Post-Game Talk: 12/17/17 | Flames 6 @ Canucks 1 | All the killer bees now out

[Bleach Clean]

There are few options at this point with Sutter and Dorsett out and all the injuries we have.
Do you not think that in order to stay on the roster he has to put some points on the board?
I doubt he's even in the league next year.

He has to put up points. No question. I will not refute this. However, how many points and how he is judged when not putting up points are the issues here. When he is getting wracked with the toughest minutes on the team, what is the appropriate expectation? It's not 'score as usual'. That would make him one of the best shut down players in the game. That's not the bar.

Gaunce-Sutter-Dorsett was a line before Sutter and Dorsett went out. So injuries are not the reason to overuse Gaunce in a defensive role. Further, why would a sub-standard 4th liner be overused? And in that use, come out level. This does not align with the theory that he is not a "good 4th liner". If anything, he's being used as a hard minute 3rd liner. That's his utility right now. Agree/Disagree? (I'm only talking about usage, not points)

 

[Pip]

Not true. Good 4th liners have to contribute offensively in today's NHL. The only reason he gets the support he does, is that he's a Gillis leftover.

It’s totally fine that your evaluation doesn’t go any further than simple counting stats, but you’re really off the mark as to why some people like Gaunce in his role.

 

[Peen]

I don't think @Bonose and likeminded posters realize that a majority of us (us being those who want benning fired) actually agreed with Gillis' firing. His handling of the team post 2012 was not good. (Clearly in hindsight there was a lot of meddling from ownership that stopped him from doing what he reportedly wanted to do, which was rebuild/retool)

But his not good was a hell of a lot better than anything from Benning's tenure.

My point is that when a gm isn't performing well, he should be fired. Accountability is a thing. No matter who it is.

 

[MS]

So you also disagree that 4th liners should contribute offensively?

Absolutely.

All that matters is that players have a positive impact on their team's goal differential. This can be accomplished through good defence or good offense or both.

If Gaunce only scores 8 points all season but consistently plays tough minutes and saws those minutes off with neither team scoring much ... he's an effective player doing a great job and his lack of offence is completely irrelevant.

 

[MS]

Orcatown aside, because I know and trust that they watch the games, and I’m okay with respecting a totally differing opinion from someone I respect - I really wonder what some folks are watching with Gaunce.

Yeah, he has zero goals, but in last night’s game, for example, he was fairly regularly turning play in the right direction, often through multiple solo efforts while teammates just stood around. He was creating things through his speed and hustle while a guy like, say, Virtanen - with all that natural ability - was not, and if I’m a coach, those are things I notice in a game like that.

I honestly have no idea how anyone can watch that game last night and come away with a negative opinion on Gaunce.

The guy was just flat-out the best forward on the ice for us. Took all the toughest zone starts and didn't get scored on while doing a great job pushing the play forward. Did great work on the PK. Had three of the team's best 4 scoring chances on the night (a breakaway, a really nice solo chip/chase coming down the wing, and a shot from the slot that beat the goalie and was headed in but hit a Flame defender standing at the post in the back). Skated miles.

 

[Addison Rae]

I've said it here before in this very thread but watching posters crap on Hutton yet give Pouliot a pass clearly shows their bias.

Pouliot looks like the guy Pittsburgh turfed for essentially nothing recently, and is tracking to be a dime a dozen poor bottom pairing defender no different than Yannick Weber and Patrick Wiercioch. Hutton at least has the sample size of being a quality NHL defender.

As for the Gaunce debate, it seems like some people don't grasp how hockey works very well. Gaunce is being deployed in the role Marcus Kruger was on the championship winning Chicago teams. Patrick Kane was always given such favourable deployment because of the work of Marcus Kruger in his ridiculously hard deployment. Look at what Manny Malhotra did for the Sedins deployment.. But yeah "points!1!11!" haha then the poster turns around and mentions he's happy about Erik Gudbranson returning, my god.

 

[Nomobo]

Absolutely.

All that matters is that players have a positive impact on their team's goal differential. This can be accomplished through good defence or good offense or both.

If Gaunce only scores 8 points all season but consistently plays tough minutes and saws those minutes off with neither team scoring much ... he's an effective player doing a great job and his lack of offence is completely irrelevant.

Completely irrelevant eh?
Somehow I get the feeling that you just want to be right and reality be damned.
Go ahead and come up with some current players with similar stats as Gaunce.

 

[2011 still hurts]

In my post you quoted I stated that a 4th liner should put some points up.
You chose to ignore that because you don't have an answer to that.

brings up the fact that decent offensive production is necessary even from utility guys and still thinks Sutter (6 points in 23 games) and Gudbranson (0 points all season) are quality assets lmao

Stop cherry picking. If you expect a lot more offensive production from a 23 year old 4th line shutdown center then hold your 28 year old 3rd line "foundational center" and "great physical defensmen" to the same standard.

 

[2011 still hurts]

Completely irrelevant eh?
Somehow I get the feeling that you just want to be right and reality be damned.
Go ahead and come up with some current players with similar stats as Gaunce.

sutter
gudbranson

 

[MS]

Completely irrelevant eh?
Somehow I get the feeling that you just want to be right and reality be damned.
Go ahead and come up with some current players with similar stats as Gaunce.

Marcus Kruger has 1 goal this season playing the same type role.

Oskar Sundqvist has 0.

Nick Shore has 2.

Austin Watson has 3.

Boone Jenner (a former 30-goal scorer when used differently) has 3.

 

[Nomobo]

sutter
gudbranson

Ridiculous comparisons and you know it. Try again.

 

[racerjoe]

Ridiculous comparisons and you know it. Try again.

? How is Sutter a bad comparison?

 

[PG Canuck]

Ridiculous comparisons and you know it. Try again.

Sutter is a "ridiculous comparison"? Isn't Sutter glorified as a shutdown C by some here?

 

[Nomobo]

Marcus Kruger has 1 goal this season playing the same type role.

Oskar Sundqvist has 0.

Nick Shore has 2.

Austin Watson has 3.

Boone Jenner (a former 30-goal scorer when used differently) has 3.

Good work. Now you're going to tell me these six guys all play key pivotal roles on their teams as you claim Gaunce does, right? And they all play for teams that have trouble scoring, right? And the all play soft as butter, right?
Do these point totals include assists?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I've said it here before in this very thread but watching posters crap on Hutton yet give Pouliot a pass clearly shows their bias.

Pouliot looks like the guy Pittsburgh turfed for essentially nothing recently, and is tracking to be a dime a dozen poor bottom pairing defender no different than Yannick Weber and Patrick Wiercioch. Hutton at least has the sample size of being a quality NHL defender.

As for the Gaunce debate, it seems like some people don't grasp how hockey works very well. Gaunce is being deployed in the role Marcus Kruger was on the championship winning Chicago teams. Patrick Kane was always given such favourable deployment because of the work of Marcus Kruger in his ridiculously hard deployment. Look at what Manny Malhotra did for the Sedins deployment.. But yeah "points!1!11!" haha then the poster turns around and mentions he's happy about Erik Gudbranson returning, my god.

Bias against Hutton,and giving Pouliot a pass..are you serious.??...Read this...and this is before Pouliot even played a second in a Canucks uniform.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...8-4th-round-pick-for-derrick-pouliot.2393713/

 

[Nomobo]

Sutter is a "ridiculous comparison"? Isn't Sutter glorified as a shutdown C by some here?

I'd say so, for sure.

 

[2011 still hurts]

Ridiculous comparisons and you know it. Try again.

Sutter is a ridiculous comparison? I was half-joking on Gudbranson but lmao at thinking Sutter is a bad comparable.

like how you conveniently ignore this post btw:

brings up the fact that decent offensive production is necessary even from utility guys and still thinks Sutter (6 points in 23 games) and Gudbranson (0 points all season) are quality assets lmao

Stop cherry picking. If you expect a lot more offensive production from a 23 year old 4th line shutdown center then hold your 28 year old 3rd line "foundational center" and "great physical defensmen" to the same standard.

 

[rune74]

Sutter is a "ridiculous comparison"? Isn't Sutter glorified as a shutdown C by some here?

You think Gaunce is a better player then Sutter? Why?

 

[Addison Rae]

Bias against Hutton,and giving Pouliot a pass..are you serious.??...Read this...and this is before Pouliot even played a second in a Canucks uniform.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...8-4th-round-pick-for-derrick-pouliot.2393713/

And you're telling me that wasn't warranted, did you ever track Pouliot before the trade? He was entering his draft + 6 seasons and was yet to crack a NHL roster and was passed on by numerous player in the Penguins system.

He had a good little stretch of games, but has been absolutely destroyed recently. In his past 6 games he has 0 points and is a whopping -10, if anyone needs to sit it's him.

 

[PG Canuck]

You think Gaunce is a better player then Sutter? Why?

I said that? I asked why it is a ridiculous comparison, not Gaunce is easily better than Sutter...and you guys jump on us for jumping to conclusions? Gaunce is being deployed as a shutdown center, one of which Sutter is to some here. Is Sutter not that anymore?

 

[rune74]

I said that? I asked why it is a ridiculous comparison, not Gaunce is easily better than Sutter...and you guys jump on us for jumping to conclusions?

What the hell are you talking about "us"?

Thought we were all fans posting on the canucks.

 

[PG Canuck]

What the hell are you talking about "us"?

Thought we were all fans posting on the canucks.

Why is Gaunce and Sutter a ridiculous comparison? Why are you both avoiding this?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Absolutely.

All that matters is that players have a positive impact on their team's goal differential. This can be accomplished through good defence or good offense or both.

If Gaunce only scores 8 points all season but consistently plays tough minutes and saws those minutes off with neither team scoring much ... he's an effective player doing a great job and his lack of offence is completely irrelevant.

It will never be "completely irrelevant". Gaunce is expected to put up points in accordance with other 4th liners. The difference is that the scale has to be adjusted to the difficulty of his minutes. Since we don't normally assume that the impact of QoC will reduce a player's offense to zero, this lack of offense argument doesn't come up. Gaunce is the unique case where it does, so we are left with judging an extreme case.

Gaunce's longevity will be tied to his production and his ability to affect goal differentials. A combination, not one aspect over the other entirely. There will always be question marks about his NHL viability until he produces. Regardless of how progressive the fans or coaches actually are about his play.

The question is not: Can I accept this player as an NHL regular with zero production? It should be: How much production is acceptable given his usage. To me, 8-10 points would be acceptable too, but he's well short of that mark.

 

[rune74]

Why is Gaunce and Sutter a ridiculous comparison? Why are you both avoiding this?

Why are you avoiding what I just said, am I not the same as any other poster here? Why am I different then others to you? Us? Explain that.

I never said it was aridiculous comparison, Sutter is better though.

 

[PG Canuck]

Why are you avoiding what I just said, am I not the same as any other poster here? Why am I different then others to you? Us? Explain that.

I never said it was aridiculous comparison, Sutter is better though.

Huh? We are all Canucks - are you not familiar with our team slogan?