Prospect Info: 15th overall — C Dylan Larkin: Larkin signs 3 year entry deal

19 for president

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Apr 28, 2002
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Jurco has also usually need a year in a league to really figure it out and start playing well. I know this was true in the AHL and I believe it happened in minors too, although he put up pretty good point totals. Jurco has a very high skill game and he has to figure out how to balance that with defensive responsiblity and physicality. I'm hoping Blash will give him a bit more free reign offensively to try some stuff than Babs did. Babs saw a big body and wanted him to stick with a grind it out offensive style.

Larkin on the other hand plays a much more standard offensive game. Good shooting and gritty goals. I think his offense transitions easier than Jurco's did. With that said, I say make him earn it in camp. If he is top 9 in camp then he should be on the team. There is no reason we can't run 3 scoring lines next season, so as long as he is top 9 and we are semi healthy, he should be playing on a scoring line. If he is not top 9, I don't want him playing 4th line minutes. I'd rather him be the number 1 center in GR.
 

BinCookin

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Feb 15, 2012
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I think you gota at least give him a look centering the third line this upcoming season. As in, if hes a top 9 player in preseason at least start him on the roster and go from there. If he plays 5 games and looks bad send him down. The AHL against a great team didnt look very difficult for him.

If he doesnt stand out in preseason, sure send him down for a year and give him some call ups

Ideally Holland is responsible for the lineup. I feel like Babcock had his input in there as well.

I do not know if Larkin is NHL ready right now.

There is something to be said about putting a player like Larkin in the NHL right away. And I think it is a dangerous thing to do. You say "if he doesnt produce then send him down" "Whats the worst that can happen?"... Well worst is you destroy his confidence. You shatter the player. Just think of players like Kadri in Toronto. And ask how that worked out for them. Brought up way too early and just manhandled at the NHL level.

Look I hope Larkin does well. But I am on the patience side in this. 1/2 season in the AHL minimum. If he BLOWS YOUR FREAKING SOCKS OFF in camp.... then maybe... What do I mean by that is he has to score >1.5-2 PPG in preseason. Ya it has to be that way, because he wont be vs regular NHL competition.

If he puts up those numbers, its hard to say no. ONLY then. What is 1/2 a season anyway....

Well its enough for Larkin to see how he does in the AHL. I am sorry, but playing 10 games or whatever in the AHL is not a big enough sample size.

I think Jurco was brought up way too early if you ask me. And he is paying for it right now. You don't think not scoring all season is affecting him. I personally would be ok with him going back to the AHL. But you can't really do that now. He is stuck in no man's land. He has to gain confidence in the NHL. And that is a tough thing.

I like Larkin alot. I think we have a good thing with him. He is going to be an NHL player. But treating the player right, having them earn their spot is needed. Mantha is a good example. People wanted him on the team out of camp last year. Yes he had that injury. But people wanted it. Its very possible the injury has little to do with how he did this year. He did not look dominant even at the end of the year. He is watching pulkinnen right now... learning how you have to do in the AHL before u get to the NHL.

Work ethic. I do not think skipping this development system is good for any player involved. I don't care how good they are. (Exceptions: McDavid/Eichel - Thats it)
 

Chex LeMeneux

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May 4, 2014
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Ideally Holland is responsible for the lineup. I feel like Babcock had his input in there as well.

I do not know if Larkin is NHL ready right now.

There is something to be said about putting a player like Larkin in the NHL right away. And I think it is a dangerous thing to do. You say "if he doesnt produce then send him down" "Whats the worst that can happen?"... Well worst is you destroy his confidence. You shatter the player. Just think of players like Kadri in Toronto. And ask how that worked out for them. Brought up way too early and just manhandled at the NHL level.

Look I hope Larkin does well. But I am on the patience side in this. 1/2 season in the AHL minimum. If he BLOWS YOUR FREAKING SOCKS OFF in camp.... then maybe... What do I mean by that is he has to score >1.5-2 PPG in preseason. Ya it has to be that way, because he wont be vs regular NHL competition.

If he puts up those numbers, its hard to say no. ONLY then. What is 1/2 a season anyway....

Well its enough for Larkin to see how he does in the AHL. I am sorry, but playing 10 games or whatever in the AHL is not a big enough sample size.

I think Jurco was brought up way too early if you ask me. And he is paying for it right now. You don't think not scoring all season is affecting him. I personally would be ok with him going back to the AHL. But you can't really do that now. He is stuck in no man's land. He has to gain confidence in the NHL. And that is a tough thing.

I like Larkin alot. I think we have a good thing with him. He is going to be an NHL player. But treating the player right, having them earn their spot is needed. Mantha is a good example. People wanted him on the team out of camp last year. Yes he had that injury. But people wanted it. Its very possible the injury has little to do with how he did this year. He did not look dominant even at the end of the year. He is watching pulkinnen right now... learning how you have to do in the AHL before u get to the NHL.

Work ethic. I do not think skipping this development system is good for any player involved. I don't care how good they are. (Exceptions: McDavid/Eichel - Thats it)

Agree on all accounts. I said last summer Jurco needed to stay in the AHL to get a shot at being "the guy". That was a very unpopular opinion. Yet sure enough, he stays in the NHL and has the sophomore slump from hell.

You make a good point about Mantha as well. 33 points may not have been what we wanted out of Mantha, but at least it's something. Had he been up with the Wings, chances are he doesn't produce anything for quite some time, gets put in Babcock's doghouse and relegated to the fourth line. I can understand being pissed off when a guy like Nyquist is getting buried when he's clearly ready, but insisting a guy with only half a dozen AHL games under his belt plays in the NHL, is a bit much.
 

detredWINgs

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Jan 1, 2004
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Ideally Holland is responsible for the lineup. I feel like Babcock had his input in there as well.

I do not know if Larkin is NHL ready right now.

There is something to be said about putting a player like Larkin in the NHL right away. And I think it is a dangerous thing to do. You say "if he doesnt produce then send him down" "Whats the worst that can happen?"... Well worst is you destroy his confidence. You shatter the player. Just think of players like Kadri in Toronto. And ask how that worked out for them. Brought up way too early and just manhandled at the NHL level.

Look I hope Larkin does well. But I am on the patience side in this. 1/2 season in the AHL minimum. If he BLOWS YOUR FREAKING SOCKS OFF in camp.... then maybe... What do I mean by that is he has to score >1.5-2 PPG in preseason. Ya it has to be that way, because he wont be vs regular NHL competition.

If he puts up those numbers, its hard to say no. ONLY then. What is 1/2 a season anyway....

Well its enough for Larkin to see how he does in the AHL. I am sorry, but playing 10 games or whatever in the AHL is not a big enough sample size.

I think Jurco was brought up way too early if you ask me. And he is paying for it right now. You don't think not scoring all season is affecting him. I personally would be ok with him going back to the AHL. But you can't really do that now. He is stuck in no man's land. He has to gain confidence in the NHL. And that is a tough thing.

I like Larkin alot. I think we have a good thing with him. He is going to be an NHL player. But treating the player right, having them earn their spot is needed. Mantha is a good example. People wanted him on the team out of camp last year. Yes he had that injury. But people wanted it. Its very possible the injury has little to do with how he did this year. He did not look dominant even at the end of the year. He is watching pulkinnen right now... learning how you have to do in the AHL before u get to the NHL.

Work ethic. I do not think skipping this development system is good for any player involved. I don't care how good they are. (Exceptions: McDavid/Eichel - Thats it)

First off, let me say this: I am definitely on the "hold your horses" side of things when it comes to Larkin. I have grown to like him a lot in the course of 6 months or so, and while that makes me really hopeful, it also makes me very wary of buying into the hype and having that obscure my vision.

However....

This is Ken Holland's team. Mike Babcock is about as big an ego/celebrity/institution as you can get in the NHL coaching world, and Ken Holland was still the guy saying "Ouellet isn't a regular - Lashoff, Kindl et al. are." There is no doubt in my mind that Holland will have nearly carte blanche when it comes to roster decisions while having a rookie coach (whether or not that is a good thing is a different convo). I have many criticisms to make about Holland, but buying into the hype of a prospect is not one of them. Larkin will absolutely not be in the NHL if he doesn't blow us away in camp. And even then, he will not be in the NHL long if he doesn't blow us away in the NHL...Which brings me to my next point: Larkin will (likewise) absolutely not play in the NHL for 9 games if he's bombing. Which is actually a pretty great psychological move from a management perspective (although I think Holland uses it too much): he often rides the line when it comes to giving a player enough to time to show his stuff in the NHL. Ergo, I would bet big money that if Larkin doesn't look competent in the NHL after 2-3 games, he'll be back in the AHL. And that may be the perfect amount of time for Holland to say "yeah, this kid isn't ready" while Larkin is still thinking "man, I could totally play in this league if they just gave me a few more games to adjust" and then proceeding to destroy the AHL and soak up all he can from the AHL atmosphere en route to a full-time NHL spot. 9 games in the NHL is a month in some cases, while 2-3 games is a week. If you're destroying an NHL prospect's confidence in 2-3 games, then that problem goes far behind when and how you cut him from an NHL squad.

As for the Kadri comparison, you're talking about a top 10 pick who was endorsed by Brian Burke and was rushed onto the NHL's biggest stage while being a high-skilled prospect with notable issues regarding his character and defensive game. Larkin is almost the inverse of that: notable character strengths and a solid defensive game with (at the time of drafting) a questionable ceiling in terms of skill. Not only do I question that comparison, but players who are lauded for their character, a la Larkin, are typically much more resilient when it comes to adversity and much more receptive when it comes to criticism than those who build careers on skilled. I recognize this is a generalization, but I think its relevant nonetheless.

As for the "10 game sample size," I think thats a little short-sighted. Larkin isn't being show-ponied because of 10 games - He's getting the credit because he had a good NCAA first half...followed by a great WJC...then an impressive NCAA second-half...then a solid Worlds...then a great pro debut. All in all, its more like a great year playing against peers, amateurs, pros, and men.

Lastly, I don't necessarily disagree about Jurco being rushed, but part of me wonders if Babcock recognized Jurco's versatility and petitioned for him to stay. Babcock is a fan of big bodies and may have had hopes of conforming Jurco into being a more-skilled Abdelkader by way of indoctrination. Its just a thought. Either way, if Jurco is 15 lbs lighter and two inches shorter, I'd bet my life he's in the AHL at some point in early 2015.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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Nov 8, 2007
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Philadelphia
I think both the trepidation and enthusiasm about starting Larkin in the AHL are understandable positions. I think we'll all be a little more uniform on the subject come training camp.
 

BinCookin

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Feb 15, 2012
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London, ON
This is a great response. Thanks detredWINgs :)

I'll just comment on a few bits:

Larkin will (likewise) absolutely not play in the NHL for 9 games if he's bombing. Which is actually a pretty great psychological move from a management perspective (although I think Holland uses it too much): he often rides the line when it comes to giving a player enough to time to show his stuff in the NHL. Ergo, I would bet big money that if Larkin doesn't look competent in the NHL after 2-3 games, he'll be back in the AHL. And that may be the perfect amount of time for Holland to say "yeah, this kid isn't ready" while Larkin is still thinking "man, I could totally play in this league if they just gave me a few more games to adjust" and then proceeding to destroy the AHL and soak up all he can from the AHL atmosphere en route to a full-time NHL spot. 9 games in the NHL is a month in some cases, while 2-3 games is a week. If you're destroying an NHL prospect's confidence in 2-3 games, then that problem goes far behind when and how you cut him from an NHL squad.


I agree this could totally happen. I think the jist that I felt from some other posters is that Larkin deserved a full time spot (which i disagreed with). You are also right in that I don't really look at Larkin as being susceptible to having his dreams crushed by a little player mismanagement... but again, IF someone was hoping for Larkin to get ALOT of games next year... I think it would be a mistake (unless they are nearer to the end of the season (1/2 a season)).

As for the Kadri comparison, you're talking about a top 10 pick who was endorsed by Brian Burke and was rushed onto the NHL's biggest stage while being a high-skilled prospect with notable issues regarding his character and defensive game. Larkin is almost the inverse of that: notable character strengths and a solid defensive game with (at the time of drafting) a questionable ceiling in terms of skill.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to really compare the 2 players, but simply pointing out how much of a hard time it was for Kadri to be brought up too early. IMO it was a poor decision on the TML organization that I think affected Kadri. That being said Larkin is likely nothing like Kadri but i think confidence is a universal thing, Larkin could handle failure better than Kadri, but why put him in the spot to do so for no reason?

As for the "10 game sample size," I think thats a little short-sighted. Larkin isn't being show-ponied because of 10 games - He's getting the credit because he had a good NCAA first half...followed by a great WJC...then an impressive NCAA second-half...then a solid Worlds...then a great pro debut. All in all, its more like a great year playing against peers, amateurs, pros, and men.

Agreed, he has had an amazing year. I am really excited about him. I can be a bit like Holland in this regard (patience), that although he did very well, when it comes to NHL readiness, I mostly measure our AHL performance.

Lastly, I don't necessarily disagree about Jurco being rushed, but part of me wonders if Babcock recognized Jurco's versatility and petitioned for him to stay. Babcock is a fan of big bodies and may have had hopes of conforming Jurco into being a more-skilled Abdelkader by way of indoctrination. Its just a thought. Either way, if Jurco is 15 lbs lighter and two inches shorter, I'd bet my life he's in the AHL at some point in early 2015.

Its unfortunate Jurco wasn't given more time to be the top dog in the AHL. I really hope he improves for next year.
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
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Toronto
That seems dramatic. Helm with hands would probably score 25+ goals

Yeah maybe a little, I just mean that Larkin is our best center prospect by a very large margin. Sheahan could be a 2nd line center, but we really need someone that can be a 1st line C. My Helm with hands comparison was meant to say a third line C with speed that pots 20 goals and 40 points a season. Not bad by any stretch of the imagination and I would have been ecstatic when we drafted him if you told me that's what he'd be, but after the potential he's shown I think he could be the answer fr our #1 C and it would be great if that's what he becomes.


In regards to the comments saying the A isn't the only place for him to learn to be more of a scorer, it is true that some guys learn their O in the NHL, and that Larkin has proven himself to be a player that could play in the league and that he could potentially learn to be a scorer in the NHL. Maybe if he's dominating in preseason or dominating the A you give him that shot (he should probably get 5-10 games in the NHL regardless just to learn what the NHL is about), but I still stand by the notion that playing on the first line with PP and PK minutes in the AHL and being one of the team's premier players is better for learning to be a scorer in pros than sitting on the third/fourth line in the NHL, playing on the PK maybe, but no PP.

I think the biggest difference in my view from many of you is how ready Larkin is. I just don't think his offensive game is ready for the NHL yet. His D is and he's very close to being physically ready if he isn't already so that should be taken care of after the summer, but I think he can develop into a more creative offensive player by continuing to dominate. Less than a month ago it looked like a legitimate possibility he'd stay in NCAA. I think he would be too good for the NCAA so I like the idea of jumping to the AHL, but I just don't think we can say he's too good for the AHL and thus good enough for the NHL without seeing him be a PPG and score a lot of goals in 20-30ish AHL games first.
 

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