1837 Ice Hockey in Montreal

[Canadiens1958]

East to West

... fascinating article here from last February, early history of the game in Toronto: www.torontosun.com/2015/02/14/first-hockey-game-in-toronto-history

Just more evidence that skating games on ice involving a stick and an object that was hit moved further inland in Canada as the the 19th century moved forward.

Usually brought by the militia or citizens heading west.

 

[Killion]

Rubber would not be impacted by the mid afternoon cold in Montréal..

Just more evidence that skating games on ice involving a stick and an object that was hit moved further inland in Canada as the the 19th century moved forward.

Yes, the Toronto Sun article also mentions the possible use of a boot or shoe heel, ideal as a makeshift puck. While not vulcanized if it did break down due to the cold & began disintegrating easily replaced.... Whats also interesting to read in that Sun article is that while the SIHR concluded in their 2002 report that the first "real game of hockey in Canada" was played on March 3rd 1875 at Victoria Skating Rink in Montreal (formal rules, contemporary news reports, recorded & fully documented) they are leaving the door open; encouraging historians & fans of the history of the game to keep digging. Open minded.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sources

Sources are a key element to checking historic accounts. The implication of the Molson family in the 1837 game does not require census data from the era. It is easy to confrim by looking at the family history in Montréal or other accounts in related events. A 1986 story in the Montréal Gazette:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cZE0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=RKgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3342,3444270

Gives support to the 1941 John T. Knox account of the 1837 game.

Confirmation that the Molson family lived on St.Lawrence above Sherbrooke. That the city reservoir was at the present day Carre St. Louis. The reservoir helped water the winter athletic field in the area between Carre St.Louis and St.Lawrence, known as The Tank.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

The story may or may not be true, but to me "hockey" (or technically "ice hockey") is simply two teams on the ice playing a game on skates with sticks, a sort of puck, and goals. Isn't that all there is to it? There still needs to be more research into the evolution of ice hockey, I think. We still don't know very much about how exactly it evolved. Those people in 1875 in Montreal didn't just decide to play a brand new sport.

You can use such a broad definition if you wish, but of course if you do, the Knox claims about them being first, about essentially inventing a new sport on the spot, still fail.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

No claim of a first hockey stick was ever made.

Try reading the article again. It very explicitly claims that the first hockey stick was made in November 1836. It uses the term "first" very clearly.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Harold McNamara

Try reading the article again. It very explicitly claims that the first hockey stick was made in November 1836. It uses the term "first" very clearly.

The attribution of first hockey stick is made by the writer Harold McNamara,his interpretation, not Mr. Knox. Look at the quoted passages further down and the stick is described as having attributes advantageous to playing ice hurling.

Separate the claims stemming from the Knox family and Mr. Knox and the writers interpretation of the same.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

The attribution of first hockey stick is made by the writer Harold McNamara,his interpretation, not Mr. Knox.

Just flat-out wrong.

Leading into the discussion of the "first" hockey stick, the article states: "Here is how that manuscript describes events leading up to the first hockey game."

There's no reason at all to suspect interpolation by the author, it seems he's quoting Mr. Knox much of the time, and when not directly quoting he's relaying Knox's version of the events, quote clearly. You're reading things that just aren't there.

 

[Theokritos]

Just flat-out wrong.

Leading into the discussion of the "first" hockey stick, the article states: "Here is how that manuscript describes events leading up to the first hockey game."

There's no reason at all to suspect interpolation by the author, it seems he's quoting Mr. Knox much of the time, and when not directly quoting he's relaying Knox's version of the events, quote clearly. You're reading things that just aren't there.

Let's be very precise here. I do agree that McNamara is obviously following John T. Knox (the son) when he claims the "firsts" for Montreal 1837, but from what I see in the two articles it's not clear whether the same claims can be traced back to Michael Knox (the father) himself and his records. The passage prefaced by the statement you mention above contains a few direct quotes from the manuscripts but mostly it is a recap by McNamara/Knox Jr. certainly not free of influence by their own take and interpretation.

 

[James Laverance]

''The first recorded game of ice hockey took place in Montreal in late February 1837. This match, between the Uptowns and Dorchesters, was described by the Montreal Gazette as an "ice hurding" game. The Dorchesters scored the first and only goal of the contest.''

''It was said that each side iced a team of eight men.''

This was actually an ''Ice Hurling''game via Halifax(King's College)
and the first hockey-style game in Montreal.

Something like a Shinny game.
Let's remember Students at King's College were from all around North America so...
Also brought to Virginia four years earlier(1833) maybe it was played in other places too at the time.
(other than Montreal and Virginia)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=vx...ved=0CE8Q6AEwCWoVChMIpJX4m8jbxwIVDA-SCh3aHQRe


https://books.google.ca/books?id=Z3...ved=0CDIQ6AEwA2oVChMIp8L7w8zbxwIVxxaSCh00tQAS

 

[Canadiens1958]

Quebec City

''The first recorded game of ice hockey took place in Montreal in late February 1837. This match, between the Uptowns and Dorchesters, was described by the Montreal Gazette as an "ice hurding" game. The Dorchesters scored the first and only goal of the contest.''

''It was said that each side iced a team of eight men.''

This was actually an ''Ice Hurling''game via Halifax(King's College)
and the first hockey-style game in Montreal.

Something like a Shinny game.
Let's remember Students at King's College were from all around North America so...
Also brought to Virginia four years earlier(1833) maybe it was played in other places too at the time.
(other than Montreal and Virginia)

https://books.google.ca/books?id=vx...ved=0CE8Q6AEwCWoVChMIpJX4m8jbxwIVDA-SCh3aHQRe


https://books.google.ca/books?id=Z3...ved=0CDIQ6AEwA2oVChMIp8L7w8zbxwIVxxaSCh00tQAS

Reports of similar activities may be traced back to Québec City 1822 and a review of Québec City municipal régulations shows such activity on city streets was regulated by 1850.

The link to the Irish immigrants, hurling and their eventual migration to Montréal is also present.

Another interesting aspect is that the early schools in Montréal, British and Canadian School(1827-bilingual,non-denominational) and College Ste. Marie were district schools on the edge of the venue where the games to place.

 

[James Laverance]

Reports of similar activities may be traced back to Québec City 1822 and a review of Québec City municipal régulations shows such activity on city streets was regulated by 1850.

Really?
Trying to research this but can't seem to find anything.
Perhaps it was a similar type of activity on land!
1822!
1850!
WoW!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sources

Will provide sources by the weekend. Do not have access to my notes presently.

 

[James Laverance]

Okay Thanks!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sources

Further to yesterdays request and commitment.

1820s source " Le journal d'un bourgeois de Québec" Emile Castonguay 1960.

1850 - regulated in 1845, source "La Ville de Québec,III: de l'incorporation à la confédération(1833-1867" Antonio Drolet, 1967.

Both books are available at the BanQ, on site consultation only at branch locations. Usually by appointment only. This may change over time as the Québec Library and Archives(BanQ) is in the midst of digitalizing and adding Equipment that will facilitate access. Last annual report made mention of 5.3 million documents digitalized since the previous report.

 

[James Laverance]

Further to yesterdays request and commitment.

1820s source " Le journal d'un bourgeois de Québec" Emile Castonguay 1960.

1850 - regulated in 1845, source "La Ville de Québec,III: de l'incorporation à la confédération(1833-1867" Antonio Drolet, 1967.

Both books are available at the BanQ, on site consultation only at branch locations. Usually by appointment only. This may change over time as the Québec Library and Archives(BanQ) is in the midst of digitalizing and adding Equipment that will facilitate access. Last annual report made mention of 5.3 million documents digitalized since the previous report.

In 1848>>>

http://quebecbulldogs.com/tag/emile-castonguay/



Yo! Thanks for the info!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good Job

Further to yesterdays request and commitment.

1820s source " Le journal d'un bourgeois de Québec" Emile Castonguay 1960.

1850 - regulated in 1845, source "La Ville de Québec,III: de l'incorporation à la confédération(1833-1867" Antonio Drolet, 1967.

Both books are available at the BanQ, on site consultation only at branch locations. Usually by appointment only. This may change over time as the Québec Library and Archives(BanQ) is in the midst of digitalizing and adding Equipment that will facilitate access. Last annual report made mention of 5.3 million documents digitalized since the previous report.

In 1845>>>

http://quebecbulldogs.com/tag/emile-castonguay/



Yo! Thanks for the info!

Pleasure. Good job.

 

[James Laverance]

Lists of Hockey-type matches 1800-1860

''Ice-Hurley on Skates'' circa 1800 Nova Scotia.
Birthplace of Hockey | The History of Ice Hockey from the Original Home Ice & Birthplace of Hockey Windsor Nova Scotia (circa 1800)

"Skated and played Hockey" 1825 Deline,NWT
http://www.pwnhc.ca/item/first-recorded-hockey-game-in-the-northwest-territories/

"Ice Hockey in Plymouth, Massachusetts late 1820's."
Explore & Learn | Old Sturbridge Village


"Ice Hurley on skates'' Virginia 1833

''Hockey on ice'' was played on Chippawa Creek, Niagara Falls, Ontario in 1839.

''Hockey on Ice'' Kingston,Ontario 1843
Niagara Falls News - Latest Daily Breaking News Stories | NiagaraFallsReview.ca

''Ice Hurley on Skates'' Quebec City 1848.
Émile Castonguay – Quebec Bulldogs

''Shinny on the ice'' was played in Hannibal,MO in 1848.

"On Glasscock's Island(Hannibal, Missouri) across from the
mouth of Bear Creek, rechristened Jackson's Island''

"Robinson Crusoe, fiction has discovered no more blissful isle than
Jackson's, and in the 1840's — before the insatiable river devoured it — the
fantasy was true.Sometimes, as in the severe winter of 1848-49, the river froze solid, and with
shouts the boys skated from shore to shore or played "shinny" on the ice. "

Sam Clemens of Hannibal - Page 167
Sam Clemens of Hannibal
Dixon Wector - 1952 -


''Shinny on the ice''Morristown,New Jersey C.1850

''Shinny'' Halifax 1851.
CAHPER Journal

''Bandy on Ice Skates'' New York State 1855.

''Shinny'' in Kingston,Ontario Christmas Day 1855.
Hockey night in Kingston

''Shinny'' Concord NH 1856.
NP1992k.pdf

''Hockey'' Boston 1859.
http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/news-accounts/

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting

^^^Getting interesting. The more data that is submitted the better.

Two points are starting to emerge.

A distinction will have to be drawn between early games that were played on ice that formed on bodies of water and games that were played on ice that formed on land. Or ponds, streams,rivers, lakes, etc vs streets, fields, other hard surfaces.

Likewise a distinction between sliding on ice and skating on ice while playing a game. Skating involves sliding but the skater is in control and may execute various moves - stops, turns, forward and backward movement, etc. overcoming gravity with a mastery of physics. Changes in center of gravity, etc. Sliding tends to lack control, success if subject to gravity, with little, if any, appreciation in the shifting center of gravity.

 

[James Laverance]

Okay.
Since the actual ''Starr Hockey Skate'' wasn't invented until 1863 devised from the E.V Bushnell Triangle Ice Skating Blade invented in 1848 and was not used in any of games I mentioned from 1800-1860.
I guess ''Maneuvering on Skates'' wouldn't count in that time bracket.
Maybe at St.Paul's School NH, Boston, or the Halifax Area later on in the 1860's would have used these Maneuvering Type Skates.
To me it's all the same.
Be it Bone,Iron,Steel Pole,or Triangler Shaped Blade.

http://www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/starr.htm

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Rr...ved=0CCwQ6AEwBmoVChMIiYGj87zexwIVkoCSCh0IzAkZ

 

[tinyzombies]

thought I read that the first "puck" was used at what is thought to be the first organized game at the Victoria Rink instead of a ball (which I read was normally used for hockey) as a safety measure for bystanders?

The writer might be taking liberties with words tho for the benefits of his readers?

 

[Theokritos]

1820s source " Le journal d'un bourgeois de Québec" Emile Castonguay 1960.

1850 - regulated in 1845, source "La Ville de Québec,III: de l'incorporation à la confédération(1833-1867" Antonio Drolet, 1967.

In 1848>>>

http://quebecbulldogs.com/tag/emile-castonguay/

Now that's certainly interesting. Thanks folks!

Two points are starting to emerge.

A distinction will have to be drawn between early games that were played on ice that formed on bodies of water and games that were played on ice that formed on land. Or ponds, streams,rivers, lakes, etc vs streets, fields, other hard surfaces.

Likewise a distinction between sliding on ice and skating on ice while playing a game. Skating involves sliding but the skater is in control and may execute various moves - stops, turns, forward and backward movement, etc. overcoming gravity with a mastery of physics. Changes in center of gravity, etc. Sliding tends to lack control, success if subject to gravity, with little, if any, appreciation in the shifting center of gravity.

Fully agree, two relevant and significant distinctions right there.

Okay.
Since the actual ''Starr Hockey Skate'' wasn't invented until 1863 devised from the E.V Bushnell Triangle Ice Skating Blade invented in 1848 and was not used in any of games I mentioned from 1800-1860.

For the record, that Starr skate invented in 1866 (not 1863 by the way) was not registered as "Starr Hockey Skate" but as "Starr Acme Skate". The "Hockey Skate" label came later, retrospectively. Or at least we have yet to see any contemporary evidence for it being labeled as "Hockey Skate" at that time. From another thread:

The Forbes Acme Skate
"In Puck (p.120, 121), Dr. Vaughan states that John Forbes (of the Starr Manufacturing Company) developed and patented in 1866 the “Starr Hockey Skate.†This suggests that hockey was sufficiently advanced by then that there was a market for a skate designed especially for the sport. Dr. Vaughan notes that the skate had a curved blade with rounded ends to allow for the quick turning of hockey. In looking at patent records for Nova Scotia, Canada and the United States, we have found only one under the name John Forbes for 1866. It is Nova Scotia patent application no. 171 for the “Forbes Acme Skate,†dated June 11, 1866. The document contains the petition, the claim, the specifications and a drawing. The device for which protection is sought constitutes “a simple and efficient and extremely convenient arrangement for securing the skates to the feet without the use of straps or screws.†The word “hockey†does not appear in the document, nor is there any description of a curved blade."

 

[Theokritos]

thought I read that the first "puck" was used at what is thought to be the first organized game at the Victoria Rink instead of a ball (which I read was normally used for hockey) as a safety measure for bystanders?

The earliest "puck" I'm aware of:

That's London, England, 1797.

As for Canada, you're right that the Montreal Gazette announced prior to that 1875 game at the Victoria Rink a flat disc would be used instead of a ball for the very reason you mention. Was it a "first" though? Not if you ask Michael Knox or John T. Knox, obviously.

 

[VanIslander]

The old crank also claims he has evidence that Canada is responsible fo the North's winning of the American Civil War.

How can you accept one and not the other?

He sounds off his rocker.

Literally and figuratively.

 

[Theokritos]

The old crank also claims he has evidence that Canada is responsible fo the North's winning of the American Civil War.

How can you accept one and not the other?

He sounds off his rocker.

This touches on the core of the issue with John T. Knox. The claim that "Canada won the American Civil War for the North" is a massive exaggeration by someone who obviously loved to talk big. Yet it is indeed true that some 40,000 (or so) Canadians did fight for the Union in the Civil War.

 

[James Laverance]

For the record, that Starr skate invented in 1866 (not 1863 by the way) was not registered as "Starr Hockey Skate" but as "Starr Acme Skate". The "Hockey Skate" label came later, retrospectively. Or at least we have yet to see any contemporary evidence for it being labeled as "Hockey Skate" at that time. From another thread:

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/stock-vs-star/



Sorry the ''Starr Acme Club Skate'' was invented in 1863 by the way and Renamed the ''Starr Hockey Skate'' in 1866.

1866 – Starr ‘HOCKEY’ Skates invented and patented by Starr Mfg. Co. Ltd., This fact establishes that Ice Hockey was being played in Nova Scotia at that early date.
http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/evolution/evequipchron-2/