1979 Challenge Cup discussion thread

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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What??? NO ONE HAS ANYTHING ON THE LINE???? You talking about what exactly?

Me I don't consider international events played always in the same country with home referees.

Do you think Brazil would have been world champions in the 50's 60's if the WorldCup would always have been in England with English refs? No

But everybody would still consider them the best...like they did with CCCP hockey.
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
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Remember something everyone here with all the odds in Canada's favour their fake wins always came by one-goal OT while USSR won 7-3 6-0 8-1 etc...
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

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May 16, 2009
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Yes they and I admire the Gretzky Coffey Savard etc. What they didn't admire was the Clarke-Koharski-Eagleson...

1972 the thing people forget was that by game 6 USSR was leading 3-1-1 and were one toe-win away from winning it. It's 100% proven that at least 2 Canadians guys conspired and committed the crime of injuring the best Soviet player on purpose during this game 6 putting him out of the series.

Sure you could look at it as a victory(1972) but OBJECTIVELY no one with Dignity and Price(as Cherry likes too say) would say that. Canada was suppose to win all 8 games or at worst 7 games and actually it came down to you injuring on purpose the best player in game 6 when you were CLEARLY DOWN FOR THE PIN...

1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively againts.

But unlike others I can acknowledge what was great about Canadian Hockey then but I sure don't turn a blind eye to those who were there to sabotage hockey and fair play...

That's why you should never forget that in no other sport or country someone would have selective memory and would try to tell you without lying that they consider playing 80% at home with home refs and everything isn't as close to fixing sports(wrestling) as it comes...

Canada is #1 now but they were a good #2 before.

You and your conspiracies. They make me laugh.

Here's mine: I discount all Soviet wins in the Olympics and World Championships because of the Eastern European-based conspiracy to make sure Europe won more medals. Plus, all European hockey players were involved in state-sanctioned doping programs.

Do you see how easy that was?

I don't believe any of it (well, maybe the drug thing somewhat :naughty:), but it was really easy to type, though impossible to prove.

This is pretty much hopeless.
 

New User Name

Registered User
Jan 2, 2008
12,863
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What??? NO ONE HAS ANYTHING ON THE LINE???? You talking about what exactly?

Me I don't consider international events played always in the same country with home referees.

Do you think Brazil would have been world champions in the 50's 60's if the WorldCup would always have been in England with English refs? No

But everybody would still consider them the best...like they did with CCCP hockey.

if championship games always played in Brazil, would Brazil always win?
 

Pushkin

Registered User
Aug 29, 2010
131
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Well those are easy to prove actually:Koharsky Clark-Ferguson... there's video evidence and text evidence in the 1st and in the 2nd both suspects admitted their crime...And in the 3rd case well didn't Eagleson went to jail? So there you have it 1972-1987 it's actually well proven. USSR WON

Brazil since they were easily the best probably would have won all but maybe one WorldCup then yes...And if they were using their own refs also they would have won all of them yes! At home with their refs they sure would not have lost 8-1...
 

Pushkin

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Aug 29, 2010
131
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So too finish this up USSR dominated the best amateurs and USSR dominated the best Canada had to offer almost everytime on their rinks-refs...

USSR=HOCKEY DYNASTY
 

doakacola*

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Feb 12, 2009
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Well probably Canada could have been better if they had trained all year long together. The thing is back then coaching was awful in Canada...Look at the garbage horrible hockey almost every nhl team played back then...

USSR dominated European-World-Olympic hockey that's a fact and the other fact is they dominated Canada and Nhl Clubs almost every time and were vastly superior in hockey skills. The rest is just "WHAT IFS"...

Hockey in 1975 in Canada was about brutality and intimidation Hockey in Canada in 2010 is about Soviet Style skilled hockey + the efficient all around Canadian game...Crosby Toews have nothing to do with the goons who represented Canada during the USSR dominance...

1972 Canada

D - Orr, Park and Savard and you're telling me thats not supreme skill?

F - Esposito, Ratelle, Hull, Mikita, Mahovolich, Mahovolich, Perreault, Cournoyer, Gilbert, Henderson, Dionne - Please don't tell me there wasn't flat out great talent on Canada.

Not having Orr & Hull available impacted Canada enormously.
 

doakacola*

Registered User
Feb 12, 2009
9,263
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Yes they and I admire the Gretzky Coffey Savard etc. What they didn't admire was the Clarke-Koharski-Eagleson...

1972 the thing people forget was that by game 6 USSR was leading 3-1-1 and were one toe-win away from winning it. It's 100% proven that at least 2 Canadians guys conspired and committed the crime of injuring the best Soviet player on purpose during this game 6 putting him out of the series.

Sure you could look at it as a victory(1972) but OBJECTIVELY no one with Dignity and Price(as Cherry likes too say) would say that. Canada was suppose to win all 8 games or at worst 7 games and actually it came down to you injuring on purpose the best player in game 6 when you were CLEARLY DOWN FOR THE PIN...

1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively againts.

But unlike others I can acknowledge what was great about Canadian Hockey then but I sure don't turn a blind eye to those who were there to sabotage hockey and fair play...

That's why you should never forget that in no other sport or country someone would have selective memory and would try to tell you without lying that they consider playing 80% at home with home refs and everything isn't as close to fixing sports(wrestling) as it comes...

Canada is #1 now but they were a good #2 before.

:laugh::

You couldn't beat US insurance agents in 1960 (Cleary brothers were real live insurance brokers) and NCAA college kids in 1980, thats 2 out of 6 Golds, your claim to any type of dominance expires by those two losses alone. You lost to Insurance agents and a mix of junior aged and 22 year olds, ok anything you say.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
12
The Soviets attempted to organized another '72 style series, but the Canadians were not interested in any series against the Soviets that would not be played on Canadian rinks.

I had heard that the Soviets lobbied for years to keep NHLers out of IIHF tournaments, but I had never heard that one. Can you cite a source?
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
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I love it when Russian / USSR fans call us cheaters, it just shows what a lack of honour they have.

Believe of us what you will.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Registered User
May 16, 2009
12,252
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I love it when Russian / USSR fans call us cheaters, it just shows what a lack of honour they have.

Believe of us what you will.

Just remember, as I try to do, it is a minority of their fans, just like there is a minority of Canadian fans that act the same way.

The truth is, both countries have a lot to be proud of in terms of international hockey.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,532
21,073
Well those are easy to prove actually:Koharsky Clark-Ferguson... there's video evidence and text evidence in the 1st and in the 2nd both suspects admitted their crime...And in the 3rd case well didn't Eagleson went to jail? So there you have it 1972-1987 it's actually well proven. USSR WON

Brazil since they were easily the best probably would have won all but maybe one WorldCup then yes...And if they were using their own refs also they would have won all of them yes! At home with their refs they sure would not have lost 8-1...

You have a way of flipping between arguments when you're pinned down on one or the other.
 

Grant McCagg

@duhduhduh
Dec 13, 2010
4,032
32
1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

Canadians should have won the tie game in Winnipeg based on play, and the first game in Russia where they lost a 2-0 lead thanks in large part to some questionable penalty calls....the Series could very well have been 6-2 Canada, and that was without the best player in the game in Orr and two of the best forwards in Howe and Hull. Include those guys and in most people's objective view on this side of the planet at least the Soviets may have won once... the USSR had more than enough chances to put us away with Kharlamov and didn't..Canada didn't get to play any games with any of those players - quite a difference.


1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

Please...that was more like our D team. Best players for Canada were in their 40's and still came damn close to tying the series if not for a joke of a call by Soviet timekeepers/officials when several seconds were run off the clock, and a goal by Hull was disallowed. That wasn't your B team in 1976...it wasn't like you sent players from your second division...you were simply going through a down period...similar to what Canada would between 1979 and 1981 - accept it for what it is.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

In two games...only time you've "owned" us...try doing it over 7 or 8 games some time..you never have and never will. Canada lacked top goaltending at those tournaments for various reasons..also didn't help in 1981 when two of the teams top 3 forwards in Perreault and Lafleur were injured before the finals. But yeah... a couple of times in a two or three-game series you won when Canada was suffering a down period much like Russia from 1976-78..

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

Yep - we won...and we weren't supposed to come close.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

LOL - ok comrade - blame it on refs..... the worst officiating in the history of the game took place in Russia during Canada-Russia games...pot calling the kettle black. The officiating in Russia in 1972 was the worst travesty ever. Try googling the name Josef Kompalla sometime. From 1974 on for many years Canadian teams dealt with the horrificly biased officiating of Victor Dombrowski.



We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

Your point being what? 75 per cent of the best players in CCCP played on one team, the Red Army, the other 25 per cent were on Dynamo....wow..you were able to beat the mediocre NHL teams a few times..when you played the best in the Habs and Flyers om 76 the result was a little different though wasn't it? Even left the ice because a few of your guys got some booboos...acted like wimps and were a disgrace.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

Agreed

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Irrelevant

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

Amazing teams? A collection of guy just eliminated from the playoffs who never played together..not even a B team really..... as for the Olympics..we could spend hours debating this,,,,the Red Army had soldiers who just happened to play hockey so they were amateurs....okay...we never bought it but there was nothing we could do about it as the Russian bear had its nose up the IOC and IIHF's butts. You ere so great that you lost to the US in 1980...

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively against.

When Canada has had its best - Russia has usually lost. It's indisputable. Canada won in 1972, 76, 84, 87, and 91, and finished second in 1981. The USSR won in 1979 and 1981. In 1976 the Soviets finished third, in 1991 the mighty USSR was fifth out of six teams. You used to be a close second back in the USSR days, since then you've been in the running for second or third but nowhere near Canada. You've never dominated Canada's best and never will.
 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Registered User
May 16, 2009
12,252
1,585
1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

Canadians should have won the tie game in Winnipeg based on play, and the first game in Russia where they lost a 2-0 lead thanks in large part to some questionable penalty calls....the Series could very well have been 6-2 Canada, and that was without the best player in the game in Orr and two of the best forwards in Howe and Hull. Include those guys and in most people's objective view on this side of the planet at least the Soviets may have won once... the USSR had more than enough chances to put us away with Kharlamov and didn't..Canada didn't get to play any games with any of those players - quite a difference.


1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

Please...that was more like our D team. Best players for Canada were in their 40's and still came damn close to tying the series if not for a joke of a call by Soviet timekeepers/officials when several seconds were run off the clock, and a goal by Hull was disallowed. That wasn't your B team in 1976...it wasn't like you sent players from your second division...you were simply going through a down period...similar to what Canada would between 1979 and 1981 - accept it for what it is.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

In two games...only time you've "owned" us...try doing it over 7 or 8 games some time..you never have and never will. Canada lacked top goaltending at those tournaments for various reasons..also didn't help in 1981 when two of the teams top 3 forwards in Perreault and Lafleur were injured before the finals. But yeah... a couple of times in a two or three-game series you won when Canada was suffering a down period much like Russia from 1976-78..

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

Yep - we won...and we weren't supposed to come close.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

LOL - ok comrade - blame it on refs..... the worst officiating in the history of the game took place in Russia during Canada-Russia games...pot calling the kettle black. The officiating in Russia in 1972 was the worst travesty ever. Try googling the name Josef Kompalla sometime. From 1974 on for many years Canadian teams dealt with the horrificly biased officiating of Victor Dombrowski.



We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

Your point being what? 75 per cent of the best players in CCCP played on one team, the Red Army, the other 25 per cent were on Dynamo....wow..you were able to beat the mediocre NHL teams a few times..when you played the best in the Habs and Flyers om 76 the result was a little different though wasn't it? Even left the ice because a few of your guys got some booboos...acted like wimps and were a disgrace.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

Agreed

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Irrelevant

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

Amazing teams? A collection of guy just eliminated from the playoffs who never played together..not even a B team really..... as for the Olympics..we could spend hours debating this,,,,the Red Army had soldiers who just happened to play hockey so they were amateurs....okay...we never bought it but there was nothing we could do about it as the Russian bear had its nose up the IOC and IIHF's butts. You ere so great that you lost to the US in 1980...

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively against.

When Canada has had its best - Russia has usually lost. It's indisputable. Canada won in 1972, 76, 84, 87, and 91, and finished second in 1981. The USSR won in 1979 and 1981. In 1976 the Soviets finished third, in 1991 the mighty USSR was fifth out of six teams. You used to be a close second back in the USSR days, since then you've been in the running for second or third but nowhere near Canada. You've never dominated Canada's best and never will.

Great responses, soon to be followed up by Pushkin's....

"The refs and Alan Eagleson cheated in all of Canada's wins.

USSR is the best!"

I'm sorry you probably wasted your time putting all that together for him, but I enjoyed it.:handclap:
 

YMB29

Registered User
Sep 25, 2006
422
2
I had heard that the Soviets lobbied for years to keep NHLers out of IIHF tournaments, but I had never heard that one. Can you cite a source?
Where is your source?


Equal in terms of what? The number of players and teams?
Developing the best players.
Again you are not clear. Do you mean developing a greater number of "best" (elite?) players?


I love it when Russian / USSR fans call us cheaters, it just shows what a lack of honour they have.

Believe of us what you will.
Well I would not call "you" (who is us?) cheaters, but you can't ignore the way Canadian teams got some of their historic wins.
More often it is Canadian fans calling the Soviet players and officials cheaters, for supposed things like conspiring to keep the NHL out of IIHF tournaments, using steroids, unfairly using development and training methods that were not possible in North America, and so on.
 

YMB29

Registered User
Sep 25, 2006
422
2
Canadians should have won the tie game in Winnipeg based on play, and the first game in Russia where they lost a 2-0 lead thanks in large part to some questionable penalty calls....
By questionable calls you mean calls that referees in North America would not call?


the Series could very well have been 6-2 Canada, and that was without the best player in the game in Orr and two of the best forwards in Howe and Hull. Include those guys and in most people's objective view on this side of the planet at least the Soviets may have won once... the USSR had more than enough chances to put us away with Kharlamov and didn't..Canada didn't get to play any games with any of those players - quite a difference.
Well the Soviets also were missing some key players like Firsov.


Please...that was more like our D team. Best players for Canada were in their 40's and still came damn close to tying the series if not for a joke of a call by Soviet timekeepers/officials when several seconds were run off the clock, and a goal by Hull was disallowed.
It was a Canadian referee who made the call...
It was not a Canadian A team but calling it a D team is stretching it.


That wasn't your B team in 1976...it wasn't like you sent players from your second division...you were simply going through a down period...similar to what Canada would between 1979 and 1981 - accept it for what it is.
No many of the best Soviet players did not play at that tournament, so it can't be called an A team.


In two games...only time you've "owned" us...try doing it over 7 or 8 games some time..you never have and never will. Canada lacked top goaltending at those tournaments for various reasons..also didn't help in 1981 when two of the teams top 3 forwards in Perreault and Lafleur were injured before the finals. But yeah...
Lafleur was injured??
And I think you are exaggerating the goaltending problem.


LOL - ok comrade - blame it on refs..... the worst officiating in the history of the game took place in Russia during Canada-Russia games...pot calling the kettle black. The officiating in Russia in 1972 was the worst travesty ever. Try googling the name Josef Kompalla sometime. From 1974 on for many years Canadian teams dealt with the horrificly biased officiating of Victor Dombrowski.
Canadian fans always whine about Kompalla and Dombrowski, but fail to point out anything specific.


Your point being what? 75 per cent of the best players in CCCP played on one team, the Red Army, the other 25 per cent were on Dynamo....wow..you were able to beat the mediocre NHL teams a few times..when you played the best in the Habs and Flyers om 76 the result was a little different though wasn't it? Even left the ice because a few of your guys got some booboos...acted like wimps and were a disgrace.
Well three uncalled cheapshots in like a minute was not a disgrace?
CSKA won a lot against elite NHL teams too. Most of the other Soviet teams also have a winning record playing in North America.


Amazing teams? A collection of guy just eliminated from the playoffs who never played together..not even a B team really.....
Some of those Canadian teams were even better than B.


as for the Olympics..we could spend hours debating this,,,,the Red Army had soldiers who just happened to play hockey so they were amateurs....okay...we never bought it but there was nothing we could do about it as the Russian bear had its nose up the IOC and IIHF's butts.
How do you know? You went up there too?


When Canada has had its best - Russia has usually lost. It's indisputable. Canada won in 1972, 76, 84, 87, and 91, and finished second in 1981. The USSR won in 1979 and 1981. In 1976 the Soviets finished third, in 1991 the mighty USSR was fifth out of six teams.
Typical Canadian homer response. So it only matters when Canada has its best? The USSR did not have its best in 76 and 91. How many times must this be pointed out? The other Canadian wins are questionable or controversial, especially in 87 when the refereeing bias was obvious (link 1, link 2).
 
Last edited:

hammerwielder

Registered User
Jan 6, 2008
205
0
Canada
Well the Soviets also were missing some key players like Firsov.

Talking about 1972 here. Good one. Not having Anatoli Firsov the equivalent prejudice to not having Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull. That's funny.

In any case. Firsov wasn't used because he was too old and too slow. Just like Rags Ragulin, who did play and was benched after his impression of a pylon was deemed too realistic. Who are you going to put next on the list, Starshinov?

No many of the best Soviet players did not play at that tournament, so it can't be called an A team.

Talking about 1976 here. I'm also kind of sick of hearing this excuse so I am going to set the facts out and let people judge for themselves. First, the Soviets would never ice a team with a hammer and sickle and "CCCP" on the sweater that they didn't think represented their best chance of winning. If anyone was the Vince Lombardis of hockey, it was the Soviets. It was the height of the cold war and the mission was to win every time they stepped onto the ice in international play to show that communism was superior to the West. Neither the Olympics nor the WC was held in the enemy heartland, North America. This tournament was. It was important, make no mistake.

The Soviets had just been beaten at the World Championships by Czechoslovakia after squeaking by a flu-riddled Czech team at the Olympics. Since the Czechs were going to use the same powerful squad at the Canada Cup, and the NHL and WHA had set aside their differences for the sole purpose of fielding the best team that had ever put on a Canada jersey, the Soviets felt forced to take a calculated risk. They left some of their veterans at home (e.g. Mikhailov, Petrov and Yakushev -- Kharlamov was badly injured in a car accident, breaking up his unit anyway) and went instead with a group of speedy youngsters, including Balderis, Kapustin, Skvortsov, Aleksander Golikov and Alexandrov as well as young Bilyaletdinov on defence. They still had a strong core of '72 veterans including Tretiak, Lebedev, Lutchenko, Vasiliev, Gusev, Maltsev, Shalimov, Vikulov and Zhluktov to mentor the kids.

It is therefore true is that the team the Soviets iced represented a slightly different style of team, but they did so consciously; they did so only because they thought it would give them the best chance of winning at the time. There are of course rumours of a power struggle between Kulagin and Tikhonov and a revolt against the latter by the players of Mikhailov's generation but until one of the players steps forward and verifies that there was and that it was a factor in player selection they must be treated as unsubstantiated. The Soviet brass also made the usual pre-tournament disclaimers just in case the team lost, such as calling the squad "experimental" and saying the Olympics and WC were their priorities. I don't believe those for a minute. This was their only chance to face and knock off Canada, which did not have pros at the Olympics and was still boycotting the WC. Canada also had its strongest line-up ever, so the possibility of defeat was real, whatever squad the Soviets fielded. The change in roster was in my view a move to counter the quality of the Canadian, Czech and, also relevant, Swedish squads which would now include pros playing in North America such as Salming. The Mikhailov generation had lost to Canada in '72 and had just lost to the Czechs, so why not try something new. Finally, the tournament was to be played on the smaller ice surface, something the Soviet team was relatively inexperienced on in best-on-best competition. It stands to reason that they would have decided to go with the most speed they could put on the ice to counter the increased exposure of their players to hitting given the smaller confines of the rink. The Soviets lived and breathed strategy and tactics.

The Soviets blew out the Americans, as expected, after starting the tournament with a 5-3 loss to the Czechs, but after a 3-3 tie with Sweden complained about biased officiating (sound familiar?). Sweden later self-destructed by losing to Finland, putting them out of the final, while the Czechs edged Canada 1-0 in the penultimate game of the round-robin, gaining the first spot in the final. As a result, the Canada-Soviet game was for the other spot in the final, as the Czechs were already in. It was in effect a knockout semi-final and thus a crucial game. Russia fans seem to forget this.

I was at that game. Canada had an answer for everything the Soviets could throw at them and prevailed 3-1 in a game that really wasn't all that exciting because Orr was able to control the pace of the game whenever he wanted to. You really had to be there.

Thus, it was a Canada-Czech final and after a 6-0 whitewash for Canada in the first game to avenge the 1-0 shutout pitched by Dzurilla in the round-robin, the second game went to OT before Sittler ended it on a pass from Macdonald. Two Leafs -- who would have thunk that. And at the Forum to boot.

Based on the caliber of play I saw, the Czechs were deserving finalists along with Canada. It may have been the greatest Canada team to date, and the only one that included Orr, who was unfortunately playing his last games and was practically crippled.

Now listen up, Russophiles, and listen good: Canada handled the Czechs at that tournament relatively easily, winning in the final 2 games to 0, and the Czechs had just handled the Soviet team with a line-up that you could not dispute included all the best players. It therefore doesn't cut it to suggest the tournament doesn't count, especially when the national team didn't even make it to the final. It is pretty arrogant to ignore the Czechs altogether, which your line of reasoning does.

One other thing deserves mention which you never seem to remember. In alleging you didn't have your best players at this or that tournament, well that argument cuts both ways because the Soviet Union wasn't Russia. As Russia, you would not have had a bunch of players who played significant roles on those teams. Guys like Balderis for example, one the pillars of the late 70's, early 80's Soviet dynasty.

None of this has anything to do with the Challenge Cup, but I for one don't like to see people try to take an historic victory away from what was a truly great Canadian team.

Lafleur was injured??

Talking about 1981 now. Yes, I think what he was referring to was that Lafleur, and also Perreault by the way, were injured for much of the season and hadn't played basically all year to date. It should also be noted that Lafleur had finished a season in which he had not only been on the shelf but had started a steep downward trajectory in output, going from having more than 60 goals in previous seasons to the mid-20's.

I'm not going to rag on poor old Mike Liut. He never played at any other tournament but he's suffered enough.

Canadian fans always whine about Kompalla and Dombrowski, but fail to point out anything specific.

What?? If you want specifics, go read Sinden's book on the '72 series. There's a book full of specifics. I mean, Parise had Lady Byng penalty numbers all career and he was provoked so badly he almost took the guy's head off. These guys were just completely incompetent.

I went to several games in Canada that Dombrowski officiated. He couldn't skate, for one, being rather portly and elderly, and I often wondered how he could the play from back in other team's zone. He also looked like he was supremely indifferent to the fact there was a hockey game going on, and his calls reflected that, being more like random tweets in the space-time continuum than anything having to do with a game.

Baader, Kompalla were in another universe altogether in terms of incompetence, a class by themselves, a league of their own, a -- well, you get the picture. Remember that there were only two officials, period, in international play. Two. Think about how that would work today, where four competent officials still get a lot of things wrong. These two buffoons belonged to the no-contact school of hockey, whistling as an infraction anything that caused a body to fall down onto the ice. The Soviets learned fast. They had tremendous upper body strength and could take a dive whenever they needed a call. The fact that Dumb and Dumber never cottoned on to something so blatant drove the Canadians wild.

In addition, and this represents the clash of cultures, the Soviet, and indeed the European style at the time, was to adapt to this style of officiating by being very good at stickwork that was undetectable and at subtle interference and pick plays. Things like spearing and butt-ending were absolutely prohibited under the unwritten code of conduct in the NHL: engaging in such tactics could earn you a stick in the brain or worse. Anything remotely resembling that behaviour was deal with by dropping the gloves and resolving the matter man to man. If when we were watching a game with the Soviets we saw a Canadian player suddenly and seemingly without provocation go nuts on a Soviet, we knew what had just happened. The unpunished spearing and butt-ending by his Soviet check all the way down the ice had just driven the Canadian over the edge. For more details, again see Sinden's book, which contains numerous real-time anecdotes about this behaviour and how the Canadians had to adapt to it, and to the ghastly refereeing, in order to play any part of the game at full strength.

I am surprised that those of you who are not beneath attacking NHL officials as corrupt would when the shoe is on the other foot defend officials such as these bozos who were so demonstrably incompetent even apart from any question of whether they were corrupt. I know a good way to test this: how many of you would like to trade current international officials for these guys for a gold medal game? Hands up, please.


CSKA won a lot against elite NHL teams too. Most of the other Soviet teams also have a winning record playing in North America.

I have to disagree with your premise here. The Soviet teams that played NHL teams were club teams in name only. As a matter of substance, they were various iterations of the national team. CSKA was basically the national team with some deletions (e.g., Yakushev, Maltsev), and Wings of the Soviet was comprised of those national team members that had been so split off and the other elements of the national team or players that were rotated onto and off the national team: think Soviet Union A and Soviet Union B. For that reason alone, results in games against these Soviet "club" teams must be taken with a large grain of salt. Another factor that must be considered is that the NHL club teams of that era were heavily diluted both by rapid expansion and by the WHA. The caliber of play below the top teams like Montreal and Philadelphia fell off steeply. Several of the Soviets' opponents were expansion teams that still hadn't fought their way out of the league basement. Any notion of parity among NHL club teams was at that time wishful thinking.

A much more realistic barometer of the state of club competition between the Soviets and North American pro hockey, in my view, was the series between the "Soviet All-Stars" (in substance the national B team) and WHA club teams held in 1977-78 and 1978-79. Unlike any of the NHL games against Soviet sides, these games counted in the WHA standings, so there was skin in the game. In the 8 league games that the "Soviet All-Stars" played in 1977-78, the Soviets won 3, lost 4 and tied 1. Here's some trivia for you: Valeri Bragin, coach of the Russian WJC team, played on this Soviet squad.

The Soviets sent over their national B team again in 1978-79 (the WHA's last season) to play league games for points. This time the Soviet All-Stars fared better, winning 4, losing 1 and tying 1 in 6 games. This was a stronger squad on paper.

Around the same time that the national B team was playing WHA club teams the first time around in 1977-78, the Soviet Union national A team was having a series of its own against the Winnipeg Jets and other WHA club teams. The national A team swept 3 games against the Jets in Japan, all by close scores, while the Jets returned the favour by beating the Soviet Union 5-3 on home ice. As far as I know this is the only time a North American club team ever defeated the Soviet Union national team, as this was virtually the only series in which the Soviets put the Soviet Union national team so named against club competition in North America. The Soviet Union played 5 other WHA club teams during this tour and those games were, as might be expected, mismatches -- the Soviets swept the games by fairly lopsided scores, although the club teams did manage to score 14 goals against Tretiak in the 5 games.

It should be mentioned that WHA club teams also played the Soviet Union national team on two other occasions outside of North America: the 1976 and 1977 Izvestia tournament in Moscow. The Jets lost 6-4 in 1976 and the Quebec Nordiques lost 5-3 in 1977. The Jets did beat Finland and tied Sweden in 1976 while losing by a goal to the Czechs, so the Jets' record of 1-2-1 was competitive and respectable for a club team going head to head against elite national teams.

In 1979, the WHA adopted an All-Star game format whereby it pit its All-Stars against Moscow Dynamo. In a much-hyped three-game series, the WHA All-Stars swept all three All-Star games against Dynamo. The games were really fast-paced and skilled affairs. WHA club teams also won 2 of 3 exhibition games against Dynamo for a total of 5 wins and 1 loss in favour of the WHA.

There are other interesting examples of games against Soviet national teams or club teams that are below the radar because the Soviets also played Canadian junior teams and even university teams from time to time. These games were cash cows for a cash-starved Soviet program. In 1973 I went to a game between CSKA and the Toronto Marlboros, the Maple Leafs' junior team, at a packed Maple Leaf Gardens. It was a swashbuckling affair with the game being decided only in the last minute when the Soviets scored to break a 6-6 tie and escape by the skin of their teeth with a 7-6 win. That's right, one goal. More trivia for you: Bruce Boudreau, now coach of Ovechkin, Semin et al. with the Capitals, scored twice on Tretiak in that game and was the best player on the ice. Again, this was no club team: everybody, and I mean everybody, was on that Soviet side -- it was essentially the Summit Series roster.

The games against WHA club teams set above demonstrate the relative parity between Soviet and WHA club teams in meaningful (i.e. points producing) competition, which in my view represents a much better barometer for comparison than the pure exhibition games against NHL club teams. Considering how watered down the talent level was among WHA club teams given the number of teams at the time due to the seven-year existence of the rival leagues, it is not simply possible to portray these games as evidence of Soviet domination. The results are really nothing to crow about from a Soviet standpoint. At the conclusion of the 1979 season, most of the WHA teams disappeared when the league folded and a few teams were merged into the NHL. This eased the dilution of talent somewhat but the NHL was to remain diluted throughout the 1980's by an overabundance of teams relative to the number of world-class players. If the remaining WHA players had been concentrated into the remaining WHA teams and those teams had played the Soviet teams that year, the competition would have been much tougher for the Soviets. As it was, they only held their own against the WHA teams and lost convincingly to the All-Stars, just as WHA club teams -- except for the Jets -- lost convincingly to the Soviet national team aka Big Red Machine.
 
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nitz

Registered User
Jul 27, 2009
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It's funny how every real hockey brain in Canada back then starting by the very best and intelligent players Orr and Gretzky admitted that Canadian Hockey was backward and needing to learn from the Soviets about skills skating passing conditionning etc... The "heart" was there yes but most of the time this was used for injuring players and winning ugly without any sort of glory or credibility...

It's almost a shame that Gretzky's parents left Belarus... Imagine him with those CCCP jerseys! Right now hockey would probably be just as obscure a sport in Canada as it is now in the US...

For the record, it's his grandparents that left Belarus. Walter Gretzky is Canadian.
 

Peter25

Registered User
Sep 20, 2003
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I'm still amazed that Canadians have a nerve to call those 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups was "wins". How can you back up that Canada "won" those tournaments?

In a normal sporting event a "victory" that comes from blatant cheating and referee homerism should be disqualified.

Did Canada ever apologize the Soviet players and team about the refereeing in these tournaments?
 

albator71

Registered User
Jan 12, 2010
4,557
2,363
CANADA
I'm still amazed that Canadians have a nerve to call those 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups was "wins". How can you back up that Canada "won" those tournaments?

In a normal sporting event a "victory" that comes from blatant cheating and referee homerism should be disqualified.

Did Canada ever apologize the Soviet players and team about the refereeing in these tournaments?

I don't give a **** how we won, they only thing that matters to us is winning period and yes in 84 and 87 we won, ah what great victories they were . And by the way what happen in Lake Placid 1980 when a bunch of college kids beat the big red machine??? And when will Russia apologize to Canada for being such cry babies and always blaming the refs for their defeats???
 

hammerwielder

Registered User
Jan 6, 2008
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Canada
I'm still amazed that Canadians have a nerve to call those 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups was "wins". How can you back up that Canada "won" those tournaments?

In a normal sporting event a "victory" that comes from blatant cheating and referee homerism should be disqualified.

Did Canada ever apologize the Soviet players and team about the refereeing in these tournaments?

I will not be baited, I will not be baited, I -- oh the hell with it, you guys deserve this:

Anyone who believes refereeing decides games, let alone entire tournaments, is an idiot, and anyone who believes bad refereeing happens only the games and tournaments they lose is delusional.

I have read a lot of box scores, and not once have I seen one show that a referee scored a goal, made a save, won a face-off, blocked a shot, or did anything else that forms part of the game of hockey.

You are looking entirely through the wrong lens: judgment calls by referees are part of the game, and you can't go anywhere under the rules of hockey and have the result of the game annulled because you don't like them. Bad calls or non-calls happen all the time, are beyond the players' control, and are but one of many imponderables to which players and coaches must adapt and adjust in the course of a hockey game in order to win. Some nights you don't get the bounces, or the calls, and it is what you do to overcome adversity in those instances that determines whether you win or lose. Referees don't make their calls at 20:00 of the third period, but during the game, which is what allows the players in the game suck it up, decide whether they want to win or not, and go out and do whatever it takes to overcome bad bounces, bad luck, bad refereeing, whatever. Canada did just that in the final game of the '72 series, despite perhaps the worst refereeing the world has ever seen. That's what winners do. Winners adapt and win; losers whine.

And another thing: I don't see the players or coaches whining today that the games didn't count. They were there, not you, and they knew then and know now they counted. They acknowledge the result because they know they had the privilege of being a part of a truly sensational hockey event; I was at Copps for all three games of the '87 final, and if you can show me more exciting hockey played at a higher level, I would like to see it. Why demean such a great series in such a pathetic way? No true fan of hockey would ignore all of the effort and spectacular play that the series gave us or show such contempt for all the battling the players on both sides did or play the same two clips from Youtube over and over and over and over as if they were the whole tournament in order to reinforce their small-minded view that "we wuz robbed".
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
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This is getting more and more ridiculous with every post. The one side wallows in whiny complacence and keeps repeating its mantra without reason and rhyme:

Did Canada ever apologize the Soviet players and team about the refereeing in these tournaments?

And the other side respondes with dull barbarism:

I don't give a **** how we won, they only thing that matters to us is winning period
 

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