a moment when last season started. Did do awesome job offensively, had some struggles defensively. Then he did switch him to RW, which did help him defensively, but also his offensive production did go down.

Laine was a 18-year-old rookie with only couple of NHL games on his belt. I do think that he has developed a lot since that and really should get another opportunity to play LW very soon. That should allow him so much more opportunities to shoot the puck, which is a good thing. That would give him more tools for one-on-one plays as well. Also Laine was surprisingly good defensively on FEL, while playing LW, so that really should not be an issue. Laine was often replacing a defenseman, and you did not need ever worry when that happened since he did never let his guy deke through, but he always stayed between the play and the net.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

Despite the lack of points with our second line(although thats been picking up a hair) I fail to see the fuss about our second line atm. They have been decent to good defensively, seem to be generating more chances lately and we have 3 other lines rolling at the moment. Loosing a few games will lead to some changes and with MP currently on the 4th line we essentially have a plug and play option for our top six.

When that time comes I'd think that MP plays LW for Laine.

MP/Chef/Laine
Connor/Little/Wheeler
Ehlers/Lowry/Armia
Copp/Hendricks/Tanev

I don't really like that 4th line but i like the first 3.

I'm not in a hurry to see a change though as that means we've probably hit a skid in the winning.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

That might be, but I don't understand the reason. He was LW for a moment when last season started. Did do awesome job offensively, had some struggles defensively. Then he did switch him to RW, which did help him defensively, but also his offensive production did go down.

Laine was a 18-year-old rookie with only couple of NHL games on his belt. I do think that he has developed a lot since that and really should get another opportunity to play LW very soon. That should allow him so much more opportunities to shoot the puck, which is a good thing. That would give him more tools for one-on-one plays as well. Also Laine was surprisingly good defensively on FEL, while playing LW, so that really should not be an issue. Laine was often replacing a defenseman, and you did not need ever worry when that happened since he did never let his guy deke through, but he always stayed between the play and the net.

The NHL isn't Liiga. The larger ice surface allows players to have a lot more time to get the puck up ice from their defensive zone. The LW and RW thing has more to do with breaking the puck up ice not really "defensive" play.

This play doesn't happen if Laine is on his backhand.


As has been stated time and time again LW/RW doesn't have much to do in the offensive zone.

 

[tbcwpg]

Like it or not, but Laine is better defensively than you seem to understand.
With line combos, the most important thing is to put guys who think the game in a same way in to the same lines.
That is called chemistry.
F.e. Armia, Scheifele, Laine and Connor would have that when playing together.
Little, Wheeler, Ehlers and Perreault have that.

[mod]

I'm not the guy you responded to, but there's a difference between being good defensively and being good at transitioning from defence to offence.

I think Little's slow start to the season has hurt Laine more than being on a line with Ehlers. I don't see how we can break up Connor-Scheifele-wheeler right now. Maybe move Perreault up to C the second line?

 

[kcin94]

Please. There is N+1 possible combinations other than ELL even without touching CSW at all.

That is true. Except every suggestion in this thread does change CSW and most remove Sheif from Wheeler who are both running at 1.25+ P/G.

No, ELL isn't working well, but they also aren't anchoring the team and we are on a 4 game win streak and 9-1-3 overall with our top 2 lines as they are. In other words, keep them together while the team is winning unless injuries force a change.

I guarantee most posters wanting a change will be the first to vilify Maurice if he makes those exact changes and the team starts losing.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

I'm not the guy you responded to, but there's a difference between being good defensively and being good at transitioning from defence to offence.

I think Little's slow start to the season has hurt Laine more than being on a line with Ehlers. I don't see how we can break up Connor-Scheifele-wheeler right now. Maybe move Perreault up to C the second line?

Matty P isn't playing Center any more. I would love to see him there but he said it gives him problems with his back and he is far more comfortable playing the wing now.

 

[Narow]

Would be nice to have the stats from this season, including Wheeler, Little, Perreault and Connor, if anyone can find that. Scheifele with Wheeler would be interesting, also Perreault with Little.

ESL definitely worked, but I think CSW would have very similar numbers.

My guess is that wheeler and scheifeles numbers are as good if not better except for Cf%. Will they maintain it tho?

Besides Laine is shooting at a nice rate. Should be able to increase it even more if that line ever gets it together...

 

[almostawake]

Optimizing everything so tightly is pointless this early in the season.

The unfortunate reality is that most line combinations are going to be tried over the course of the season due to injuries. Why not let these three try to find some chemistry now. As long as the Jets are winning, it is a pretty low cost attempt.

And for what its worth, I find it strange that apparently we don't have the statistical significance required to properly assess the success of CSW (17-18) vs ESL (16-17) but we already have the sample size to say ELL (17-18) is a failed line with no potential...

 

[grieves]

^
ELL was hot garbage last year too, and they are exactly that this year so it's not a secret anymore. As soon as I saw that line in the GDT, I facepalmed my head out of the room.

My guess is that wheeler and scheifeles numbers are as good if not better except for Cf%. Will they maintain it tho?

Besides Laine is shooting at a nice rate. Should be able to increase it even more if that line ever gets it together...

Yep, the current pace is not a problem with CSW, but the Jets' shooting percentage (overall) is highest it has been in at least a decade, if not more.

Last year they did a straight-up ESL to ESW swap, and the production of that line more than halved, which is kind of interesting.

 

[ecolad]

Laine's role on PoMo's vision has never been making zone exits with puck, sadly, but Laine's role has been taking the loose puck and throwing it 100% safe way to the neutral zone for Ehlers or sometimes to Little. Don't ask me why Maurice wants that, but that is what's exactly happening here. I don't think we should blame Laine for following Maurice's tactics. Laine is used on that role when he is RW, as his long passes happens to be technically top quality, probably only Big Buff doing them better in the Jets.

If they switched positions of Connor and Laine, Laine would become LW, his natural position, and therefore he would no more be the "throw the puck to the neutral zone" -guy of the line. That would allow Laine to not be the last forward to leave d-zone .

I really hope that CLW line won't be more aggressive on forecheck on d-zone, but rather stay between the play and the goal, as aggressive forecheck (a.k.a. panic) and losing own men on d-zone was exactly the thing that lead to 2 miserable losses when season started.

Your observation that Laine is simply adhering to Maurice`s tactics/strategies is right on the mark. Laine is being asked to come back deep into the defensive zone so as to assist our D with their breakouts from behind the net ( most of which are on the right side of the ice where Laine plays.). Those on this board who criticize him for giving up possession through either "chip shots off the boards", or, for the "flop shots to the neutral zone" simply fail to recognize that this is exactly what Maurice advocates. This IS our breakout system that we are observing (and that many ,including myself, do not like !!)

The worst part is that Laine must oftentimes position himself near the boards, at a complete standstill, looking back towards the D and unable to see the forechecker. With highly aggressive, physical forecheckers - often intentionally flooding that side of the ice - Laine and anyone else asked to play this role- is IMO vulnerable to injury. For certain, as you note, Laine will necessarily be the last forward to vacate the defensive zone, thereby limiting his ability to generate offense off the rush. I suggest that very few offesive thrusts are a result of transitional play from our end of the ice -- most times, offensive thrusts come from errors/turnovers by the opponent and might be called transitional counter-plays.

EDIT- Sorry, just realized that this is now probably in the wrong thread.

 

[Flair Hay]

No point in changing it up until we stop winning games. Won 8 of our last 10.

 

[GNP]

Are the posters more interested in lineup changes to "elevate" individual scoring stats ?

OR

Would they rather leave the lines as they are for "elevated"-team stats ???

I'd much rather see the "team" being considered first, and a successful playoff run.

 

[grieves]

Are the posters more interested in lineup changes to "elevate" individual scoring stats ?

OR

Would they rather leave the lines as they are for "elevated"-team stats ???

I'd much rather see the "team" being considered first, and a successful playoff run.

I can only speak for myself, but I get the feeling that everyone is interested in making the team the best team it can be.

 

[DashingDane]

I think if we are trying to maximize the teams points we need to wait for 1-2 loses before we change anything. All the other lines are playing too well to risk shuffling the lines and ruin a hot streak. If ELL starts hurting the team before that I'm all for changing it up. I certainly don't think they have good chemistry but when the rest of the team does it's just tuff luck 2nd line.

 

[DashingDane]

If our young players are truly as good as we all claim, playing with any combo of Nickel, Litts, Wheels, Frenchie, Ehls, Laine and Connor should be plenty of talent for them to succeed. If they aren't we should be looking at them and not everyone else.

At the moment Ehls isn't looking great... before that it was Litts and before that it was Laine. With that amount of talent on that line having one player off their game shouldn't result in a completely ineffective line.

 

[dratbunnies]

Your observation that Laine is simply adhering to Maurice`s tactics/strategies is right on the mark. Laine is being asked to come back deep into the defensive zone so as to assist our D with their breakouts from behind the net ( most of which are on the right side of the ice where Laine plays.). Those on this board who criticize him for giving up possession through either "chip shots off the boards", or, for the "flop shots to the neutral zone" simply fail to recognize that this is exactly what Maurice advocates. This IS our breakout system that we are observing (and that many ,including myself, do not like !!)

The worst part is that Laine must oftentimes position himself near the boards, at a complete standstill, looking back towards the D and unable to see the forechecker. With highly aggressive, physical forecheckers - often intentionally flooding that side of the ice - Laine and anyone else asked to play this role- is IMO vulnerable to injury. For certain, as you note, Laine will necessarily be the last forward to vacate the defensive zone, thereby limiting his ability to generate offense off the rush. I suggest that very few offesive thrusts are a result of transitional play from our end of the ice -- most times, offensive thrusts come from errors/turnovers by the opponent and might be called transitional counter-plays.

EDIT- Sorry, just realized that this is now probably in the wrong thread.

Does Laine not play in the same system as the other wingers on this team? Some of which have not visibly (IMO) had the same troubles with the breakout? I think it's very disingenuous to suggest Laine is great on the breakout but he is purposefully doing bad things because he is a good little soldier.
Laine is a good player. He has the best shot in the league IMO, he is fantastic at getting it off from awkward positions. There is ton of things he is top tier at. There are also things he needs to work on. There are also things he needs to work on a lot.

 

[Psych0dad]

As long as this team keeps winning games, you will continue to be disappointed if you wish for CSW to be broken up.

We know but we can criticize it even when we know Maurice is not smart enough to do it.

With that amount of talent on that line having one player off their game shouldn't result in a completely ineffective line.

But in this reality it does so it needs fixing. And yes, bad chemistry will severely hamper even the most talented individuals especially when they are kids.

 

[libertarian]

While I agree that ELL have not been great I do not want to see any changes on the other lines so ELL have to stay together. Their play has been much better over the last few games so maybe there is hope for that line. As long as the Jets are winning and the forwards stay healthy there is no reason to change any line.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I am not a big fan of f'ing with the lines while we are on an epic points string.

 

[LucianoBorsato]

Wasn't there a whole lot of chest thumping and fist banging not long ago due to Maurice's propensity to frequently pull out the line blender? I'd say for now if it's working for the team overall don't tinker. ELL has looked better as of late.

 

[grieves]

I am not a big fan of f'ing with the lines while we are on an epic points string.

I guess you don't want to fix the PK either then? We are winning after all.

My point is that this team is not some sort of house of cards. We can (and should) tinker with the ineffective bits and we won't fall off a cliff. And if we do, we can always change it back.