Post-Game Talk: #11: FLYERS at Penguins, Tuesday, Oct. 29, 2019, 7:00 pm ET

[Peacekeeper]

Nobody is arguing that he is Crosby. That's the whole point.

My entire point here is how ludicrous the Blame Giroux movement is. I'm doing this by comparing it to the Crosby Is A Choker movement.

Turns out Crosby isn't a choker, he just needed a better cast and coach. Same is true for every superstar that has ever played. That is how hockey works. Blaming Giroux is stupid.

Well you mentioned Crosby and Gretzky as comparables..

Everybody loves Giroux but the fact is he hasn't delivered like those stars you compared him too. If he needs everything picture perfect that's just not gonna happen.

The leaders of war don't get to blame their soilders for losing.. You have to find a way to win and Giroux hasn't. 4 points (1 goal) in his last 12 playoff games. I could understand if he was lights out and the team failed him, but he didn't play any good himself.

That's the life of being a captain, you take a lot of the credit when things are going well, & much of the blame when it isn't.. especially in Philly

The sad thing is, G is 32 in a few months.. so that supporting cast you're talking about needs to arrive soon

 

[Rebels57]

Steve Yzerman. What a choker. Bad captain. Soft. Bad in playoffs. Just move on from him.

Oh, wait, this is not 1994.

And Yzerman was a superior player to Giroux ofc.

But when your 4th best forward in Shawn Burr, there is no bottom six, and Rick Zombo is on the top pair it is hard to win no matter how good Yzerman was.

Which is similar as the Flyers from 2012-2018 in effect. They had no chance even when Giroux was a Hart contender.
Because on average over that time they had:
5x top 6 fwds
7x top 9 fwds
0x top pair D
2-3x top 4 D
A goalie in 3/6 years.

Holy f***, Rick Zombo reference.

 

[Peacekeeper]

You don't think it's cool to call Crosby a choker? Why the **** not? Embrace the hate, for ****'s sake.

Because he's not...

He's a bitch. But he's a bitch with 3 trophies

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well you mentioned Crosby and Gretzky as comparables..

Everybody loves Giroux but the fact is he hasn't delivered like those stars you compared him too. If he needs everything picture perfect that's just not gonna happen.

The leaders of war don't get to blame their soilders for losing.. You have to find a way to win and Giroux hasn't. 4 points (1 goal) in his last 12 playoff games. I could understand if he was lights out and the team failed him, but he didn't play any good himself.

That's the life of being a captain, you take a lot of the credit when things are going well, & much of the blame when it isn't.. especially in Philly

The sad thing is, G is 32 in a few months.. so that supporting cast you're talking about needs to arrive soon

I didn't mention them to compare Giroux to as players, you're misreading. I mentioned them to highlight that these far superior players were unable to win alone and required competent teammates and management to succeed.

That people expect Giroux to do even better than them is dumb.

Have you forgotten how badly mishandled the team was under Hakstol? He got caved in during the playoffs. He kept the team in a cowering shell against Washington and chased the exact matchups Sullivan wanted; he made it as hard as possible for anyone on the team to produce. Giroux cannot overcome bad coaching and bad GMing all alone and blaming him is laughable. Captains aren't gods.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Because he's not...

He's a *****. But he's a ***** with 3 trophies

Again - who gives a ****? He's the enemy. He has enough people slobbering all over him.

 

[Appleyard]

I didn't mention them to compare Giroux to as players, you're misreading. I mentioned them to highlight that these far superior players were unable to win alone and required competent teammates and management to succeed.

That people expect Giroux to do even better than them is dumb.

Giroux is a better player than Toews, ROR and Backstrom, arguably Kopitar (I would say pretty evenish).

Those guys have 7 of the last 10 cups as the #1C on their team.

But they also also had:

One of the best ~5-10 Dmen in the NHL
~7x top six forward.
A very good starter.

 

[Peacekeeper]

I didn't mention them to compare Giroux to as players, you're misreading. I mentioned them to highlight that these far superior players were unable to win alone and required competent teammates and management to succeed.

That people expect Giroux to do even better than them is dumb.

I do see your point. Really it's hard to imagine anyone putting those Flyers teams on their back. He was just invisible the last 2 playoff series and that's what fans remember.. the fire he had in the pens series was far too long ago

 

[Peacekeeper]

Again - who gives a ****? He's the enemy. He has enough people slobbering all over him.

They say in order to hate passionately, you must have once loved..

Admit it, you want an autographed Sidney Crosby jock strap

Lol

 

[Appleyard]

I do see your point. Really it's hard to imagine anyone putting those Flyers teams on their back. He was just invisible the last 2 playoff series and that's what fans remember.. the fire he had in the pens series was far too long ago

ROR went from a guy who was apparently a locker room issue, crashing cars drunk into Tim Horton's, inconsistent play, overrated, not a leader, not a 1C, never showed up when got to the playoffs.

To the Conn Smythe.

Because he finally had a deep team around him with:

A top 5-10 Dman in the league.
7x top 6 forwards.
A good bottom six.
A good goalie.

That is the Stanley Cup formula in the modern NHL. Every team who wins fits the same base parameters. As do pretty much every team that makes the finals.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

They say in order to hate passionately, you must have once loved..

Admit it, you want an autographed Sidney Crosby jock strap

Lol

I can't even begin to describe what I would do to that rat. I mean I literally can't - the rage won't settle enough to let me type it out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I do see your point. Really it's hard to imagine anyone putting those Flyers teams on their back. He was just invisible the last 2 playoff series and that's what fans remember.. the fire he had in the pens series was far too long ago

Judging anyone based on those Hakstol series is a mistake. Even judging Hagg and MacDonald from those series is risky because Hakstol put them in the absolute worst possible position imaginable; the idiot actually pursued Crosby with them. If he were working to sabotage the team on purpose he could not have done better. They're the two worst managed playoffs I've ever seen from any coach on any team. Every aspect of their approach was numbskulled from who he elected to have play to how they were used on the ice. I remember when I thought Berube's sluggish rate of adjustment against NYR was a big problem. Which, normally, yeah, that is a big problem; but compared to Hakstol it was nothing. He combined no adjustment with aggressive stupidity.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux wasn't Giroux for three years -- the injuries really sapped his skill at center.
2014-2017: 36, 38, 26 ES points, good 3C production. Still a top PP producer, but not an elite player.
Then he moved to LW with Couts and regained his mojo.

The Giroux at center experiment hopefully will be short-lived.

 

[Appleyard]

Giroux wasn't Giroux for three years -- the injuries really sapped his skill at center.
2014-2017: 36, 38, 26 ES points, good 3C production. Still a top PP producer, but not an elite player.
Then he moved to LW with Couts and regained his mojo.

The Giroux at center experiment hopefully will be short-lived.

2016-17 was really the only "bad" year.

His 5v5 scoring in 2014-16 was okay, and his underlying figures were good. He was top 10 in NHL scoring in 2014-15 and the year after would have likely came ~15th if he did not miss games. He got Hart votes that year still...

Those years were just a different scoring climate than now.

70 points then = 85 right now.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

It's also instructive to consider Messier as the converse to Yzerman -- a great player and a winner, no doubt, but look at the last ten years of his career, once he was no longer playing on utterly stacked teams. But that narrative of performance and especially great leadership persists despite destroying those Vancouver teams from within.

Probably best not to put too much weight on an individual playing only about a third of the game in a heavily distributed team sport.

 

[Appleyard]

2016-17 was really the only "bad" year.

His 5v5 scoring in 2014-16 was okay, and his underlying figures were good. He was top 10 in NHL scoring in 2014-15 and the year after would have likely came ~15th if he did not miss games. He got Hart votes that year still...

Those years were just a different scoring climate than now.

70 points then = 85 right now.

Giroux production amongst NHL C's (Pts & PPG):

2010-11: 5th, 10th
2011-12: 3rd, 2nd
2012-13: 8th, 10th
2013-14: 3rd, 6th
2014-15: 5th, 9th
2015-16: 9th, 12th

 

[Peacekeeper]

I get that Giroux has been dealt an unfortunate hand..

We couldn't build a team around him. The question is, as we wait for our prospects to step up, Giroux is getting older to the point production will decline. So who's our next Giroux? If he falls off in 2 years is this current group good enough to compensate? Do we make trades? Good FA pickup?

I think the (small) crowd who yell for G, or V traded (after a loss) believe that they were not good enough to win with them, and as they decline they surely won't be good enough to win.

That's the mindset I believe they have.. so it's easy to see their frustration, especially after the last 5 years

 

[BrindamoursNose]

ROR went from a guy who was apparently a locker room issue, crashing cars drunk into Tim Horton's, inconsistent play, overrated, not a leader, not a 1C, never showed up when got to the playoffs.

To the Conn Smythe.

Because he finally had a deep team around him with:

A top 5-10 Dman in the league.
7x top 6 forwards.
A good bottom six.
A good goalie.

That is the Stanley Cup formula in the modern NHL. Every team who wins fits the same base parameters. As do pretty much every team that makes the finals.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the comparison I've been making when we signed Kevin Hayes. I don't see a massive difference between Kevin Hayes and ROR (at the time of his extension). Yet one is being lauded as a titan of the NHL (ROR) and the other is an overpaid aardvark.

I still see them as comparable players, with ROR probably a little better.

But I don't know advanced stats, so feel free to correct my perception.

 

[Appleyard]

I get that Giroux has been dealt an unfortunate hand..

We couldn't build a team around him. The question is, as we wait for our prospects to step up, Giroux is getting older to the point production will decline. So who's our next Giroux? If he falls off in 2 years is this current group good enough to compensate? Do we make trades? Good FA pickup?

I think the (small) crowd who yell for G, or V traded (after a loss) believe that they were not good enough to win with them, and as they decline they surely won't be good enough to win.

That's the mindset I believe they have.. so it's easy to see their frustration, especially after the last 5 years

St. Louis dont have a Giroux. They arguably dont have a fwd as good as Couturier. Brayden Schenn is their 3rd best fwd when he was our 4th-5th best when he left. L.A and Boston did not really have a "star" fwd when they won either.

What they did have was more than 6x top 6 guys, team depth, a #1 Dman, 4x top 4Dmen and a #1 goalie.

The Flyers winning will depend on Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Hart continuing to develop... and Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom, Farabee, Frost, Rubtsov etc continuing to develop.

It would not be crazy to see Giroux play say a: Hossa/Gaborik type role on the Flyers in a couple of years.

Remember, Chicago, L.A. Boston, Penguins all had to go out and get a "veteran" top ~line player to tip them over the top.

 

[Appleyard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the comparison I've been making when we signed Kevin Hayes. I don't see a massive difference between Kevin Hayes and ROR (at the time of his extension). Yet one is being lauded as a titan of the NHL (ROR) and the other is an overpaid aardvark.

I still see them as comparable players, with ROR probably a little better.

But I don't know advanced stats, so feel free to correct my perception.

I think ROR is better... but they are not massively far apart. Hayes is probably a marginally better scorer but not as good defensively or as good a play-driver.

I'd take:

Couturier-Hayes

over

ROR-Schenn

in a vacuum (I imagine 90% of people would logically!)... (but we dont have Bozak at 3C...)

 

[deadhead]

2016-17 was really the only "bad" year.

His 5v5 scoring in 2014-16 was okay, and his underlying figures were good. He was top 10 in NHL scoring in 2014-15 and the year after would have likely came ~15th if he did not miss games. He got Hart votes that year still...

Those years were just a different scoring climate than now.

70 points then = 85 right now.

Got to separate ES from PP scoring, Simmonds was a top PP scorer even when he had declined to a marginal 3RW.
Two different skill sets.

 

[deadhead]

I think ROR is better... but they are not massively far apart. Hayes is probably a marginally better scorer but not as good defensively or as good a play-driver.

(but we dont have Bozak at 3C...)

I'd take Hayes over ROR on the PK as well.
We do have Patrick/Frost at some point, in a year or two they should be as good as 32 year old Bozak.
Just a shame Patrick gets sidelined when he should be ready to take a step up.

Should we sacrifice Taryn to the Hockey Gods?

 

[flyerslducks]

I agree with your overall point but no matter how you spin it, Fletcher is a dunce. If the reason we're forced to keep slop like Pitlick, Stewart, and Hagg in the lineup is because we're in a cap pinch, then that's on Fletch for mismanaging the cap considering how much cap space we had going into the offseason. That's not the reason though, because if Fletcher wanted to, he could send all 3 down and call up Frost, Ruby and Myers and we'd still be under/at the cap. The only possible reason for Fletcher choosing not to do this because he thinks Hagg, Stewie and Pitlick add value.

Also, where did couturier go?

hahahaa i cant believe i forgot our best fwd what the heck is wrong iwth me llol