Lets look at the Soviet team in 1972. Lets say 2/3s were from the Red Army team. I wish the NHL could have 1 team consisting of 2/3s of its roster from Canadas best players. Then you let each country do the same so you end up with the core of the best players from every country on the same team. Let these teams play together in the NHL then compete in all the world championships and Olympics. The hockey you would see in the international tournaments would be incredible. I dont think any 1 nation would dominate. The Canadian, USA, Sweden and Russian teams might be concidered the top 4 and might win the majority of the tournaments but you would see some upsets from the Chechs, Fins and Swiss teams. Unfortunately the NHL dont really give a crap about international tournaments and would never support an idea like this so we will never know what a true best vs best outcome will be. It would even be great to see which team wins the Stanley cup each year.
1979 Challenge Cup discussion thread
- Thread starter Mr Kanadensisk
- Start date
Aaaaaaaaaaaaa
Registered User
- May 16, 2009
- 12,252
- 1,585
The other reason this could never happen in the NHL?
Freedom.
Sure if we had a different form of government, we could force the players to go where we want, pay them what we want, and keep them humble by putting them in government housing and controling their schedules outside of hockey.
We'd probably create a machine that wins, but then they'd all be dying to leave the first chance they got.
How dare them wanting basic human rights, its the hockey thats important dont they know this
jekoh
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2004
- 4,416
- 4
They won the 96 World Cup (beating a stacked Canadian team 3 out of 4 times), and made it to the finals of the 91 Canada Cup and 2002 and 2010 Olympics. At the elite mens level they have been the 2nd best team for quite some time.
From you comments I assume you are refering to their results at the World Championships, but I don't think these results in any way reflect the USA's ability as a hockey nation. The WC is so obscure in the US that I would bet the majority of hockey fans there don't even know it exists and they have never come close to sending their top team.
Last edited:
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,938
Yakushev 72
jcorb58,
The purpose of the Soviet major league in the '70's and '80's was to provide some entertainment for the citizenry, but mainly to create a mechanism to put together national teams to win medals in the Olympics and the World Championships. Sergei Makarov was quoted as saying that there were 45 league games that club teams played each year, but that national team players typically played about 100 games a year. They would take a month or more off in the middle of the season to play in international tournaments. Obviously, there is no way that the NHL could afford to take a month off in mid-season to play in tournaments (although the Olympics comes pretty close). Centralizing national team players in Moscow, particularly CSKA, simply made transition to international games much easier and more efficient.
What the Soviets did prove is that just because you are the champions of a North American major professional league such as the NHL doesn't mean that you are the best in the World. You can't automatically say that you are the World Champion because you are the NHL champion. If I said this previously in this thread, forgive me, but Red Fisher of the Montreal Star (Gazette?) did promise that Team Canada would win all eight games of the Series of the Century by a minimum ten (10) goal margin, or he would eat his column in borscht (Russian beet soup). The sincere belief was that the best of the NHL would totally outclass Russian amateurs in all facets of the game, and that every game would be a blowout. You can't imagine the shock when the first game in Montreal did in fact turn out to be a blowout, 7-3, only in favor of the Soviets.
jcorb58,
The purpose of the Soviet major league in the '70's and '80's was to provide some entertainment for the citizenry, but mainly to create a mechanism to put together national teams to win medals in the Olympics and the World Championships. Sergei Makarov was quoted as saying that there were 45 league games that club teams played each year, but that national team players typically played about 100 games a year. They would take a month or more off in the middle of the season to play in international tournaments. Obviously, there is no way that the NHL could afford to take a month off in mid-season to play in tournaments (although the Olympics comes pretty close). Centralizing national team players in Moscow, particularly CSKA, simply made transition to international games much easier and more efficient.
What the Soviets did prove is that just because you are the champions of a North American major professional league such as the NHL doesn't mean that you are the best in the World. You can't automatically say that you are the World Champion because you are the NHL champion. If I said this previously in this thread, forgive me, but Red Fisher of the Montreal Star (Gazette?) did promise that Team Canada would win all eight games of the Series of the Century by a minimum ten (10) goal margin, or he would eat his column in borscht (Russian beet soup). The sincere belief was that the best of the NHL would totally outclass Russian amateurs in all facets of the game, and that every game would be a blowout. You can't imagine the shock when the first game in Montreal did in fact turn out to be a blowout, 7-3, only in favor of the Soviets.
McGuillicuddy
Registered User
- Sep 6, 2005
- 1,296
- 198
Ironically, even if your are technically 'World Champion' that doesn't mean you are the best in the world either.
Uncle Rotter
Registered User
Dick Beddoes. The same guy who said Gretzky would only have been a 3rd liner on the Leafs teams of the 40s
http://www.1972summitseries.com/beddoes.html
I meant no disrespect to the Czechs, i think the US will surpass them as they have came along way since Lake Placid. Maybe i should of included the Czechs instead for their history.
Yes i know that it would be impossible to do the same thing here because the NHL teams are individually owned. We cant just conscript players to the army and assign them to whatever team we like. When we met you in 72 the guys were not in shape, they thought it was going to be easy, they had no idea how good their opposition was. Game 1 was a reality check big time. I was absolutely shocked at the result. If we had the same model of being able to play together as a national team that you used we would be alot tougher to beat.
At least now all countries have to put together a national team the same way as all the best players are on differant NHL teams. I look forward to Sushi, you guys can ice one hell of a team.
jekoh
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2004
- 4,416
- 4
The USA had a great Olympics in Vancouver but they were shÃte just 4 years before. Czechia is the reigning world champion, and while you may dismiss the Worlds as a smaller competition the Czechs still won it against other similarily constructed teams, which speaks for their depth if nothing else.
As good as the Czech's are I don't think they are anywhere near to the Americans in terms of depth.
This more or less makes my point that the Soviets put much more focus on their national team than anyone else. Even though a team of Canada's top players could regularly defeat the USSR, obviously if Canada had put more effort into their national team development they could have been much much better than they were. The Soviet National teams were great teams, but primarily it is because they (and Czkslvk) were the only countries to put so much focus on their national program. On an individual player level I still feel the USSR were a considerable distance behind Canada, primarily because they had so many less people playing the sport.
Yes punished by receiving a major state award in 1972.
You continue to speculate based on false assumptions.
Firsov was the Soviet MVP in 1971 and the best forward at the World Championships that year, so your claim of him being way past his prime in 72 falls apart...
Yes which would mean execution...
That is all you could find??Oh, I am sure they drew the line at hockey.
http://iski.nm.ru/publish/enghish/Eng0066.htm
Now produce someone from Hockey Canada who will implicate people involved in a conspiracy to control the outcomes of various international events, please.
It reads like a Cold War propaganda piece from the yellow press.
So the guy had some secret document in his desk for 18 years that he later smuggled to the US, then waited another 13 years to reveal it...
That does not have the rosters but indicates that CSKA's top players played, although it says that their effort was somewhat in question.
What government did that?
Substitute freedom with money and you have the answer.
Obviously more attention to international hockey means less to league play.
After Canada tied the 8th game of the 72 series but before Henderson's goal, the Soviets notified the Canadian contingent they would be claiming victory on the basis of goal differential. Some Russians have continued to claim victory on the basis of goal differential, as untenable as that claim is. By the time the 1976 Canada Cup took place, the Soviets had also won 5 out the 8 games of the first Super Series against the NHL, for what that was worth, since the Soviets had sent heavily reinforced versions of their two then-dominant club teams, CSKA and Krylya Sovetov.
To clarify my comment, the doctrine of Soviet hockey supremacy was more of a general domestic position for internal consumption, because of its cardinal importance for propaganda purposes to the political doctrine of communist superiority over capitalism. I don't think the Soviets emphasized that position externally.
Yes punished by receiving a major state award in 1972.
You asked for a source, I provided it. You are free to take issue with the Finnish source if you wish. Note, however, that the source states only that Firsov was left off the '72 team because of his earlier dealings with the NHL. It does not claim that he faced any other repercussions as a result of those dealings. What the NHL did with Hull was very similar in that he was banned from participating because he had "defected" to the WHA.
Firsov scored 11 goals in 10 games at the 1971 WC and led the league in scoring in 1970-71 with 33 goals. In stark contrast, Firsov was a non-factor at the 1972 Olympics with only 2 goals and his scoring output fell precipitously to 17 goals in the 1971-72 season. The latter statistics were the ones that immediately preceded the Summit Series. He never again returned to his dominating form after 1971 and never again played for the national team at the world level after the 1972 Olympics. These are facts, not "false assumptions".
I saw Firsov play many times in the 60s here in Canada against Junior A and Senior A teams and he was a great hockey player, the prototype of the small, fast Russian forward. I saw him score 6 goals once against a junior team in Ottawa.
Thanks for the great clippings! I was at the Toronto game and can say that their effort in Toronto was certainly not lacking. It had the atmosphere of a playoff game. The Marlies were up for the game and played very well offensively, the Soviet defence couldn't handle their speed. The Soviets were lucky to win.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaa
Registered User
- May 16, 2009
- 12,252
- 1,585
That is all you could find??
It reads like a Cold War propaganda piece from the yellow press.
So the guy had some secret document in his desk for 18 years that he later smuggled to the US, then waited another 13 years to reveal it...
That would be one more reliable piece of evidence than you have provided regarding a conspiracy to control officiating or the outcomes by Alan Eagleson or anyone else in Hockey Canada. Please continue your quest to find a Canadian willing to speak to your conspiracy, as I will re-think my position.
Until that time, since 1>0, I win.
Or basically no pay (either in money or human rights), in the case of a communist country. This was the government of the USSR. If I wanted to leave Canada, I could.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
There's another comment that is appropriate here. I never saw the Soviet national team or a top club team like CSKA while touring North America put in an effort that was "somewhat in question". We in Canada likened them to robots, playing at the same high level all the time, with little apparent emotional intensity. That was a major reason we feared the Soviets. We didn't want to become robots as that disposition was very alien to us.
As a consequence of this consistency of effort, the Soviet teams never missed an opportunity to run up the score against a weaker opponent, even in exhibition games. If you look over the scores from games played by the team in the mid to late 60's you will see plenty of 11-1, 10-0 drubbings of inferior teams like Senior A teams here in Canada who were completely uncompetitive with the Soviet national team by that time. Until the early 60's, Canada sent its Senior A champions to the Word Championships and Olympics. The players were mostly part-time beer league players who were firemen or smelter workers by day. The last time they were able to beat the Soviets at a World Championship was 1961.
Since the Soviets could not play pros, they played against Senior A and Junior A amateurs when touring Canada. Sometimes the games were competitive, but when the Canadian team was not, the Soviets showed no mercy. This was another thing that was alien and frightening to Canadians. It was then, and still is, regarded as unsportsmanlike to run up the score against an inferior opponent. Canadian teams sometimes have to do it, in tournament play where goal differential is a tie-breaker, but Canadian players hate to do it. Perhaps the Soviets did this also because they had trouble finding good competition and needed to keep their quick-strike offensive machine well-oiled for when the games counted more. All the same, it was alien to our way of thinking and of playing the game.
As the '72 series approached, there were few ways of comparing the abilities of NHL pros with Soviet national team players, few points of reference. YMB29 loves to point time and again to the view of Dick Beddoes (wrongly stated by him to have been Red Fisher) as to how the series would turn out. The Canadian pros seem to have bought in to this malarkey; I went to an intra-squad game just before the series began and they were laughing and joking around, hardly taking the thing seriously. They were also badly out of shape in terms of conditioning.
The serious Canadian fans who followed the international game were, however, scared silly of this series. The colour commentator on the television broadcasts with Foster Hewitt was, I think, Brian Conacher, who played with the national team when it was a collegiate team in the 60's. He did not underestimate the Soviets. I went to NHL games and also to exhibition games involving the "Russians" and would also compare scores where there were reference points, such as where an NHL club played its junior affiliate in an exhibition game and the Soviet nationals also played that junior team.
Based on those points of comparison, the Soviet team was much to be feared. Whereas the NHL club had struggled to beat the junior team, say 4-1 or 4-2, the Soviets had beaten them 8-2 or 9-1. Watching them in action, I could see that if anything they were faster than most NHL teams and played a more unified team game. As much as I hoped the pros would defeat the Soviets easily, I didn't think that would happen. Frankly, I was worried even before the series started that the Soviets would beat the NHL. And I wasn't the only one who thought that way.
You have to understand that international hockey was very low on the pecking order in terms of fan interest in Canada until the Summit Series was held. Canadian teams had not done very well over the previous decade at WC and Olympics, with only bronze medals to show from the national team program under Father David Bauer. It was an amateur program, and the country was in love with pros. Since we couldn't send our pros to compete, little attention was paid to our amateurs beyond a hard-core group. That all changed dramatically during and after the 72 series, but the disinterest in international hockey leading up to the series led in my view to media ignorance and serious underestimation of just how far hockey had progressed, not only the Soviet Union but in Czechoslovakia and to a lesser extent Sweden.
I am fairly new to this forum, but I am disappointed that it is not a place for more rounded, even handed debate. It is disheartening to see various posters simply attempt to knock down others' arguments solely to support their view that their side was infallible. That is not reality and it is fortunate for the game that neither the players nor the coaches during this incredible time period for hockey, never to be repeated again, took such a small-minded view. They openly admired aspects of the other team and sought to learn. Both sides changed their respective games dramatically as a result of these exchanges. And the game of hockey is the better for it. I don't know if it makes sense for me to continue to participate here given the juvenile approach to discussion adopted by some posters but I guess we'll see.
In my opinion, the Soviet national team was the best hockey team in the world for a long time. Canada did not have a national team composed of the best pros in hockey that played 40 odd games per year and practiced year round, including in league games where the majority of the roster was concentrated. So there was simply no comparable team in Canada. The closest that there was would have been the Stanley Cup champions each year and there was never any competition between any of the major European national teams and the Stanley Cup champion. That was mostly attributable to Bunny Ahearn's exclusion of Canadian pros from competing in IIHF events. It's too bad. All we have to go on is the infrequent competitions where Canada was able to send its best, or close to its best. In those, the Soviets gave Canada's best all they could handle on every occasion, and on a few occasions more. I am happy that Canada did as well as it did in these competitions, because it did not fare very well against this team when it was unable to send its very best.
In my opinion, a good deal of the Soviet success came from the innovations of Anatoli Tarasov. He was a genius. He cross-bred hockey with soccer and other dry-land sports to create a flowing, attacking game where the players were continuously in motion and often passing to seemingly vacant areas of ice which were to be occupied by the assigned forward in a split second. Players were frequently seen skating in tandem at high speed, say, in clearing the zone. Players had tremendous upper body strength and were able to check opponents along the boards without running them through the boards violently. They could not afford to take time and space away from their assigned positions by doing so or to disrupt their speed which was needed to participate in the various formations. This style not only was a treat to watch but an opponent who was unable to stop them from freewheeling would end up getting killed on the scoreboard.
It took a long time for Canadian teams to learn how to disrupt and counter this flowing attacking style, and until that happened there were more than a few embarrassing shellackings. Even the best teams got undressed from time to time when they stood around.
This happened to the NHL team in the deciding game of the Challenge Cup. It actually started happening in the second half of the second game. The series started out with the NHL team dictating the style of play, resulting an a fairly slow-paced, North American style hockey game, much like an NHL game, with a lot of checking. This prevented the Soviets from getting untracked. Midway through game two, with the NHL threatening to sweep the series, the NHL started to try to protect the lead and went into a shell. Cue Tarasov. The Soviets suddenly found themselves with free ice and the tide began to turn.
Game 3 was in my opinion one of the most perfect games played by a Soviet side. I mean this in the sense that they were as perfect defensively as they were offensively. They were at full tempo throughout with the NHL still standing around and swatting at air. Canadian players had not yet learned the secret to slowing the Big Red Machine down. What impressed me most was that most of the Canadian attacks fizzled without a scoring chance as the Soviet defence was able to match them stride for stride, coolly check the puck away and do the swing door passes out of the zone into another attack for which the NHLers were often ill prepared or outmanned.
It was at this time that the Soviets were also literally blasting Canada's WC teams out of the water from time to time. (It has to be noted of course that Canada's teams were selected only from players whose teams had missed the NHL playoffs -- no WHA players were eligible either -- and since so few teams missed the NHL playoffs in those days it was accordingly at most a Canada D or E team.) In Canada's return to the WC in 1977, the Soviets lambasted Canada (aka Team Ugly) 11-1 in the first round and 8-1 in the final round. Yet the Soviets only placed third. Canada beat every other team in the tournament. What this tells us is that the players on that team, not one of whom had been good enough to play for Canada in '72 or '76, had no answer yet for Tarasov-style hockey. The Swedes, who beat the Soviets twice 5-1 and 3-1, did, as did the Czechs who also beat them for gold.
The Canadians came back and won the bronze the following year and put up a somewhat better fight against the Soviets but still lost 4-2 and 5-1. In 1979 the Canadians lost 5-2 and 9-2 to what was one of the most dominant Soviet teams ever. This was essentially the Challenge Cup roster, so do the math.
In 1980 the Canadian entry lost to the Soviets in an 8-5 run and gun contest. They were starting to get the hang of it, but using the wrong strategy.
In 1981 the Canadians finally tied the Soviets 4-4 in the final round after being trounced 8-2 in the first round. Again, this Soviet team was at the top of its game and this carried into the 1981 Canada Cup. The next year, Canada's entry coached by Don Cherry played them quite closely, losing 4-3 and 6-4 but beating everyone else and winning the bronze.
My cousin had the honour of playing on 3 of these Canadian WC teams as well as captaining the 1978 WJC team with Gretzky et al. and it has been a blast to talk with him about the games with the Soviets over the years. He was responsible for creating and running all the hockey scenes in the movie Miracle, which basically take up the last hour of the movie, and I think did a great job re-enacting the Soviet style of play at the time in those scenes. I don't think any other North American could have done a better job because he had obviously studied their style of play and set playbook even more closely than I thought he had. He had certainly played them enough times during the relevant time period to qualify for the part.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,938
With all due respect to your account, I'll stick with Inge Hammarström of the Maple Leafs who was also an eyewitness and came up with a more plausible evaluation: "Put yourself in the shoes of Tretiak or Kharlamov. Already this season they have played Team Canada, the Czechs and the Swedes. They have been fighting for first place in their own league. How seriously can they regard a game against juniors?" (Quote from "The Phoenix", link posted by Uncle Rotter.) Kharlamov "showed no interest in routine defensive chores" (according to the report by the Toronto Star Syndicate printed in "The Phoenix"); Tretiak looked very ordinary (Hammarström: "Everyone knows Tretiak is a great goalie. It has been proven. But tonight, he's not great.") - there obviously was a lack of effort. On the other side, the juniors were highly motivated, facing the game of their lives.
Your assertation that the Soviets always played with the same constant level of effort, like robots, is about as appropriate as the stereotype that the Canadians were in general nothing but goons. I don't doubt your subjective sincerity, it obviously appeared like that to the eyes of North Americans, but it hardly applies to those games against junior teams during the "Super Series" tours.
Just as the Soviets thought fighting was unsportsmanlike. Clash of cultures.
Credit to you. If you weren't the only one, then you still were one of very few. The sentiment of Dick Beddoes was shared by the majority of journalists and observers in North America. Even Father David Bauer (who certainly followed the international game) expected "total victory" from the Canadians.
In North America Ahearne is viewed as a kind of European arch villain, but it should be noted that it wasn't him who actually kept the Canadian pros out of IIHF events, but rather the president of the IOC, Avery Brundage from Chicago.
Last edited:
Anderson9
Registered User
Yes punished by receiving a major state award in 1972.
A golden handshake to let him know his services are no longer needed.
Tarasov, who was succumbing to senility by then and thus making an increasing number of daft decisions, wanted him to stay. It's an established fact that he had a personal weakness for Firsov who was definitely past his prime. I remember feeling embarrassed at his deteriorated game as a 2nd line center in 1973 and in several games of the next season... before he finally hung up his skates...Old age tended to come around too soon in Soviet sport in case u don't know. Want me to explain why Soviet stars had to quit so early?
Yes which would mean execution...
Not being court martialed and shot. Just potentially sentenced to oblivion. To being a nonperson (G. Orwell)
That is all you could find??It reads like a Cold War propaganda piece from the yellow press. So the guy had some secret document in his desk for 18 years that he later smuggled to the US, then waited another 13 years to reveal it...
What are you trying to prove? East Germany ended its days, unlike Russia's kgb their Stasi counterparts were lustrated, their practices brought to light, files declassified, including the East Gerrman drug-induced sporting empire. You remind me of a paid moron in the KGB-run British daily, Morning Star, whose propaganda twaddle was headlined, "DRUGS, STEROIDS? NO! TRAINING!" in a response to media accusations of massive drug use by E. German swimmers. Which means you identify with them do you? Eh cute)
And lastly what gave you an idea you're a connoisseur of Soviet Hockey? If you want advice on the Tarassov-era hockey, will you kindly address me personally, I'll be pleased to answer.
Last edited:
Dipsy Doodle
Rent A Barn
- May 28, 2006
- 76,563
- 21,101
Don't get disheartened. If you want civil, thought-provoking discussion about the history of the game, the History of Hockey sub-forum is where you want to go:
http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126
Most every other section of this site devolves into pissing contests. But that one's a keeper.
What Russians?
Don't know about heavily reinforced...
Kryl'ya was somewhat reinforced with four players from Spartak, but CSKA only added Vasiliev and Maltsev.
And you know this from where?
The same thing can be said about Canada.
Well if those dealings happened, he would have been considered an unreliable person, and surely would not have received such an award.
He did not play for the national team after those Olympics probably for the same reason he did not play in the Summit Series, because Tarasov was not the coach.
So you expect us to believe a dominating player can deteriorate so much in a year?
The only one with conspiracy talk here is you.
Yes I am sure you know a lot about that.
So you continue to provide laughable sources...
Wikipedia is a useless source for such information. I edited that article before so I know. If you look at the article's history I tried to get rid of some of the worst crap there, but that is hard to do because of people like you who go by outdated Cold War propaganda.
That is what one of the articles says, not me.
When did I say that?
You can't say that about some of the teams, like the one sent in 82 for example.
The games were not as close as the scores, and I don't think Cherry was the coach.
Yes and just before he is sent off to Siberia...
Because they got destroyed by steroids? I am not interested in your theories...
How can you call someone who is in his 50's senile?
Yes you mean just like Balderis, when he quit CSKA...
And you remind me of a moron working for Voice of America or Radio Liberty during the Cold War...
Yes we know about East Germany because it has been basically taken over by another country and most of its secrets are declassified. This has never happened to another country that has been dominant in sports. Who knows what others are hiding... However you think that only communist countries are capable of mass steroid use, and the countries with the most advanced pharmaceutical capabilities are not...
I don't claim to be anything, just that I know enough to point out some of the biased and false crap...
Anderson9
Registered User
In 1982 Canada was coached by Marshall Johnstone. Luckily for them, the loser Dave King wasn't allowed to take the helm. Both games were very close and when in the second encounter Kevin Lowe tied the scoring at 4-4 off a Bob Gainey beauty feed Canada took over and looked like getting the GWG. Makarov thwarted them by burying a fluke wrister directly off a faceoff and in a matter of a minute Fetisov led the rush and scored an insurance goal.
Unlike numerous other occasions when the Canadians iced a listless squads for IIHF WHCs, this Gretzky-led Team Canada looked motivated and highly competitive and could have won the WC had it had better chemistry and time enough to acquire cohesiveness, cooperation, teamwork - something that Soviets had always in abundance.
YMB27, I must hand it to you for nerve. You wanna have me searching for proof of what others know to be known facts, which extensive use of performance enhancers in the USSR is?Because they got destroyed by steroids? I am not interested in your theories...
How can you call someone who is in his 50's senile?
Use of steroids, FYI has always been part and parcel of any totalitarian regime’s policy. Initially suffering from an inferiority complex the regime uses elite sports as a showcase of its (socialist) achievement.
On to Tarasov. To be more precise, he was not exactly 'senile' at the time, just inept as NT coach, ineptitude finally finding proof in his consent to taking the job as CSKA soccer team’s coach 3 years on… What came next is universal knowledge.
Yes you mean just like Balderis, when he quit CSKA...
Partly so. He lost his spot on the NT. He only represented SU once since he quit CSKA. At WC-1983.
"remind me of a moron working for Voice of America" Kindly tell me where did that 'moron' go wrong? What did that moron misdiagnose describing life and policies of the USSR?
And poor poor East Germany - what historical injustice!
A proud smaller country conquered and gobbled up by a bigger one! If it hadn’t been for a unified Germany we would all be lapping up tales of great and clean athletes of the Warsaw bloc. Well US Olympians weren’t necessarily 'clean' but being # one at sports wasn’t part of their political doctrine. As a result, they were unfailingly trounced by E. Germany and Soviet Union hell bent on proving a superiority of Communism over Capitalism.WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA THAT EAST GERMAN SPORTS PHARMACOLOGY was INFERIOR TO THAT OF THE USSR? Die DDR ceased to exist, totalitarian CCCP didn't, that's the only difference.
Anderson9
Registered User
Not eхactly so. The HOH subforum becomes an arena for bickering in exactly the same way, whenever the OP brings up Russo-Canadian issues
Ad
Upcoming events
-
HC Dynamo Pardubice @ Ocelari Trinec - Pardubice leads series 3-2Wagers: 2Staked: $50.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Tappara Tampere @ Pelicans Lahti - Tappara leads series 2-1Wagers: 3Staked: $134.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
Eisbaren Berlin @ Pinguins Bremerhaven - Eisbaren Berlin leads series 3-1Wagers: 3Staked: $95.00Event closes- Updated:
-
BET ON ONLY ONE HORSE Bewitch Stakes (Gr. 3) - KEENELAND RACE 8Wagers: 6Staked: $2,300.00Event closes- Updated: