1837 Ice Hockey in Montreal

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Effectively you and RGO are saying that the Starr Company or its legal advisors should have been poor patent applicants in the 1860s to conform with good history in 2015...

No, all we are saying is that so far no one has found any contemporary evidence from the 1860s,70's and 80s that the Starr skates were advertised or promoted as skates to be used for hockey, or that they were skates made specifically for hockey. The patent application didn't mention anything about the skate being used for hockey, thus it wasn't known as the "Hockey skate".

I personally believe that there is an ad somewhere in an old newspaper from the 1880s promoting the Acme skate to be used in the game of hockey, we just haven't found it yet. Now that is of course not the same thing as a skate made specifically for hockey, but at least finding an ad like that would be nice.

As it stands now, the earliest known specific skates made for hockey were the "Standard Hockey Skates" from Sheffield, England in 1881.
Until we find some contemporary evidence that the Starr Acme skates were sold as "Hockey skates" before 1881, these Sheffield skates remain being the first genuine hockey skates. That is a fact of today. However, it would be fantastic if we can find earlier instances of hockey skates being manufactured/sold.

I don't think anyone cares about the legal advisors of Starr Company, the only thing we care about is historical accuracy.

Fact 1: First known skates made specifically for hockey - "Standard Hockey Skates" from Sheffield, England in 1881 (or earlier).

Fact 2: So far researchers and historians have not found any contemporary evidence that the Starr Acme skates were made specifically for hockey before 1881 (or advertised as such).

Fact 3: Fact 1 and Fact 2 are clear as a whistle, any questions ?

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Not sure if accurate, but Ive read (cant remember where) that the first advertisement for skates that featured the word "hockey" prominently was from Peck & Snyder circa 1870's. Peck & Snyder was a leading manufacturer & retailer of sporting goods & games, even musical instruments & novelty items based in the US. They started out retailing & even producing baseball equipment (and player/team cards, considered the "Granddaddy's of All Time" in that regard) just after the Civil War, eventually bought out by Spaulding. The skates called "American Standard" Hockey Skates. Based in NY, P&S claimed to be The Largest Dealers in Games of Sports in the World. There are in fact a couple of books written on the company tracing its history, and very likely trade in early ad panels & catalogs' though I cant find anything on-line that features their skates before 1890.

You are right Killion. I think that might be the best way to find anything. I have looked in old Peck & Snyder catalogues but didn't find anything that early. Having said that, I do think it is worth to investigate further. It is also worth mentioning that they had shinny sticks in their catalogue 1873.

Shinny sticks were advertised as far back as 1860 by Conover & Walker of New York. They also sold skates.

 

[James Laverance]

''We have an amazing pair of vintage hockey skates. They are made by the Peck & Snyder Sporting Goods Company, in the 1870's, which was one of the first sporting goods manufacturers in the United States. They are Peck & Snyder's AMERICAN CLUB model which was a top quality skate in it's day. They show a lot of wear. A very nice addition to any collection of hockey stuff or sports memorabilia.''

https://www.etsy.com/listing/203676631/antique-1800s-peck-snyders-american-club

 

[Killion]

You are right Killion. I think that might be the best way to find anything. I have looked in old Peck & Snyder catalogues but didn't find anything that early. Having said that, I do think it is worth to investigate further. It is also worth mentioning that they had shinny sticks in their catalogue 1873.

Shinny sticks were advertised as far back as 1860 by Conover & Walker of New York. They also sold skates.

Yes, one would think if they even exist anywhere that at minimum you might find references in catalogs, periodicals, journals or newspapers contemporaneous to the era. Yet, all very mysterious, drawing blanks, coming up empty. Of course, the US was rather preoccupied at that time. From April of 1861 to April of 1865 the Civil War followed by Reconstruction. Population of app 31 Million, close to 750,000 dead. In todays numbers, that would be like 7 Million killed, taken from the population. The country absolutely reeling, in shock, stunned. Touched every single family. Prior to the Civil War, during and with generations of youth wiped right out & for decades after, economic hardships. Leisurely pursuits, well, not a lot of people had the time nor the money, hence the more "generic" label of "Standard Skates", multi-purpose. You advertise something as "specific to" whatever, youd be limiting yourself to a narrower more boutique type audience. So perhaps this is why we cant find anything on paper, in print, Patents devoid of the use of the word "hockey skates". Canada, wasnt even a "nation" until 1867.

 

[James Laverance]

''Stop acting as if there is any evidence supporting the claim that the Starr Company designed and marketed a skate specifically for hockey as early as 1866 AD.''

Okay.
Just heard back from the Dartmouth Heritage Museum and it seems as though SIHR are correct.

1863 “John Forbes’ spring skates first made at Dartmouth’s Starr Manufacturing company” and 1866 “Starr Manufacturing patents the Forbes Acme Skate – the first modern skate… sells over eleven million skates worldwide from 1863 to 1939.”

Page 60 – “A specific hockey skate was not patented until 1893-1895, a reflection of demand and the fact that hockey had become a popular sport outside of Halifax and Dartmouth.* Before that time, the relatively small number of players and teams did not warrant specific marketing of a ‘made for hockey’ product. *This is confirmed by observing old hockey photographs – almost all the players wear Starr skates.”
http://www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/

Although it wasn't until 1893 that the ''Starr Skate'' was patented, my speculation is that it might have been referred to as a "Hockey Skate" in 1866 by the people playing the game.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

In the 1860s the activity that became "hockey" or "ice hockey" had many synonyms which have been listed to exhaustion here.

Strictly true, but an extremely uncharitable reading on your part. If you were able to provide any reference to an activity similar to hockey with respect to these scouts, I'd doubt Robert Gordon Orr would object because they didn't use the specific word "hockey." And if he did object at that point, you could argue that he's being unreasonable, but only at that point. At this point, you have no references to any sort of game with respect to these skates, so your objection is entirely moot.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparables

That said we havethe patent info for Starr

Actually we're not even touching on what the Starr Company or anybody else should have done back in 1866. We're only touching on what people interested in hockey history should do today: Stop acting as if there is any evidence supporting the claim that the Starr Company designed and marketed a skate specifically for hockey as early as 1866 AD.

No we are touching on what was done and the advantages or virtues of each act. We also have Scientific American détails plus drawings for the Starr skates. Simmilar should be available for the "first" patented hockey skate.

Let's compare the attributes of each and how these attibutes advanced hockey and which was the better skate for hockey purposes.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

That said we havethe patent info for Starr

No we are touching on what was done and the advantages or virtues of each act. We also have Scientific American détails plus drawings for the Starr skates. Simmilar should be available for the "first" patented hockey skate.

Let's compare the attributes of each and how these attibutes advanced hockey and which was the better skate for hockey purposes.

Yeah, let's do that. When you have compared the attributes and determined which of them were better, let us know, ok?. Good luck !

 

[James Laverance]

Thanks for your contribution C58.
This is the complete article bloomed up in full.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Thanks for your contribution C58.
This is the complete article bloomed up in full.

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Very interesting, though I am a little skeptical. This game supposedly would have been played decades before the "original" game at McGill. If semi-organized/codified ice hockey was this popular in the 1830s, why did it take so long to become a mainstream organized sport? The details provided 104 years after the fact seem questionable. The crowd went wild after one goal and mobbed the ice, to the point that the game was unable to resume? It all just seems a little fantastic. Could this Knox fellow have been attempting to to create hockey's version of the Abner Doubleday/baseball myth that was started right around this time?

 

[James Laverance]

Very interesting, though I am a little skeptical. This game supposedly would have been played decades before the "original" game at McGill. If semi-organized/codified ice hockey was this popular in the 1830s, why did it take so long to become a mainstream organized sport? The details provided 104 years after the fact seem questionable. The crowd went wild after one goal and mobbed the ice, to the point that the game was unable to resume? It all just seems a little fantastic. Could this Knox fellow have been attempting to to create hockey's version of the Abner Doubleday/baseball myth that was started right around this time?

Interesting point.
I think that there was a game of "Ice Hurley" back in 1837 in Montreal and that a lot of the information in the article is correct.
Though at the same time it may have been slightly embellished to accommodate the modern style of Ice-Hockey when it was written.
So the positions listed such as point, coverpoint, rover, home etc (Which were all Lacrosse positions not written down until 1856) must be incorrect.
Must have taken place as a very primitive form of Ice-Hockey.

 

[James Laverance]

Unfortunately this story was debunked many decades ago, and more recently, although years ago, by Craig Bowlsby. These contests might have taken place, but not in 1837. The Knox diary, if it is a real account, could have happened in 1873. But not 1837. There were no ice rinks in Montreal at that time. There was no Dorchester club at that time, (which is where the Dorchesters were supposed to come from). There was a garrison mentioned, but there was no garrison there, etc. Also there was a rebellion going on at the time in Quebec, and no one was out gaily skating, not to mention which the cholera outbreak that winter was killing a lot of people in Montreal. So, as far as He knows, nothing about the story fits with the facts of 1837. But 1873? yes, perhaps.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Well it seemed like a stretch that it was true, apparently it was (a stretch).