Exactly and some here don't want to admit this and would rather blame the coach for the poor analytics results..
Exactly and some here don't want to admit this and would rather blame the coach for the poor analytics results..
Lafleurs Guy
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- Jul 20, 2007
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Dale Weise and DD playing on our first line is not a reflection of the roster, it's a reflection of the coach. If somebody decides to play Malkin on the 4th line, that's a coaching problem, not a Malkin one.
The Capitals aren't close to being as good as we are. They have two guys who are fantastic and then it's a dropoff. Pittsburgh's in a silmilar situation but they have Letang.
Factor out Price and maybe Pittsburgh's as good as we are. We don't have their top end talent (nobody in the league does) but we've got a hell of a lot more depth. Factor in goaltending though and we're better than they are. Washington isn't close. I'd rather have Price than Ovechkin right now. I'd rather have Subban over Backstrom. We've got Pleks, Max, Galchenyuk, Markov.... no freaking way we're not as good as Washington is.
Yeah, I'm one of those folks who value actual facts. I'm crazy that way.
Dominator13
Registered User
Oh please.
It's not like we have superstars getting pushed down so that Weise plays in the 1st line or DD on the 2nd. And btw Washington has a better 1st, 2nd and 3rd line than us. There's no "facts" that contradict that.
I could of added Tampa Bay to the list too.
Washington's forwards are easily better than ours imo. The high end talent and secondary scorers trump ours and I don't think it's particularly close.
Lafleurs Guy
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Oh please? You make a ludicrous comparison and come back with this? You think freaking Washington's got a better roster than we do?
Okay can't wait to read the rest of this post. So we need superstars to push them off the first ****ing line? Are you serious here? WTF is David ****ing Desharnais and Dale ****ing Weise doing on the first line???? There is no ****ing reason AT ALL for them to be there.
And given the way MT runs the team I'm not sure if he'd play Backstrom there over DD anyway, 'cause we sure as hell have better options than DD for our first line now.
They have Ovechkin and Backstrom. Apart from that, the club is very mediocre. And how is their D? Do they have a Subban? Do they have a Markov? Does Braeden Holtby equal Carey Price?
Go down the list of their best players vs ours:
Price vs Ovechkin
Subban vs Backstrom
Max vs
Markov vs
Galchenyuk vs
Pleks vs
You fill in the blanks there and let me know how it works out for Washington.
No, let's stick with this for now. Once I shred you on it, you can start shifting the argument towards other teams.
Even if you're right... so what? We've got Subban, Price, Markov, Beaulieu, Gonchar... Washington isn't close to as good as we are.
Having Ovechkin doesn't automatically give Washington the better team man. And believe it or not Max's totals over the past few years aren't that far off from OV's, and that's with ****ing DD as his center.
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No wonder other fan bases hate us. My but we are arrogant. Best roster in the east. Better than the 2011 Bruins. stop my stomach hurts.
stop my stomach hurts.
Dominator13
Registered User
You didn't shred **** all.
You're just making up bad excuses to blame the coach on everything. Plus you keep bringing Price and Subban up when I keep talking about forwards. You're all numbers and no context. Comparing Price with Ovechkin? Do you think I'm 5 years old or something? Compare him to Holtby, not Ovechkin, which obviously there we're in better position.
Oh and I wonder why you wanted to keep Tampa Bay out of it since our line up is better than everybody in the east, cause it was harder to compare Price to Stamkos I presume...
You're just making up bad excuses to blame the coach on everything. Plus you keep bringing Price and Subban up when I keep talking about forwards. You're all numbers and no context. Comparing Price with Ovechkin? Do you think I'm 5 years old or something? Compare him to Holtby, not Ovechkin, which obviously there we're in better position.
Oh and I wonder why you wanted to keep Tampa Bay out of it since our line up is better than everybody in the east, cause it was harder to compare Price to Stamkos I presume...
Lafleurs Guy
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- Jul 20, 2007
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Then fill in the blanks and defend your argument.
Bad excuses? A bad excuse is sitting there saying that we don't have any superstars to push David ****ing Desharnais off the first line. THAT's a bad excuse.
You've said Washington's a better roster. The roster includes blueliners and goalies. So YES I'm going to talk about them esp since we blow Washington out of the water on that side of the ledger.
Sure... why not? Everyone focuses on a top forward and then asks where's ours? And then goaltending is an afterthought. Our best players are in net and on the blueline. Our superstars compare pretty favourably to others they're just in different positions.
From reading your posts? Sometimes... yeah. Esp when you just throw Washington out there.
No freaking kidding.
_vivelequebec_
Registered User
Dominator13
Registered User
This is unreal. We don't even have a PPG forward, yet we have the best roster in our conference. Oh and apparently we have these 1st liners hidden somewhere to push our players down the depth chart, no names included cause that requires thinking for 2 seconds, but they're there.
Johansson-Backstrom-Ovechkin
Burakowsky-Kuznetsov-Brower
Laich-Ferh-Ward
Beagle-Latta-Wilson
Chimera
There's no ****ing way we have the same kind of firepower or depth as them. That 3rd line alone is getting praise every week. The same can be said about Tampa Bay that currently has the best 2nd line in the league.
You think I'm 5 years old by reading my posts? How hard is it to do like you to just read stats and complain all the time? No feedback, no solutions, just fire the coach cause he's the cause of everything.
And stop putting Price in there, I'm very much aware that he's possibly the leading Vesina and Hart contender, I'm talking about the whole team. Plus if analyse teams, you go position by position, not who's ranked n.1, that's just stupid and doesn't say crap. We have a slightly better D core, a much better goalie and a much weaker forward group. That doesn't make us the clear cut the best roster in the conference.
Johansson-Backstrom-Ovechkin
Burakowsky-Kuznetsov-Brower
Laich-Ferh-Ward
Beagle-Latta-Wilson
Chimera
There's no ****ing way we have the same kind of firepower or depth as them. That 3rd line alone is getting praise every week. The same can be said about Tampa Bay that currently has the best 2nd line in the league.
You think I'm 5 years old by reading my posts? How hard is it to do like you to just read stats and complain all the time? No feedback, no solutions, just fire the coach cause he's the cause of everything.
And stop putting Price in there, I'm very much aware that he's possibly the leading Vesina and Hart contender, I'm talking about the whole team. Plus if analyse teams, you go position by position, not who's ranked n.1, that's just stupid and doesn't say crap. We have a slightly better D core, a much better goalie and a much weaker forward group. That doesn't make us the clear cut the best roster in the conference.
_vivelequebec_
Registered User
We built our team from the back, I heard it 10 years ago when we drafted Price. We're like the 2000s Devils, fast team with great goalkeeping, great D and fast hardworking forwards. That's our system, of course you may not like it (which would be kind of moronic since we have a great record in our last 100 games) but that doesn't mean Washington are better. Much weaker forward group, I don't think so. Weaker for sure, but never forget we just don't share the same tactic. Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Pacioretty for example don't have as much offensive freedom as Caps forward. And the medias don't promote our team like they promote PIT and WAS, I don't know if it brains you.
TB, NYR, PIT, NYI and WAS all have nice teams, but in a 7 games serie where you can deeply analyse your opponent and you rely on your goalie I definitely prefer our team (and even our coaching staff). I know we're only taking talent in consideration here, but NYR - PIT - WAS also have older players.
Nashville and Chicago have better rosters, that's for sure.
TB, NYR, PIT, NYI and WAS all have nice teams, but in a 7 games serie where you can deeply analyse your opponent and you rely on your goalie I definitely prefer our team (and even our coaching staff). I know we're only taking talent in consideration here, but NYR - PIT - WAS also have older players.
Nashville and Chicago have better rosters, that's for sure.
Habs_Apostle
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2004
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Every team *****es about their coaches. And all kidding aside, we don't have the strongest team on paper, but we actually match up pretty well in this department.
Oh please? You make a ludicrous comparison and come back with this? You think freaking Washington's got a better roster than we do?
So we need superstars to push them off the first ****ing line? Are you serious here? WTF is David ****ing Desharnais and Dale ****ing Weise doing on the first line???? There is no ****ing reason AT ALL for them to be there.
And given the way MT runs the team I'm not sure if he'd play Backstrom there over DD anyway, 'cause we sure as hell have better options than DD for our first line now.
They have Ovechkin and Backstrom. Apart from that, the club is very mediocre. And how is their D? Do they have a Subban? Do they have a Markov? Does Braeden Holtby equal Carey Price?
Go down the list of their best players vs ours:
Price vs Ovechkin
Subban vs Backstrom
Max vs
Markov vs
Galchenyuk vs
Pleks vs
You fill in the blanks there and let me know how it works out for Washington.
No, let's stick with this for now. Once I shred you on it, you can start shifting the argument towards other teams.
Even if you're right... so what? We've got Subban, Price, Markov, Beaulieu, Gonchar... Washington isn't close to as good as we are.
Having Ovechkin doesn't automatically give Washington the better team man. And believe it or not Max's totals over the past few years aren't that far off from OV's, and that's with ****ing DD as his center.
Wahingtons D is pretty good overall too:
27 KARL ALZNER
74 JOHN CARLSON
52 MIKE GREEN
38 JACK HILLEN
2 MATT NISKANEN
61 STEVE OLEKSY
4 JOHN ERSKINE
44 BROOKS ORPIK
Who said anything about Washington having Ovy automatically making them a better team? They have a much better forward group imo. Why do you do this KG. Do you know anything about the rosters outside of Montreal. I'm starting to doubt it.
Lafleurs Guy
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We have the 5th best goalscorer of the last two seasons (playing with a bad center) we have a Norris winner as well as the leading Hart and Vezina Candidate. Not many teams have point per game players going for them btw.
Right 'cause Pleks, Galchenyuk, Eller aren't good enough to push down the Great DD.
Their first line is scary. Best in the league scary. Apart from that there's nothing there that's better than us. Our 2nd and 3rd lines are definitely better. Pleks vs Kuzenetsov? Eller vs Ferh? Yeah, I'll take our guys thanks.
And where's the blueline? Where's the goalie? Why are you afraid to fill in the blanks above?
We don't have their first line. That's it. Our D crushes them, our goaltending crushes them. We have a better roster without a doubt.
Well, like I said before... yeah. I look at what you posted in the other thread a little while ago. "Max produced more with DD than he did with Galchenyuk"... but you don't post the numbers. You don't back anything up. It's just "Hey look! They have Galchenyuk! We don't have a point per game player in our lineup, how can we be better?"
Why????? Should we take Ovechkin out of Washington's roster too? What do they look like then?
Price is our best player and right now he might be the most valuable player in the league. WTF wouldn't we include him?
I also don't see why we have to go position by position either. You can stack rank players to get a feel for the talent on those rosters. Position by position is fine too but no reason we can't look at it from a stack rank perspective. And when you do a stack ranking it becomes clear just how inferior their lineup is to ours.
LaP
Registered User
Lafleurs Guy
Guuuuuuuy!
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Vs Subban, Markov, Gonchar, Bealieu, Emelin, Gilbert... Yeah, I'll take our group by a mile. Thanks.
I'm sure you would, because your incapable of rational debate. It's your way or the highway, it's interesting when comparing rosters you felt it necessary to compare our goalie to their RWer, no agenda here. lol
Cole Caulifield
Registered User
- Apr 22, 2004
- 27,967
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As long as they're properly handpicked to represent the opinion you had before analyzing said facts !
I don't know who's on third !
Lafleurs Guy
Guuuuuuuy!
- Jul 20, 2007
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Wrong.As long as they're properly handpicked to represent the opinion you had before analyzing said facts !
I don't know who's on third !
Who's on first.
I am? I don't think so. And I think if you asked most people here they'd say I'm pretty capable of rationale debate. Some I'm sure would say 'no' but most of the respected posters on this site would say I'm pretty capable of it. And I think you know it too.
Personal attacks aside though...
I didn't feel it was necessary at all. Just explained why I did it.
So you think Washington's blueline is better than ours? Okay. Tell us why you think this.
Dominator13
Registered User
We have the 5th best goalscorer of the last two seasons (playing with a bad center) we have a Norris winner as well as the leading Hart and Vezina Candidate. Not many teams have point per game players going for them btw.
Right 'cause Pleks, Galchenyuk, Eller aren't good enough to push down the Great DD.
1) I never said we had nothing better than them. I said why we're not clear cut the best team in the conference. We're still not in front of Washington, Pittsburgh or Tampa Bay.
2) Apparently nobody has pushed Desharnais down yet. Galchenyuk himself said he wants to stay at wing for now, Plekanec is doing his thing and Eller doesn't belong in the same category offensively.
Their 3rd line is the best in the entire league this season. That 2nd line is also very good, nothing to make fun of. Calling them a 1 line tram makes you wrong, no debate about it.
So Carlsson, Green, Alone, Orpik and Niskanen are a scrubs now? Ok then. We have a better 1st pairing, the rest? Not so sure either.
Again, VERY debatable for a ton of reasons. Just named a few, it's the last time I do it too.
Pot meet kettle? Calling us the best team in the conference is so much more thorough than saying Pacioretty scores on a more content basis than with Plekanec or Galchenyuk.
Because you compare apples with apples. What's next? We don't need top 6 help cause we have Price and a good D? We have a better goalie, just like the other 28 teams in the league. Price is the best, end of story. Stop comparing him to how good Ovechkin is at scoring, that's just children talk. There's depth charts for good reasons.
Covered this, done and over.
_vivelequebec_
Registered User
Might be true, but paper never played hockey right?
I think we have a real coherent roster, we fell MB has a plan and it works good. Washington can't say that, they are build on an accounting base.
Habs_Apostle
Registered User
- Feb 22, 2004
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Might be true, but paper never played hockey right?
I think we have a real coherent roster, we fell MB has a plan and it works good. Washington can't say that, they are build on an accounting base.
I agree. It's not about pure talent. There seems to be a lot of coherence in the organization from MB to MT through to the players. I think a very important factor in organizational success is confidence, and the players exude this, really seem to believe in MT and MB. I can't imagine why some want to disrupt that now. And then, of course, we have Price. Yes, we have holes, and I'm sure MB is working on them, but in the meantime there are many reasons for optimism.
Funny, considering your whole argument of why we're playing poorly hinges on numbers that exclude the goalie, ie corsi/fenwick, we've all argued they don't tell the whole story because they ignore the most important position/special teams etc.
Now we're comparing roster depth and you have price compared to ovy, I know Price is a pretty good puck handler, but you don't think he's going to improve our corsi, do you?
Or is this another one of your spin attempts? Debate honestly is all I am asking, this was all about corsi and how we're mediocre, now you want to add Price when comparing rosters to evaluate our team play, ie coaching and the relationship to corsi 
I don't think the Caps d is better, but it's certainly not miles worse.
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