Post-Game Talk: 18/19 Endless boilerplate arguments regarding Management thread | Pt. V. Oil up your mouse wheel.

[y2kcanucks]

It appears that you and a whole lot of the haters don't understand that Benning's signing guys like Guddy only meant that it would be less likely that players would try to take advantage of our young stars. Nobody ever said that there was any sort of GUARANTEE that nobody would ever hit one of them because, of course, such a statement would be bordering on the absurd. Needless to say nobody can tell just how many cheap hits guys like Guddy have prevented because they didn't happen and castigating guys like him for not initiating a Bertuzzi-style retaliation is to show massive ignorance of how pro hockey players think (especially when they don't even know for sure what has happened on the ice). In short to say that Guddy has "failed" because somebody ultimately hit our young superstar (something that was guaranteed to happen someday) is incredibly stupid.

A lot of people don't understand that because it's not true. There is no empirical evidence that supports that claim. Especially in today's game where fighting is a lot less common. We told you the idea was bullshit, the idea was proven to be bullshit, accept it. Jim Benning built part of this team with a faulty idea of what he needed on the team and it's blown up in his face. Accept the fact and accept reality, or not. Either way, can we stop trumpeting this bullshit now? You've been proven wrong. Move on.

 

[Zippgunn]

A lot of people don't understand that because it's not true. There is no empirical evidence that supports that claim. Especially in today's game where fighting is a lot less common. We told you the idea was bull****, the idea was proven to be bull****, accept it. Jim Benning built part of this team with a faulty idea of what he needed on the team and it's blown up in his face. Accept the fact and accept reality, or not. Either way, can we stop trumpeting this bull**** now? You've been proven wrong. Move on.

"We" told you the idea was bull****? Who is this we? If you have any strategy that would absolutely guarantee that nobody would ever hit our soft skill players then I'm all ears but you can't because there isn't one. Benning haters can rejoice because Guddy wasn't able to stop everyone from ever hitting EP, an impossible task. You've "proven" nothing.

 

[Michael Dal Swolle]

"Gudbranson might deter injuries" is a worse argument for acquiring him than "Gudbranson definitely will deter injuries", not a better one.

 

[y2kcanucks]

"We" told you the idea was bull****? Who is this we? If you have any strategy that would absolutely guarantee that nobody would ever hit our soft skill players then I'm all ears but you can't because there isn't one. Benning haters can rejoice because Guddy wasn't able to stop everyone from ever hitting EP, an impossible task. You've "proven" nothing.

You must be new here because there's been a very vocal group that have disagreed with the majority of Benning's moves. It's this group that I'm referring to. We did not like a lot of moves, like the Gudbranson acquisition and extension, because he's not a good player and we didn't agree with Benning's claims that he would make it a safe working environment for our youth. Ditto with his signings this off-season (that was one of Benning's reasons for signing the players he did). The safe working environment bullshit has also been the Benning Bro's main crutch for defending some of his acquisitions.

I know these players aren't going to prevent every opposing player from hitting EP (and others), because I also know that these players don't deter anyone at all. That's what I've been saying.

 

[sting101]

Better to be the hammer than the nail.

Did Tom Wilson and his physical play have much of anything to do with Washingtons cup run? It sure did.

The deterrant and safe working environment is in the extra seconds your best players have to make plays on the ice. I doubt that Benning see's it this way but that is the value of tough physical players

without much value but it's always nice to see players not take that extra hack on our goalie after the whistle. Gudbranson does have that effect.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Better to be the hammer than the nail.

Did Tom Wilson and his physical play have much of anything to do with Washingtons cup run? It sure did.

The deterrant and safe working environment is in the extra seconds your best players have to make plays on the ice. I doubt that Benning see's it this way but that is the value of tough physical players

without much value but it's always nice to see players not take that extra hack on our goalie after the whistle. Gudbranson does have that effect.

They've had Tom Wilson for years, how come they didn't win the Cup all those years? I'd say their Cup had more to do with Ovie, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Carlson, and Oshie who had great playoff offensive numbers. Oh yeah, that Holtby guy had something to do with it too considering when he regained the starter job they were trailing 0-2 in the opening series.

Tough physical players are fine if they're good hockey players. In Tom Wilson's case he actually produced offensively in the playoffs at a decent rate. But if they're plugs, like what Benning brings in, that's not going to help the team at all.

 

[Melvin]

Better to be the hammer than the nail.

Did Tom Wilson and his physical play have much of anything to do with Washingtons cup run? It sure did.

The deterrant and safe working environment is in the extra seconds your best players have to make plays on the ice. I doubt that Benning see's it this way but that is the value of tough physical players

without much value but it's always nice to see players not take that extra hack on our goalie after the whistle. Gudbranson does have that effect.

I doubt it.

 

[Addison Rae]

It's utterly insane that we're still having debates about toughness, if someone like Y2KCanucks can have a complete 180 on the idea of it than I'm pretty sure it's already been debunked.

This insane idea that Erik Gudbranson has any positive effect on a NHL game is utter crap. Objectively he's one of the worst defenders in the league and a complete liability on the ice. This guy is garbage at ice hockey and it's that simple, he's replacement level junk who makes the team better when he's off the ice.

Anyway who defends this garbage hockey player is wasting their time.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

It's utterly insane that we're still having debates about toughness, if someone like Y2KCanucks can have a complete 180 on the idea of it than I'm pretty sure it's already been debunked.

This insane idea that Erik Gudbranson has any positive effect on a NHL game is utter crap. Objectively he's one of the worst defenders in the league and a complete liability on the ice. This guy is garbage at ice hockey and it's that simple, he's replacement level junk who makes the team better when he's off the ice.

Anyway who defends this garbage hockey player is wasting their time.

Gudbranson is a great defender. There's a reason why he's highly valued along the league and why Benning got calls and offers for him and will continue to and why he's smart not to trade him. He hits, he clears the crease, he fights, he uses his stick to break up plays in the d-zone, and when he keeps it simple he makes a good outlet pass to his forwards. That's a valuable player. He's not Karlsson or Tanev, just get over it and appreciate him for what he is.

 

[Melvin]

It's utterly insane that we're still having debates about toughness, if someone like Y2KCanucks can have a complete 180 on the idea of it than I'm pretty sure it's already been debunked.

This insane idea that Erik Gudbranson has any positive effect on a NHL game is utter crap. Objectively he's one of the worst defenders in the league and a complete liability on the ice. This guy is garbage at ice hockey and it's that simple, he's replacement level junk who makes the team better when he's off the ice.

Anyway who defends this garbage hockey player is wasting their time.

It really is amazing to me.

It took literally five games for our rookie superstar to get chokeslamed to the ice and concussed but people still believe in their rock that keeps the tigers away (stealing from @PecaFan.)

Sure, he's terrible at hockey and he also didn't prevent our superstar from getting hurt and he hasn't been playing physically or doing anything remotely intimidating since his first shift but uhhh just look at him! He just looks like a hockey player am I right?

 

[Addison Rae]

It really is amazing to me.

It took literally five games for our rookie superstar to get chokeslamed to the ice and concussed but people still believe in their rock that keeps the tigers away (stealing from @PecaFan.)

Sure, he's terrible at hockey and he also didn't prevent our superstar from getting hurt and he hasn't been playing physically or doing anything remotely intimidating since his first shift but uhhh just look at him! He just looks like a hockey pkayer

People love to throw around things that can't be objectively measured as justification for horrible player on horrible contracts. You can't objectively argue that Erik Gudbranson is a good ice hockey player, so people instead use buzzwords and "intangibles". Thus the narratives around leadership, grit, deterrents etc are thrown around each year.

When the teams has a good start, there's talk about "best team in 4 years" how the rebuild is almost over etc and when they burn out it's all okay because "nothing matter when you're rebuilding".

It's the same crap over and over again every year, players and management aren't held accountable for anything because "rebuilding" and "proSpect pool" It kind of defeats the purpose of the games.

 

[Hit the post]

It really is amazing to me.

It took literally five games for our rookie superstar to get chokeslamed to the ice and concussed but people still believe in their rock that keeps the tigers away (stealing from @PecaFan.)

Sure, he's terrible at hockey and he also didn't prevent our superstar from getting hurt and he hasn't been playing physically or doing anything remotely intimidating since his first shift but uhhh just look at him! He just looks like a hockey player am I right?

I'm sure it has SOME influence; but how much is debatable. Still, looking at the username PecaFan, I'm reminded of the headshot Peca gave to Selanne (back when those kinds of hits were the norm - that's what Scott Stevens was known for....) even though the Jets had guys like underated enforcer Jim MacKenzie on the roster [though I can't be 100% certain he was on the iced roster the night of that hit].

 

[xtra]

Gudbranson is a great defender. There's a reason why he's highly valued along the league and why Benning got calls and offers for him and will continue to and why he's smart not to trade him. He hits, he clears the crease, he fights, he uses his stick to break up plays in the d-zone, and when he keeps it simple he makes a good outlet pass to his forwards. That's a valuable player. He's not Karlsson or Tanev, just get over it and appreciate him for what he is.

You can’t defer to authority on something like this it’s a fake arguement.

You remember a couple years ago when those contracts to lucic and eriksson were given out but a lot of us fans called them for how brutal they were/are?

If we used your logic cause they were nhl gms who gave those contracts out they must be good.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

You can’t defer to authority on something like this it’s a fake arguement.

You remember a couple years ago when those contracts to lucic and eriksson were given out but a lot of us fans called them for how brutal they were/are?

If we used your logic cause they were nhl gms who gave those contracts out they must be good.

It's perfectly reasonable to appeal to a legitimate authority to support an argument, which I only did for part of my case in support of Gudbranson. Not the whole thing.

My reasoning wasn't that every NHL GM is automatically and necessarily correct. It was NHL GMs are most likely correct. For example, most NHL contracts given out by GMs are good contracts that strongly correlate with a player's value. You're using outliers like Eriksson and Lucic but that doesn't undermine what I said because I never said GMs must be correct every time nor does my argument rest on that assumption.

By your logic, there's no correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

What you think is my logic = there's a 100% correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

What my logic actually is = there's a strong correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

 

[Askel]

It's perfectly reasonable to appeal to a legitimate authority to support an argument, which I only did for part of my case in support of Gudbranson. Not the whole thing.

My reasoning wasn't that every NHL GM is automatically and necessarily correct. It was NHL GMs are most likely correct. For example, most NHL contracts given out by GMs are good contracts that strongly correlate with a player's value. You're using outliers like Eriksson and Lucic but that doesn't undermine what I said because I never said GMs must be correct every time nor does my argument rest on that assumption.

By your logic, there's no correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

What you think is my logic = there's a 100% correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

What my logic actually is = there's a strong correlation between what a GM gives a player and what that player is actually worth.

Thats not using logic, thats belief that people in power positions are smarter than you. Your argument is pure bullshit, as always

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Thats not using logic, thats belief that people in power positions are smarter than you. Your argument is pure bull****, as always

Let's pretend that Erik Gudbranson is a software developer. If he works at Apple as a software developer and Google, Amazon, and Microsoft are all trying to recruit him to work for them in their software development then would that be evidence that he's a good software developer? It's literally the same reasoning. You can call it bull**** or whatever you want but that's not refuting it or even challenging it on an intellectual level. It's just name calling.

 

[sting101]

They've had Tom Wilson for years, how come they didn't win the Cup all those years? I'd say their Cup had more to do with Ovie, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Carlson, and Oshie who had great playoff offensive numbers. Oh yeah, that Holtby guy had something to do with it too considering when he regained the starter job they were trailing 0-2 in the opening series.

Tough physical players are fine if they're good hockey players. In Tom Wilson's case he actually produced offensively in the playoffs at a decent rate. But if they're plugs, like what Benning brings in, that's not going to help the team at all.

Of course it had more to do with the players you mentioned. Obviously being able to out score your opponent is paramount to any teams success.

the point is Tom Wilson and the way he played created turnovers, time and space for his teammates. This is a fact and his role was a vital piece in the run to the cup.

As far as the comment about winning it before... his role was less as a player who played deeper in the lineup and obviously many factors go into a championship. Many a great players can't even get their teams past the first round or into the playoffs without having the necessary components and some luck....i dont think this needs to be explained to you

 

[sting101]

It really is amazing to me.

It took literally five games for our rookie superstar to get chokeslamed to the ice and concussed but people still believe in their rock that keeps the tigers away (stealing from @PecaFan.)

Sure, he's terrible at hockey and he also didn't prevent our superstar from getting hurt and he hasn't been playing physically or doing anything remotely intimidating since his first shift but uhhh just look at him! He just looks like a hockey player am I right?

Travis Hamonics jaw disagrees

 

[Melvin]

Travis Hamonics jaw disagrees

That'll teach him! Good thing we have gudbranson to deter people from fighting gudbranson.

 

[Askel]

Let's pretend that Erik Gudbranson is a software developer. If he works at Apple as a software developer and Google, Amazon, and Microsoft are all trying to recruit him to work for them in their software development then would that be evidence that he's a good software developer? It's literally the same reasoning. You can call it bull**** or whatever you want but that's not refuting it or even challenging it on an intellectual level. It's just name calling.

So you are saying that there are no overpaid players in this league?
Also your analogy sucks since Benning was the only person who was negotiating with Gudbransson, that other people wanted his overpaid player doesn't mean Benning should overpay him. Its as stupid as defending Gillis letting Ehrhoff go and keeping Ballard with someone once payed Ballard 4,25 million so must be good, when everyone with half a brain could see that he didn't fit this team.

You have absolutely no evidence that other people than Benning wanted to pay Gudbransson 4 million, other teams may have wanted add him a no 6 d-man, but anyone who pay their D-men 6 d-man that much is not doing smart deals.

Oh its impossible to challenge your moronic argument on a intellectual level, since its a complete straw man not based in reality, Whatever I say you will just say that Benning is Gm so he knows more than me.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

So you are saying that there are no overpaid players in this league?
Also your analogy sucks since Benning was the only person who was negotiating with Gudbransson, that other people wanted his overpaid player doesn't mean Benning should overpay him. Its as stupid as defending Gillis letting Ehrhoff go and keeping Ballard with someone once payed Ballard 4,25 million so must be good, when everyone with half a brain could see that he didn't fit this team.

You have absolutely no evidence that other people than Benning wanted to pay Gudbransson 4 million, other teams may have wanted add him a no 6 d-man, but anyone who pay their D-men 6 d-man that much is not doing smart deals.

Oh its impossible to challenge your moronic argument on a intellectual level, since its a complete straw man not based in reality, Whatever I say you will just say that Benning is Gm so he knows more than me.

 

[brokenhole]

It just shows you right there that other G.M.'s are as much of a moron as Benning...it probably was Chia his former boss.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Gudbranson is a great defender. There's a reason why he's highly valued along the league and why Benning got calls and offers for him and will continue to and why he's smart not to trade him. He hits, he clears the crease, he fights, he uses his stick to break up plays in the d-zone, and when he keeps it simple he makes a good outlet pass to his forwards. That's a valuable player. He's not Karlsson or Tanev, just get over it and appreciate him for what he is.

Can you say this with a straight face?

 

[KingOfTheES]

I'm sure it has SOME influence; but how much is debatable. Still, looking at the username PecaFan, I'm reminded of the headshot Peca gave to Selanne (back when those kinds of hits were the norm - that's what Scott Stevens was known for....) even though the Jets had guys like underated enforcer Jim MacKenzie on the roster [though I can't be 100% certain he was on the iced roster the night of that hit].

I remember watching that game on TV. I also remember how there was actually some sort of push-back after the hit. I don't think it's reasonable to think that Beagle, Guds, Roussel, etc will deter any/all cheapshots or dirty plays but with these guys on the roster I'd hope for some sort of push-back after EP40 has been choke-slammed to the ice.

So disgusted with this team at the moment. Doesn't seem like they are playing for each other when all of them can sit on the bench after EP40 can't get up after the choke-slam and the entire team continues to play the rest of the game without any semblance of an edge. Great 'culture' we have built here.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I remember watching that game on TV. I also remember how there was actually some sort of push-back after the hit. I don't think it's reasonable to think that Beagle, Guds, Roussel, etc will deter any/all cheapshots or dirty plays but with these guys on the roster I'd hope for some sort of push-back after EP40 has been choke-slammed to the ice.

So disgusted with this team at the moment. Doesn't seem like they are playing for each other when all of them can sit on the bench after EP40 can't get up after the choke-slam and the entire team continues to play the rest of the game without any semblance of an edge. Great 'culture' we have built here.

How can anyone expect a push back if no one on the ice or on the bench saw the play or even knew what happened until after the game?