GDT: 11/27/13 "Giving T.Hanks" - Rangers VS Panthers

[Gordonx11]

I recall not so long ago, someone on the Rampage thread said that Howden was extremely frustrating to watch due to his lack of hockey IQ.

And once again, Howden would just be a 4th liner here. What's the point of that?

And Howden didn't look like an NHL'er in his time here last year regardless of what you or anyone else says. He played in 18 games, did not score and was a liability defensively. It's not as if he made it obvious that he deserved to be in the NHL.

That's a little aggressive man. I though for one he played great for his first 18 games. And like I said his weakness is his finishing. CHL even mentored above that's his only weakness. Again something he needs to develop in the NHL because he will get the chances as he did last year to score in the NHL. The rest of his game is ready to go. You can't ask for everything man.

 

[Chino Oscar]

You also probably don't hear about him because Brian Campbell is the only guy on the d-core capable of providing any sort of offense.

Let's just say teams are not calling the Panthers to inquire about Campbell, one way or the other. We are stuck with him.

 

[Erick*]

He did everything but score, basically became the new Frolik with better overall ability and worse luck on the stat sheet!

The guy played like 10 minutes per game and still ended up as a -11 in 18 games. Just because you're fast and can create a scoring chance doesn't mean the player is NHL ready. If that were the case, Jack Skille would be one of the most valuable players in the NHL.

 

[Erick*]

Let's just say teams are not calling the Panthers to inquire about Campbell, one way or the other. We are stuck with him.

Well yeah, definitely. His contract is like a necessary evil though.

 

[Panthers Rock]

Agree with all of this. The Kulikov hate is ridiculous while most overlook other's mistakes. Gilbert needs to be replaced on the line-up.

Kulikov is still a young guy who's going to make mistakes and he's far from perfect but the potential is very much there. Those giving up on him or Gudbranson are giving up way too quickly.

It's one thing to trip and fall trying to defend. It's another entirely to just pass the puck behind you in your own zone to the opponent in scoring position. Kulikov didn't knowingly try to fall or anything. Gilbert, however, made the conscious decision to say, "Yeah I'll pass this back without looking in front of Thomas, what's the worst that could happen?"

There are mistakes and then there is a clear lack of defensive hockey sense. Gilbert possesses (lacks?) the latter. You want this team to look competitive, to at least give itself a shot at being decent? You get rid of guys like Gilbert and you allow guys like Olsen to play instead.

What's the point of mortgaging the future in a guy like Kulikov? Does anyone think a 30 goal scorer is going to save this team? There's too much to fix at this point, not that they shouldn't try but in season, unlikely to happen. This team either picks itself up and wills some wins or not. The point is, the team is developing at this point and not ready to compete for the playoffs. That doesn't excuse having piss poor guys like Gilbert on the team giving bad influences to young players. When I'm pining for Jovanovski to return and take his spot, you know it's bad.

 

[Erick*]

That's a little aggressive man. I though for one he played great for his first 18 games. And like I said his weakness is his finishing. CHL even mentored above that's his only weakness. Again something he needs to develop in the NHL because he will get the chances as he did last year to score in the NHL. The rest of his game is ready to go. You can't ask for everything man.

If you can't score (which he didn't at all), you have to be responsible defensively. He was a -11 in those 18 games. I'm not sure what he did exactly to make anyone feel this great about him.

 

[Gordonx11]

Why would you expect him to develop his scoring touch in the NHL moreso than in the AHL? That seems counter-intuitive to me, and goes against every NHL team's thought process of developing young players.

The rest of his game is fine. Howden needs to refine his scoring touch, which is best done against weaker goaltending and competition. If he keeps almost scoring, but not getting it done at the NHL level, that's how a young player loses confidence and gets damaged. You develop your skills better against weaker competition when you're a young player. You don't throw a freshman quality player to the wolves on a varsity team. You bring him up at the requisite pace through your program.

He gets the scoring chances in the NHL because his size, speed, etc.. is already developed. Because of this he doesn't need to be in the AHL because any time he comes up he's going to have to adjust to better goal-tending. He's ready.

 

[Chino Oscar]

Everyone's ire should be at Gilbert after this game not Kulikov but since Gilbert has no value in the trade market and we all know he sucks, people to after Kulikov who has now become the team whipping boy. Kulikov got his legs crossed up in a moment of indecision and it wasn't good but it led to a power play, on a weak hooking call on Barkov I thought, not directly to a goal like Gilbert's brain fart. We could have stopped that power play and likely still lost the game because only 30+ seconds would have been left to play but we also probably would have had a tie game before that had Gilbert not screwed up. It was Gilbert's goal that was the back breaking goal given up not Kulikov's banana peel slip that led to a penalty at yes an inopportune time but it did not lose the game because we were already behind.

And people seem to forget that the Panthers (Guds and Kuli) were breaking out of the defensive zone and Guds tries a 70-foot pass up the middle that got intercepted (of course) resulting in the Rangers rush, and Kulikov's slip that made things worse.

 

[Gordonx11]

The guy played like 10 minutes per game and still ended up as a -11 in 18 games. Just because you're fast and can create a scoring chance doesn't mean the player is NHL ready. If that were the case, Jack Skille would be one of the most valuable players in the NHL.

Well um I don't know where that came from. No one said that he was going to be a superstar.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Well if were talking about signing more better top 6 forwards when are they every going to come up? Time is running out on these guys man you have to get them up here because we have some potential gamechangers in those guys.

Just something I want to ask everyone to do if they haven't already. Go watch a Rampage game, just one. If you don't see how blessed we are to have these guys in our system then there is something wrong.

Prospects are there to serve the team, not the other way around. They are assets. They either become players for you or you can use them as trade chips. If Howden really showed in training camp that he deserved to be on the Panthers, then he'd be here right now. All of these guys in San Antonio will be Panthers if they show they deserve it. Trocheck will get a callup soon enough because of what he's done.

I've seen a lot of the players in our system, in many different leagues. I know what we have. The guys that show us that they are absolutely untouchable will be kept and brought up at the appropriate time. Don't worry about that. In the meantime, you build the best team that you can. That's what all great winning teams do. Detroit has done that, and they have been great at developing prospects for over 20 years.

 

[Chino Oscar]

Ohhhh ok so he's better off playing in the AHL against worse defenders when he has already proven he can play and play good against NHL quality D. I got you Erick I got you.

Hmm, yes. Most people like sending their young players to juniors/minors to develop, since they will get more ice time and play more important roles than on the top team. This is no secret... unless you are a highly-rated prospect that is usually the path they take...

 

[Erick*]

I think people pretending like Kulikov is just being criticized for falling tonight are being delusional. Can anyone seriously sit down and type with a straight face that Kulikov has played well? Or that he's improving? Just evaluate the guy's game. C'mon.

Let's be realistic.

He's been in the NHL for 5 years. He still hasn't sniffed being a top-pairing d-man.
5 years in the NHL and he can't hit the net.
Tonight, he looked hesitant for everything.
Horachek called him out for his inconsistency just yesterday.
Just under Horachek, Kulikov was responsible for our first two losses under him. Just last game, he took a stupid penalty that almost single-handedly changed the game completely.

HE HAS 3 POINTS! He has...what, now? 13 points in his last 60 games? Isn't he supposed to be an offensive defenseman?

Sure Gilbert ****ed it up tonight. Sure Gilbert sucks. Everyone understands that. Everyone. But let's not pretend like Kulikov hasn't done a lot of the same things either. And Kulikov does them on a rather consistent basis too. He is not playing well and, quite frankly, he looks like he needs a change of scenery.

 

[Dread Clawz]

He gets the scoring chances in the NHL because his size, speed, etc.. is already developed. Because of this he doesn't need to be in the AHL because any time he comes up he's going to have to adjust to better goal-tending. He's ready.

He needs to develop better hands before he comes up so the adjustment isn't as tough. That's what the AHL is for.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Yeah, Kulikov wasn't even the second worst Dman tonight…why single him out?

I'm not singling him out, I'm just saying he could net a top 6 forward which would improve the team not only this season but next season. And we have a lot of good young D talent in the organization now.

Glibert isn't going to net you a top 6 forward. Mottau isn't either, etc.

 

[Chino Oscar]

This team will not improve any time soon just by trading those guys.

Goc is going to be a UFA at the end of the year. Matthias might be overvalued but I'm not expecting an impact player for a guy who's playing 4th line minutes here. Kopecky has very little trade value. Flash might be the only one, but even then we're probably just talking about draft picks or prospects who aren't that great. I doubt teams are lining up to trade for an underachieving, soft winger with a 4.2 cap hit.

Agree. I guess what I am trying to say is any trade at this point is not going to magically right the ship and make us into a playoff team. For the most part, the team played good tonight, and while our lack of scoring and brain farts on defense are frustrating, I find it counterproductive at this point to trade young assets for a player that will not be the 1st line scoring winger we want, will only be a band-aid at this point and will not make us qualify for the playoffs. Trade those players that are not part of the future (of those players I mentioned, maybe keep Goc, as he is still valuable) and part ways with those that don't figure in the future. And be active as hell in the off-season.

Honestly, I am more frustrated with Huberdeau than Kulikov at this point. Too many fancy plays resulting in turnovers, weak on the puck, and slow on the skates.

 

[jrockett1096]

I totally agree. Kulikov is expected to perform better than Gilbert. Gilbert was signed on a freaking PTO, he is expected to have faults.

Kulikov is now in his 5th NHL season and actually looks a lot worse than he did a couple of years ago. It's still early enough in his career that NHL teams think they can turn him into something solid. If that's the case, then fine, let him turn into a solid top-4 d-man, but it's just not going to happen in a Panthers uniform.

Kulikov is the only valuable trade asset we have other than maybe Flash and to an extent, Matthias. I would love to see Kulikov traded for a top-6 forward (again, not expecting a 50-goal man, but if someone can contribute an extra 25-30 goals to this team it'll be a big difference), and seeing Flash moved for a top-4 d-man.

Flash could easily land us a solid defenseman that won't cause so many turn overs, and will allow us to move Gilbert to bottom pairing and have him used mainly on the powerplay.

Tallon needs to get his ass in gear.

Some of guys are dreaming and I mean really smoking on some pipe if you believe that Kulikov can be traded for a top 6 forward who can score 30 goals. Flash had the value maybe before this season to get a top 4 d-man but this year he is just about invisible in most games and its a stretch a team gives up a dependable top 4 defenseman for a player who looks invisible in most games. GM's aren't stupid.

Teams are going to trade us prospects and draft picks for our players and I find it extremely unlikely that a team, especially a playoff team, gives up a top 6 forward on there team or a top 4 defenseman to us for our mediocre forwards or Dmen. The only player I think who can actually get a real NHL defenseman or forward would be Tim Thomas + (a player from our team who plays the same position that the player coming back to us plays) because he legitimately can win a Stanley cup on the right team, right now.

Our players are just not that good and on a playoff team all of our forwards just about would be on a 3rd line and our defenseman would all be 3rd pairings as well. Free agency is what's going to solve most of our problems and praying the prospects that Tallon gets back pan out like Olsen might and have a great draft with perhaps a number 1 overall pick or something. Viola's commitment to spend will be the key though.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Agree. I guess what I am trying to say is any trade at this point is not going to magically right the ship and make us into a playoff team. For the most part, the team played good tonight, and while our lack of scoring and brain farts on defense are frustrating, I find it counterproductive at this point to trade young assets for a player that will not be the 1st line scoring winger we want, will only be a band-aid at this point and will not make us qualify for the playoffs. Trade those players that are not part of the future (of those players I mentioned, maybe keep Goc, as he is still valuable) and part ways with those that don't figure in the future. And be active as hell in the off-season.

Honestly, I am more frustrated with Huberdeau than Kulikov at this point. Too many fancy plays resulting in turnovers, weak on the puck, and slow on the skates.

A)Why does it have to be a Band-Aid? The player we acquire could fit into our long term solution.

B)Even if we don't make the playoffs, it would be nice to see some progression this season. If we finish with a top 3 pick again, it will be harder to attract the top free agents. Make the team as desirable a destination as you can. Also, creating an exciting environment is good for Bjugstad, Barkov, Huby, Gudbranson, etc.

C)If we can, we should get a head start on free agency. If we don't sign the top 4-5 UFA forwards and top 4-5 UFA d-men, then what is the plan? I think Tallon will try to make the team the best it can be for 2014-15. Not only is it in the best interests of the team, it's in the best interests of his own job as well.

 

[jrockett1096]

And people seem to forget that the Panthers (Guds and Kuli) were breaking out of the defensive zone and Guds tries a 70-foot pass up the middle that got intercepted (of course) resulting in the Rangers rush, and Kulikov's slip that made things worse.

Exactly. Good eye. It was exactly what transpired. Kulikov was going forward on a breakout and Guds had the puck. Like lightning the play was coming back at Kulikov because Guds long pass attempt got cut off and the sudden turnover got Kulikov all crossed up because it happened very fast and Kulikov was going forward on the break out. It was unfortunate but it was actually a turnover from Guds that made that slip happen. Oh well.

 

[Erick*]

Agree. I guess what I am trying to say is any trade at this point is not going to magically right the ship and make us into a playoff team.

I don't think that people want to trade Kulikov for a quick fix. The point would be to get a young forward in return that could be a part of our core both short-term and long-term.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Some of guys are dreaming and I mean really smoking on some pipe if you believe that Kulikov can be traded for a top 6 forward who can score 30 goals. Flash had the value maybe before this season to get a top 4 d-man but this year he is just about invisible in most games and its a stretch a team gives up a dependable top 4 defenseman for a player who looks invisible in most games. GM's aren't stupid.

Teams are going to trade us prospects and draft picks for our players and I find it extremely unlikely that a team, especially a playoff team, gives up a top 6 forward on there team or a top 4 defenseman to us for our mediocre forwards or Dmen. The only player I think who can actually get a real NHL defenseman or forward would be Tim Thomas + (a player from our team who plays the same position that the player coming back to us plays) because he legitimately can win a Stanley cup on the right team, right now.

Our players are just not that good and on a playoff team all of our forwards just about would be on a 3rd line and our defenseman would all be 3rd pairings as well. Free agency is what's going to solve most of our problems and praying the prospects that Tallon gets back pan out like Olsen might and have a great draft with perhaps a number 1 overall pick or something. Viola's commitment to spend will be the key though.

The other guys would probably only net futures, but Kulikov can bring back a top 6 forward. He's 22 and a change of scenery trade is not a novel idea in the NHL. It's happened plenty of times before. We've seen a lot of young forward for young d-men trades where those teams felt the players needed a change of scenery and thought they were getting the better end of the deal. The best recent example is how Pittsburgh won big getting Neal for Goligoski. Every team covets young, smooth skating puck moving d-men. Kulikov is all of those things plus he has size and some grit. A team with a surplus of forwards that desires him would be a good trading partner. It doesn't have to be a top 10 team that would only give up futures. Mediocre teams trade with eachother all the time too.

 

[Ghoste]

Kulikov is still a young guy who's going to make mistakes and he's far from perfect but the potential is very much there. Those giving up on him or Gudbranson are giving up way too quickly.

It's one thing to trip and fall trying to defend. It's another entirely to just pass the puck behind you in your own zone to the opponent in scoring position. Kulikov didn't knowingly try to fall or anything. Gilbert, however, made the conscious decision to say, "Yeah I'll pass this back without looking in front of Thomas, what's the worst that could happen?"

There are mistakes and then there is a clear lack of defensive hockey sense. Gilbert possesses (lacks?) the latter. You want this team to look competitive, to at least give itself a shot at being decent? You get rid of guys like Gilbert and you allow guys like Olsen to play instead.

What's the point of mortgaging the future in a guy like Kulikov? Does anyone think a 30 goal scorer is going to save this team? There's too much to fix at this point, not that they shouldn't try but in season, unlikely to happen. This team either picks itself up and wills some wins or not. The point is, the team is developing at this point and not ready to compete for the playoffs. That doesn't excuse having piss poor guys like Gilbert on the team giving bad influences to young players. When I'm pining for Jovanovski to return and take his spot, you know it's bad.

I'd hope Tallon personally drives Kuli to the airport if he were offered a 30 goal scorer for him.

I'm totally in the 'get more offense' camp. Look at teams like Tampa & Colorado and how they were supposed to be getting clowned because of their defense. Remember, everyone was shocked when Sakic said he was going to pass on Jones for more offensive firepower in Mac. But they are doing just fine.

We see that Thomas can keep us in it, even despite our average (at best) defense. If we could just score and give ourselves a lead instead of backing ourselves into a corner and having to score 3 goals in the 3rd period to win games. It's easy to see that our chances of winning would increase.

-ghoste

 

[Chino Oscar]

A)Why does it have to be a Band-Aid? The player we acquire could fit into our long term solution.

B)Even if we don't make the playoffs, it would be nice to see some progression this season. If we finish with a top 3 pick again, it will be harder to attract the top free agents. Make the team as desirable a destination as you can. Also, creating an exciting environment is good for Bjugstad, Barkov, Huby, Gudbranson, etc.

C)If we can, we should get a head start on free agency. If we don't sign the top 4-5 UFA forwards and top 4-5 UFA d-men, then what is the plan? I think Tallon will try to make the team the best it can be for 2014-15. Not only is it in the best interests of the team, it's in the best interests of his own job as well.

A)Band-aid because we are not going to get the 1st line scoring talent we desperately need or top pairing defenseman, unless we are seriously overpaying at this point. I think Tallon has mentioned that he is not willing to mortgage the future for a quick fix. And I agree with that. Smaller trades that get you something similar to what we did for Versteeg - Olsen/Hayes I would not mind if we can get players that figure into your future.

B) I think we have seen progression already. But, do you really want to unload young players to move up 3-5 spots in the standings and not make the playoffs? I guess we will disagree on that point.

C) I think we can all agree that we are not going to sign the top 4-5 UFA forwards/d-men. The defense has looked better, but it is obvious we need at least 1 top pairing defenseman. Similar with the forwards, we need at least 1 top scoring winger, preferably a 2nd line scoring winger as well. I think those 3 signings (whoever they are) would make a significant improvement on this team. Similar to when we signed Campbell, get one big name free agent at the start of offseason in the hopes it makes it more attractive for other to join.

 

[mbitonti]

I don't think that people want to trade Kulikov for a quick fix. The point would be to get a young forward in return that could be a part of our core both short-term and long-term.

Yeah I don't think anybody with half a brain wants a quick fix either. Nothing can fix this team in the short term. I have defended Kuli all season and at first thought a trade was irrational until the past few games and I just can't defend him anymore. I still think he will be a great defenseman in the long run, but I simply don't think he can develop with our team. We have a horrible defensive system and no real mentors for him. I may be the optimist, but I'm hoping other teams see it this way and notice his potential enough to give us a top 6 forward for him. However, I'd be on board with keeping him regardless if I didn't think he'll be an ass about his next contract (ie requesting more money than he deserves).

 

[jrockett1096]

The other guys would probably only net futures, but Kulikov can bring back a top 6 forward. He's 22 and a change of scenery trade is not a novel idea in the NHL. It's happened plenty of times before. We've seen a lot of young forward for young d-men trades where those teams felt the players needed a change of scenery and thought they were getting the better end of the deal. The best recent example is how Pittsburgh won big getting Neal for Goligoski. Every team covets young, smooth skating puck moving d-men. Kulikov is all of those things plus he has size and some grit. A team with a surplus of forwards that desires him would be a good trading partner. It doesn't have to be a top 10 team that would only give up futures. Mediocre teams trade with eachother all the time too.

I agree with your assessment of Kulikov and I would agree on the outside looking in one would say Kulikov needs a change of scenery and even perhaps gm and coach would think they can turn him around but Kulikov has played a lot of games already in his young age and though he has some tools I find it extremely and highly unlikely that a playoff team or a mediocre team who likely is mediocre because they lack top 6 forwards (goal scoring) will trade for a project like Kulikov, who has played a ton of games who needs to be turned around, for a guy who scored now 30 goals for there team rignt now. It's just not too likely. If I'm another GM looking at our team, I give up a draft pick for Kulikov and not a core player.

I root for the front of the jersey by the way and not the name on the back so I have no allegiance for anyone here. I want the best players who are going to help us win so I have no favorites here.

 

[ShootIt]

I don't think that people want to trade Kulikov for a quick fix. The point would be to get a young forward in return that could be a part of our core both short-term and long-term.

This.

I criticize Kulikov because I like(d) him ever since he was drafted. We saw What his presence was to the team in 2011 was after he got injured, the defense missed him. However, I don't think he is near that level now.
He seems to be indecisive with the puck, and it happens at the worst moments. Not to mention his slap shot should be banned in all 50 states
Like others have said, he is a player that probably has the most value, that Tallon would be willing to trade. If he can bring back a soon to be nhler that projects to be a scoring winger ans has a track record of scoring goals at every previous level then I would do that trade.