GDT: 11/29/18 - 7:30PM EDT - Buffalo vs Tampa Bay

[These Are The Days]

You keep pretending this team hasn't had coaching issues over the years, as if we haven't fired every single assistant and associate coach Cooper has ever had, and as if every single one of those changes didn't improve things.

Cooper's most egregious flaw is that he never developed an effective zone entry scheme on the power play about 2 or 3 years ago (until Drouin almost singlehadedly fixed it) and used a 1-3-1 to hold leads until he changed it last year with a more conventional trap and in all those years not a single fan here can tell us what Steve Thomas or Brad Lauer did. Oh and Bowness never made any changes to his system to accommodate the loss of Bishop. It's easiest to say that as the coaching has improved so too has the roster ---- DRAMATICALLY. Notice how Cooper's system stopped being broken 2 years ago as soon as Callahan and Killorn were no longer relied on as a primary source of offense and were bottom line players, Filppula was traded and Namestnikov was put with the only 2 guys who could make him play well until we traded him? Not to mention the additions of Point, Gourde, McDonagh et al.

Cooper has otherwise seen us to a SCF in a year we never expected to be there and Johnson got hurt. We pushed the Pens to game 7 with Bishop hurt, Stralman on a single leg and Stamkos fresh off blood thinners (after spending that year hurt for 2 months before 7 and 9 game win streaks after our "system broke") and a dream season last year that saw us lose to an equally skilled but bigger and stronger Caps team that bought into Trotz's system. --- This of which stands as the most valid complaint the board has. And a 2016-2017 season that saw Bishop and Vasy give up 2 bad goals a night even when we were healthy in a year that otherwise saw Drouin/Hedman/Kucherov/Point take a minor league team to within a point of the playoffs. In 3 of those years we had a team that doesn't hold a candle to what we have now and little credit is given. In fact we hear things like "Well they had an easy schedule vs Detroit and the NYI"

You're right. As coaching as improved so too has the team. It goes both ways. But brother my point had nothing to do with Cooper's coaching and everything to do with the fact that with all the ups and downs and deep playoff runs that came with it fans were calling for Cooper's head because we didn't start Adam Wilcox..... ADAM WILCOX.... it's proof we'll complain about anything.

With that said he is very likely to stick with Domingue until Vasy is healthy enough to go again

 

[These Are The Days]

And FWIW let me go on record again saying that unless this year ends with Stamkos holding Lord Stanley over his head I will be in favor of a coaching change. The only way I give Coop a pass is if we channel our inner injury bug again and lose like 6 important players or we run into a 2011-2012 Kings redux so dominant that I would consider it one of the greatest runs to the Cup ever. Like, that team knocked off the 2 division winners, a 100 point team and then the President's Trophy winner. But if we decide to screw it up and lose in 6 games to a 2nd round divisional opponent that's not doing it's Kings redux then yeah I'm done.

I can stomach bad luck, missing the playoffs all together in a bad year, losing to a great team that was due. I can't stomach it lasting 6 years. A team this good has to win it all. Of all the things I am I'd like to at least say I'm patient.

 

[God King Fudge]

Reddit on fire with the memes this morning.

 

[DFC]

And FWIW let me go on record again saying that unless this year ends with Stamkos holding Lord Stanley over his head I will be in favor of a coaching change. The only way I give Coop a pass is if we channel our inner injury bug again and lose like 6 important players or we run into a 2011-2012 Kings redux so dominant that I would consider it one of the greatest runs to the Cup ever. Like, that team knocked off the 2 division winners, a 100 point team and then the President's Trophy winner. But if we decide to screw it up and lose in 6 games to a 2nd round divisional opponent that's not doing it's Kings redux then yeah I'm done.

I can stomach bad luck, missing the playoffs all together in a bad year, losing to a great team that was due. I can't stomach it lasting 6 years. A team this good has to win it all. Of all the things I am I'd like to at least say I'm patient.

...So it's ridiculous to call for Cooper's head over anything else, even when, in hindsight, it's been made clear that changes actually were needed (just maybe not Cooper himself), but you're saying now suddenly if Cooper doesn't do the single hardest thing in sports to do, win a cup, we should fire him.

Okay.

 

[CupsOverCash]

The thing is it's hard to win in this league but even harder to win a cup. However that is the main goal. You do so much to try to get there and if you get as far as we have so many times and fall flat you have to do what's necessary to get to the next level. Sometimes that means firing your coach.

We have gotten rid of everybody else and it wouldnt be crazy to think if we don't do it this year that Coop would be next. Especially if our offense goes cold again late in playoffs. I wouldnt be surprised if we kept him either though. Team has been for the most part consistently good through his tenure here. Know a ton of teams would kill to be in that kind of place as an organization.

For me its just I want to see the best move done for the team if that means we have to move on after another failed attempt so be it. Hope we win it with Coop though. Hes been a good coach and has been a part of some great memories since hes been here. I'll always give Boucher a little bit of that love too since that year was fun as well.

 

[These Are The Days]

...So it's ridiculous to call for Cooper's head over anything else, even when, in hindsight, it's been made clear that changes actually were needed (just maybe not Cooper himself), but you're saying now suddenly if Cooper doesn't do the single hardest thing in sports to do, win a cup, we should fire him.

Okay.

So after all that defending I did for Coop. Months and months and how many dozens of pages. Wanting a Cup after what will soon be 6 years of waiting, hundreds of games, so many triumphs and heartbreaks and now armed with what is possibly the single best Lightning team ever assembled is somehow invalidated? Wanting to fire him like 2 games into last year and 20 minutes into this year because we looked sloppy was better? Saying his system was broken while so many of the healthy forwards we did have had no business being in the top 6 --and the ones we still have today are in diminished roles? Demanding that he be fired for missing the playoffs by a point with essentially an AHL team +Point, Drouin, Kucherov Hedman after this being our injury situation 2 years ago?

NHL Injury Viz: 2016/17 team man-games lost plots

Those reasons are better? Come on... I know I don't need to point the difference to you.

You're right. We did need coaching changes. Bowness ran a system dependent on Ben Bishop and was otherwise not aggressive enough no one actually knows what the heck Steve Thomas or Brad Lauer actually did. Coop made a few chances of his own and we're better for it. But if Cooper was actually the problem then why did firing his assistants do the trick? What affected us the most with him was that Richards got the guys better at zone entry, especially on the PP. Great fix but you don't fire a coach because his team has zone entry issues. Cooper was properly relieved of his duties there

At worst we agree to disagree but hear me out. You watched Scotty coach the Wings. Why was he the GOAT? It wasn't just because he was in the right place at the right time and had arguably the greatest assortment of talent any coach has ever seen. He was the GOAT because he won with that talent and was not a bridesmaid when the Cup was being passed around. It was hell but he got there after so many tries but of course, the Wings bet on a proven winner. We have a team good enough to win all the same as he did. It's been hell but I want us to get there.

There IS no excuse to defend Cooper if we don't. I had my reasons before but those reasons are mended now. We don't struggle with anything but the injury bug anymore. This IS the team to do it. JBB and Yzerman has set us up to win. It's simple as that.

 

[Lightning1995]

NHLN radio were suggesting Eichels hit was kinda dirty.

Dirty player

Dirty team

 

[DFC]

So after all that defending I did for Coop. Months and months and how many dozens of pages. Wanting a Cup after what will soon be 6 years of waiting, hundreds of games, so many triumphs and heartbreaks and now armed with what is possibly the single best Lightning team ever assembled is somehow invalidated? Wanting to fire him like 2 games into last year and 20 minutes into this year because we looked sloppy was better? Saying his system was broken while so many of the healthy forwards we did have had no business being in the top 6 --and the ones we still have today are in diminished roles? Demanding that he be fired for missing the playoffs by a point with essentially an AHL team +Point, Drouin, Kucherov Hedman after this being our injury situation 2 years ago?

NHL Injury Viz: 2016/17 team man-games lost plots

Those reasons are better? Come on... I know I don't need to point the difference to you.

You're right. We did need coaching changes. Bowness ran a system dependent on Ben Bishop and was otherwise not aggressive enough no one actually knows what the heck Steve Thomas or Brad Lauer actually did. Coop made a few chances of his own and we're better for it. But if Cooper was actually the problem then why did firing his assistants do the trick? What affected us the most with him was that Richards got the guys better at zone entry, especially on the PP. Great fix but you don't fire a coach because his team has zone entry issues. Cooper was properly relieved of his duties there

At worst we agree to disagree but hear me out. You watched Scotty coach the Wings. Why was he the GOAT? It wasn't just because he was in the right place at the right time and had arguably the greatest assortment of talent any coach has ever seen. He was the GOAT because he won with that talent and was not a bridesmaid when the Cup was being passed around. It was hell but he got there after so many tries but of course, the Wings bet on a proven winner. We have a team good enough to win all the same as he did. It's been hell but I want us to get there.

There IS no excuse to defend Cooper if we don't. I had my reasons before but those reasons are mended now. We don't struggle with anything but the injury bug anymore. This IS the team to do it. JBB and Yzerman has set us up to win. It's simple as that.

Yes, it probably turned out that Cooper wasn't the problem. But it's impossible to know that from where we're sitting. There was obviously a coaching problem. Make that plural: there were obviously coaching problems. Our PP issues turned out to be a coaching problem. Our PK issues turned out to be a coaching problem. Our defense in general turned out, shockingly, to be a coaching problem. So you might want to step off the high horse about how wrong everybody was, except you, considering, all that time, you put these issues on the players/personnel. And it looks pretty obvious right now that that was never the issue.

Also, you can't compare post-cap teams to pre-cap teams. Yes, our team is excellent relative to today's NHL, but you still can't compare it to a team that wound up with something like 11 HOF players, in an era when 35 year-olds still produced at a solid clip.

So the excuse to defend Cooper if we don't win a cup this particular year is: Stanley Cups are really, really, really hard to win. And there's a lot more luck involved now than in the pre-cap days.

 

[DFC]

NHLN radio were suggesting Eichels hit was kinda dirty.

Dirty player

Dirty team

He's not a dirty player. It was reckless, but not malicious. He had a mini-freakout when he realized McDonagh was hurt and tried to get the referee to blow the play dead.

 

[Lightning1995]

He's not a dirty player. It was reckless, but not malicious. He had a mini-freakout when he realized McDonagh was hurt and tried to get the referee to blow the play dead.

Dirty. Retaliation is needed

 

[DFC]

Dirty. Retaliation is needed

We've made similarly dirty plays in the past couple of years. Particularly new/young players are guilty of it. There's no way Eichel intended to hurt McDonagh. It was reckless, sure, but this is not a Marchand/Wilson situation.

 

[These Are The Days]

Yes, it probably turned out that Cooper wasn't the problem. But it's impossible to know that from where we're sitting. There was obviously a coaching problem. Make that plural: there were obviously coaching problems. Our PP issues turned out to be a coaching problem. Our PK issues turned out to be a coaching problem. Our defense in general turned out, shockingly, to be a coaching problem. So you might want to step off the high horse about how wrong everybody was, except you, considering, all that time, you put these issues on the players/personnel. And it looks pretty obvious right now that that was never the issue.

Also, you can't compare post-cap teams to pre-cap teams. Yes, our team is excellent relative to today's NHL, but you still can't compare it to a team that wound up with something like 11 HOF players, in an era when 35 year-olds still produced at a solid clip.

So the excuse to defend Cooper if we don't win a cup this particular year is: Stanley Cups are really, really, really hard to win. And there's a lot more luck involved now than in the pre-cap days.

High horse? Oh brother.... I don't WANT to be right about these things. I want to see us win! There's profound difference between playing a 1-3-1 down 2 goals and Filppula staring down his man and his pass being picked off. That's how I draw my conclusions and much of it was player related vs coaching. For me I was not thrilled with our roster and saw a lot of issues -especially on offense with who we had playing top minutes

This has nothing to do with Sunny vs the world. It has to everything to do with the fact that members of our fanbase lash out at the coaching staff at the first sign of adversity whether it's validated or not because winning the Cup is really, really hard and we haven't done it yet and people are mad. The fact the Cup is hard to win is why I have still backed Coop even beyond last year's meltdown.

And I'M supposed to be the hyperbolic one here!

The answer was always in between. Our GA was average/above average for Bowness' tenure as was our PK with the exception of last year and 2013-2014 before we completely overhauled the defense. There wasnt really a problem til last year but that was due to a lack of adjustment to the loss of Bishop by Bowness. The offense has improved dramatically due to better players in it as well as a better approach by the likes of Richards and Halpern.

We agree to disagree but I feel the impact of our roster changes is understated here every time we see guys like Point and Gourde do what guys like Filppula and Callahan never could on offense. Coaching changes were needed but Cooper didn't need to lose his job the other 500 times we said.

And the latter statement about Bowman is not intended to compare pre and post cap teams. Bowman would likely thrive in today's NHL all the same because he knew what buttons to push. I don't want to see Stamkos and Kucherov no show in another game 7. Winners find a way to win and I want to see Cooper help those guys over the hump. For now Point/Kucherov seems to be a potential long term answer to that question

I don't always side with the critics but something needs to change about that.

 

[JoVel]

We've made similarly dirty plays in the past couple of years. Particularly new/young players are guilty of it. There's no way Eichel intended to hurt McDonagh. It was reckless, sure, but this is not a Marchand/Wilson situation.

Clean players make dirty plays sometimes. Kucherov got thrown out for boarding Enstrom, Joseph boarded one of the Oilers, even Nesterov was suspended for a couple of games. And I doubt many would call any of those players dirty.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Clean players make dirty plays sometimes. Kucherov got thrown out for boarding Enstrom, Joseph boarded one of the Oilers, even Nesterov was suspended for a couple of games. And I doubt many would call any of those players dirty.

NJ thinks Kuch is a goon.