1979 Challenge Cup discussion thread

[VMBM]

If we rated the players based on their play in the Canada vs. USSR serieses/Canada Cups over the years, my top 10 ranking would be something like this:

1. Gretzky
2. Makarov
3. Kharlamov
4. Fetisov
5. Lemieux
6. Orr
7. Perreault
8. Krutov
9. Mikhailov
10. Coffey

EDIT: well, maybe Esposito should be there too. Yakushev?

Maybe I'm giving Gretzky credit for just being Gretzky, but in my opinion, he WAS the best player in the 1987 Canada Cup, where Makarov and Krutov were also at the top of their game. Perreault has impressed me about as much as any Soviet player; would have been a bigger legend, if he was Russian/European. Orr and Lemieux played only a few games versus the Soviets/in the Canada Cup, so I can't rank them higher.

 

[hammerwielder]

And using NHL production (i.e. North American game) as the measuring stick is a cop-out....particularly when mediocre NHLers like a Semenov or Semak proved to be just as good/talented as their Canadian counterparts when allowed to use their talents within a non-North American style. Better NHLer ≠ better hockey player.

Respectfully, that's a load of bs.

The NHL has been the best league in the world by far throughout the period in question, ever since Soviet players joined the rest of Europe's best in the league. Soviet players such as Larionov, Fetisov, Fedorov, Bure, Mogilny, Kamensky and others had little trouble establishing themselves as premier NHL players, while other former Soviets, including Semonov, Semak, Lomakin, Makarov, Krutov, NemcHinov, either flamed out or played only all right. Though the dipsy-doodle skills of many of these players were evident, there is much more to the game than that and, when not within the protection of a system to which their skill sets were optimized, the weaknesses in their game prevented them from becoming star players. There have been many other highly touted Russian flops over the following years, e.g. Samsonov and, much like Team Canada, not every player on the Soviet side had all the skills necessary to be a bona fide star on an NHL team.

When you look at the way hockey is played today, the Soviet system is dead, while the NHL system has not only survived but taken over. Everyone knows that to be successful today one needs to have a suite of skills, including not only good skating, shooting, passing and stickhandling but good defensive zone coverage, shot-blocking ability, the ability to deliver and take a punishing check, skill on the forecheck, proficiency at special teams, controlling the boards, going to the net, supporting the puck, cycling, taking faceoffs, etc. etc. etc. These are skills that the Crosbys and Ovechkins and Stamkos's and Forsbergs of the modern game have in abundance, compared to which many of the players of yesteryear look somewhat quaint.

As for the contention that only Lemieux ranks above any Soviet player, no Soviet player who faced Gretzky in 1987 would agree (I recall one of the famous quotes from a Soviet who said that he was like an apparition, first you couldn't see him, then suddenly the puck was in your net), nor would many who had to face the likes of Orr, Hull and even Esposito whose determination, along with that of Henderson, almost single-handedly brought down the 1972 Soviet team.

 

[Zine]

Respectfully, that's a load of bs.

The NHL has been the best league in the world by far throughout the period in question, ever since Soviet players joined the rest of Europe's best in the league. Soviet players such as Larionov, Fetisov, Fedorov, Bure, Mogilny, Kamensky and others had little trouble establishing themselves as premier NHL players, while other former Soviets, including Semonov, Semak, Lomakin, Makarov, Krutov, NemcHinov, either flamed out or played only all right. Though the dipsy-doodle skills of many of these players were evident, there is much more to the game than that and, when not within the protection of a system to which their skill sets were optimized, the weaknesses in their game prevented them from becoming star players. There have been many other highly touted Russian flops over the following years, e.g. Samsonov and, much like Team Canada, not every player on the Soviet side had all the skills necessary to be a bona fide star on an NHL team.

When you look at the way hockey is played today, the Soviet system is dead, while the NHL system has not only survived but taken over. Everyone knows that to be successful today one needs to have a suite of skills, including not only good skating, shooting, passing and stickhandling but good defensive zone coverage, shot-blocking ability, the ability to deliver and take a punishing check, skill on the forecheck, proficiency at special teams, controlling the boards, going to the net, supporting the puck, cycling, taking faceoffs, etc. etc. etc. These are skills that the Crosbys and Ovechkins and Stamkos's and Forsbergs of the modern game have in abundance, compared to which many of the players of yesteryear look somewhat quaint.

As for the contention that only Lemieux ranks above any Soviet player, no Soviet player who faced Gretzky in 1987 would agree (I recall one of the famous quotes from a Soviet who said that he was like an apparition, first you couldn't see him, then suddenly the puck was in your net), nor would many who had to face the likes of Orr, Hull and even Esposito whose determination, along with that of Henderson, almost single-handedly brought down the 1972 Soviet team.

Even in today’s globalized NHL, one does not need to have a ‘suite of skills’ (as you described it) to be an NHL all-star.
The NHL still employs a North American style game which emphasizes particular skill sets and, as a consequence, allows players with one-dimensional North American skills to succeed more so than their European counterparts.

Chris Pronger is a perfect example….a future HOFer, Hart, Norris winner BUT a player who has routinely looked like a pylon on big ice during olympic play. The ‘NHL system’ has masked his inability to keep up with speedy forwards.
Hypothetically, imagine if Pronger had played for Tikhonov. CSKA supporters would have said “This is the best Canada has to offer? An NHL HOFer is no better than Igor Stelnov!â€

FACT - these differences were magnified tenfold 20 years ago; not only stylistically but culturally as well. It’s no wonder many Soviet greats couldn’t make the transition.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Zine

These tournaments are too short and infrequent to be reliable barometers for individual player ability. Also in a team sport it is impossible to evaluate individual players without considering how they interact with their team, this is not baseball.

Lastly you, nor anyone else can accurately predict how well Pronger would do in a European league. Maybe he is someone who needs more time to adjust.

Debating these micro arguments you bring up is more or less pointless since they have very little if no relevance in determining which country was the most dominant hockey nation. Anyone can find micro examples to argue either side of an issue. It's not that I don't watch the games, it is that debating the results of any one game is a waste of time.

 

[tombombadil]

Yes they and I admire the Gretzky Coffey Savard etc. What they didn't admire was the Clarke-Koharski-Eagleson...

1972 the thing people forget was that by game 6 USSR was leading 3-1-1 and were one toe-win away from winning it. It's 100% proven that at least 2 Canadians guys conspired and committed the crime of injuring the best Soviet player on purpose during this game 6 putting him out of the series.

Sure you could look at it as a victory(1972) but OBJECTIVELY no one with Dignity and Price(as Cherry likes too say) would say that. Canada was suppose to win all 8 games or at worst 7 games and actually it came down to you injuring on purpose the best player in game 6 when you were CLEARLY DOWN FOR THE PIN...

1972= Travesty. Soviet won in most people objective view.

1974 we won vs. your B team. 1976 you won vs. our B team.

1979 we completely owned you just like in 1981.

1984 you won I'll say it fairly but in a very close OT game.

1987 in the best hockey ever we were leading 3-0 in the final game before Koharski-Eagleson took over so we won.

We won by a good margin the all time NHL-Soviet club teams series.

The 1980's U20 were almost 50/50 so that was a good split. And I say I consider 1987Piestany a Canada Gold.

RDV87 in QuebecCity was a good tie.

Meanwhile we own Olympics and Worlds before you could send some of your best. But we actually won most of the 80's Worlds when Canada sent AMAZING teams many years.

All in All I say USSR dominance can't be argued objectively againts.

But unlike others I can acknowledge what was great about Canadian Hockey then but I sure don't turn a blind eye to those who were there to sabotage hockey and fair play...

That's why you should never forget that in no other sport or country someone would have selective memory and would try to tell you without lying that they consider playing 80% at home with home refs and everything isn't as close to fixing sports(wrestling) as it comes...

Canada is #1 now but they were a good #2 before.

haha, no one is going to agree with you. Except that I do on some of your points. 72' and 87'.

I also agree that Canadian hockey is now the best it's ever been. The Russians inspired it, but it's the Swedes, Finns, Americans, and Slavs that are helping push it now, as well as the Russians.

I think hockey is at a great level, everyone is better. I just watched Game 6 of Philly-Boston 1974, and it was ****. People have their heroes and legends, and you aren't allowed to say this, but: those guys were bush league. The talent-level since the Russians came over, big money came into the game, and brought trainers, dieticians, etc is through the roof. People figured out how to actually play goal, equipment and coaching improved. It's a world sport now, with money, instead of a Canadian oddity, and a Russian olympic sport.

As much as my countrymen walked into 1972 with arrogant talk, then cheated, and then walked out saying, "We never would have lost again", i think that, behind closed doors, everyone went, "Holy ****! We have to change **** up" Just as Gretz said that Canadian hockey has to be changed from the junior level up aftter losing in '98. And our nation answered both calls, as we have dominated junior hockey in the years since.

Everytime a country comes up with something new, and shows us up, we respond, and hockey, overall gets better. Canada will always pump money and people into the Hockey Machine here, so we will always be ahead of the smaller hockey nations. I include Russia as 'smaller' because you guys have a small hockey population, very few rinks, etc. It's not like here, we have as many rinks in a 100 mile radius from my house, then you have in your country!

The only country that could pass and sustain passing us, is the USA. Population + money. They just have to want 'hockey' as a nation. Hope it never happens.

I also agree that reffing and media was stupidly racist over 15 years ago. Most people love the good Euro's now, and some are even starting to admit that most of them play with heart. 10 years from now, the dinosaur generation will be extinct.

 

[Yakushev72]

haha, no one is going to agree with you. Except that I do on some of your points. 72' and 87'.

I also agree that Canadian hockey is now the best it's ever been. The Russians inspired it, but it's the Swedes, Finns, Americans, and Slavs that are helping push it now, as well as the Russians.

I think hockey is at a great level, everyone is better. I just watched Game 6 of Philly-Boston 1974, and it was ****. People have their heroes and legends, and you aren't allowed to say this, but: those guys were bush league. The talent-level since the Russians came over, big money came into the game, and brought trainers, dieticians, etc is through the roof. People figured out how to actually play goal, equipment and coaching improved. It's a world sport now, with money, instead of a Canadian oddity, and a Russian olympic sport.

As much as my countrymen walked into 1972 with arrogant talk, then cheated, and then walked out saying, "We never would have lost again", i think that, behind closed doors, everyone went, "Holy ****! We have to change **** up" Just as Gretz said that Canadian hockey has to be changed from the junior level up aftter losing in '98. And our nation answered both calls, as we have dominated junior hockey in the years since.

Everytime a country comes up with something new, and shows us up, we respond, and hockey, overall gets better. Canada will always pump money and people into the Hockey Machine here, so we will always be ahead of the smaller hockey nations. I include Russia as 'smaller' because you guys have a small hockey population, very few rinks, etc. It's not like here, we have as many rinks in a 100 mile radius from my house, then you have in your country!

The only country that could pass and sustain passing us, is the USA. Population + money. They just have to want 'hockey' as a nation. Hope it never happens.

I also agree that reffing and media was stupidly racist over 15 years ago. Most people love the good Euro's now, and some are even starting to admit that most of them play with heart. 10 years from now, the dinosaur generation will be extinct.

Typical chest-thumping Canadian with fantasies of "superiority." Superiority, by definition, means that you win every game, and Canadian teams certainly don't win every game. The real issue is this: with the massive disparity in resources devoted to hockey between Canada and the rest of the world COMBINED, how can it be explained why Canada only has a 50% success rate in the Olympics, why they rarely win a World Championship, why they don't win the WJC every year, and why they don't win the World U18 every year. I know the answer is that for some of those tournaments, you don't have ALL

 

[Yakushev72]

Typical chest-thumping Canadian with fantasies of "superiority." Superiority, by definition, means that you win every game, and Canadian teams certainly don't win every game. The real issue is this: with the massive disparity in resources devoted to hockey between Canada and the rest of the world COMBINED, how can it be explained why Canada only has a 50% success rate in the Olympics, why they rarely win a World Championship, why they don't win the WJC every year, and why they don't win the World U18 every year. I know the answer is that for some of those tournaments, you don't have ALL

(continued) ALL of your best players available. But with the massive, highly structured and highly organized financial priorities that Canadians devote to hockey in comparison to the rest of the world, you shouldn't need ALL of your best players to dominate and win. I think that Canadian hockey has underachieved over the years, mainly because hockey skills are traditionally overlooked in Canada in favor of hitting and dump and chase. When you say that Canada has gotten, what you are failing to understand is that you havent gotten better - your only real competition, Russia, has declined over the past two decades due to massive economic devastation. Russia is recovering now, and maybe will eventually restore resources devoted to hockey, but it is sickening to see Canadians calling themselves superior after winning a hockey tournament of 15-17 year olds.

 

[tombombadil]

i must have written my post wrong, I usually offend everyone here because i stand up for non-Canadian countries, and hate the arrogance of many people who talk hockey here.

This is new for me to be getting criticized by a Russian.

I think my point is that we aren't more manly, or naturally better, or better at understanding the game. Rather, our country pumps more money into it. And we have cheated to win, and then passed it off as "wanting it more" Over here, if a little guy plays over the edge and his name is Darcy Tucker, or Bobby Clarke, then he is "a gutsy little guy that does what it takes to win. If he plays the very same game but his name is Ulf Samuelsson, or it is known that he came out of a vagina outside of our borders, then he is "cheap, despicable, deserves to get run over, etc."

I think the Punch up in Piestany was the worst case of propaganda in our history. The Russians were "too cowardly" to stand up to our guys, but somehow mustered the guts just so that we wouldn't win. Simultaneously, even though the sneaky Russians instigated the whole thing, it has been reported that "only Konstantinov" fought. Two guys didn't fight, Pierre Turgeon and the Canadian back-up goalie. I know that cowards don't get in a line brawl, and I know that the fighting was even, but that's what gets sold here. Also, Theo Fleury machine gunned the Russian bench, but Alex Ovechkin gets **** on for celebrating goals by our Minister of Propoganda, Don Cherry. And we eat it up, after he went on his anti-Russian spiel in '87, both his, and the Junior tourney's popularity skyrocketed here.

I could go on for a very long time about lies that are told in my country that have driven me to supporting the Swedes (had to pick someone, loved Forsberg)... but at the end of it, the truth of the matter is that Canada is the most successful hockey country. You don't have to win over 50% of tournaments to be the best, you just have to win more tourneys than any other team. Canada is the best hockey country by accomplishments, and it's not sanely disputable. We are not better than the rest of the world combined, however.

 

[Theokritos]

Canada only has a 50% success rate in the Olympics

"Only" 50 percent? Wow. Russia has 0%, that's "only" 0%, but "only" 50% is strange wording IMO. And the sample size is rather small: 4 tournaments so far. I bet Canada is going to keep its 50% record if the NHL stays commited to the Olympics, while Sweden and the Czech Republic are going to have a lower record then the 25% they've got now. I don't see how you can dispute tombombadils statement: "Canada is the best hockey country by accomplishments, and it's not sanely disputable. We are not better than the rest of the world combined, however."
Spot on IMO.

BTW, I'm a European, of European/non-Canadian descent, born and raised and living in Europe. No Canadian arrogance or bias on my part.

 

[tombombadil]

Hey thanks, you must be Greek! I want to thank the TS for this thread. I'd never even heard of this tourney. Obviously this is more inflammatory than it should be, but no matter how you feel about the importance of short tourneys, or the reffing in them, or whatever else - I do find it very ironic that I hadn't heard of this. As a 35 year old Canadian, all of my international memories are post '87. I find it a little suspicious that I can hear or read about '72 or '87 on a tv special, or in a paper, or from someone's mouth, or in a magazine/book write up... but that I never knew '79 existed until I searched online for it. Ditto '81 and '74. Kinda funny. I bet every country does a lot in the way of playing up successes, and ignoring defeats, but it is a little frustrating. I don't want to be lied to, or told the bad guys cheated. I want to know that the other guys are good, so it's that much better when our guys win. And, I want to know the actual history of hockey, told in an unbiased manner. Hockey is greater than countries.

 

[Yakushev72]

i must have written my post wrong, I usually offend everyone here because i stand up for non-Canadian countries, and hate the arrogance of many people who talk hockey here.

This is new for me to be getting criticized by a Russian.

I think my point is that we aren't more manly, or naturally better, or better at understanding the game. Rather, our country pumps more money into it. And we have cheated to win, and then passed it off as "wanting it more" Over here, if a little guy plays over the edge and his name is Darcy Tucker, or Bobby Clarke, then he is "a gutsy little guy that does what it takes to win. If he plays the very same game but his name is Ulf Samuelsson, or it is known that he came out of a vagina outside of our borders, then he is "cheap, despicable, deserves to get run over, etc."

I think the Punch up in Piestany was the worst case of propaganda in our history. The Russians were "too cowardly" to stand up to our guys, but somehow mustered the guts just so that we wouldn't win. Simultaneously, even though the sneaky Russians instigated the whole thing, it has been reported that "only Konstantinov" fought. Two guys didn't fight, Pierre Turgeon and the Canadian back-up goalie. I know that cowards don't get in a line brawl, and I know that the fighting was even, but that's what gets sold here. Also, Theo Fleury machine gunned the Russian bench, but Alex Ovechkin gets **** on for celebrating goals by our Minister of Propoganda, Don Cherry. And we eat it up, after he went on his anti-Russian spiel in '87, both his, and the Junior tourney's popularity skyrocketed here.

I could go on for a very long time about lies that are told in my country that have driven me to supporting the Swedes (had to pick someone, loved Forsberg)... but at the end of it, the truth of the matter is that Canada is the most successful hockey country. You don't have to win over 50% of tournaments to be the best, you just have to win more tourneys than any other team. Canada is the best hockey country by accomplishments, and it's not sanely disputable. We are not better than the rest of the world combined, however.

In retrospect, I may have misinterpreted your post, and overreacted. I apologize for that. I had just gotten done reading a number of posts on the IH tournament in the Prospects section, and some of them were in fact chest-thumping and nationalistic, and after the thumping Russia got from Canada, may have hit a raw nerve. I am not denying the record, which shows that Canada wins more tournaments than any other nation. Its just that some posters make the "end zone dance" a little excessive.

I can see from your post above that you see through the ironies and double standards affecting Russians and Europeans in general. We are all on the same page, I believe, which is hoping for good hockey to enjoy. Congratulations to Canada for a well-earned win in the IH tournament!

 

[canuck2010]

Yak 72, I think I posted on this thread about a year ago. It's time for us to move on lol. I'm throwing down the gauntlet and saying that Canada is going to whip your ass in this years WJHC. I have a nice bottle of Stolichnaya that says I'm going to be right. Cheers.