GDT: 11/15 7pm Sharks @ Oilers -- Hoping to keep the shutout streak going

[Alwalys]

Loser hockey is laying down and not battling back from 3-0.

That's lose-your-job hockey. When you spot another team 3 goals, especially a defensively sound one, getting some offense thereafter is no feat.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Say to me what you want, but that was one of the best games i have seen Edmonton play in awhile, not just because they scored, but for some parts of the second and third period, they actually looked like they wanted the win.

 

[Coily]

Say to me what you want, but that was one of the best games i have seen Edmonton play in awhile, not just because they scored, but for some parts of the second and third period, they actually looked like they wanted the win.

But, but. Loser hockey.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I just find it hard to believe that McLellan would scratch Havlat for that reason. I mean, Marleau was absolutely terrible some games and he never got scratched.
I ask again (not in a condescending way since I actually didn't listen to the interviews), did McLellan ever elaborate why he scratched Havlat? Could it be that he's not ready for back-to-backs?

Well no one knew he was scratched until the pregame. TMac had a media scrum earlier today and said its time to see results and his preseason is over..referring to the previous 7 games. A reporter asked about the Vacouver game in which he played 11:47 and posted nothing and TMac said "I don't know. You might want to pull him out here and talk to him about it"

 

[Mafoofoo]

Has Tmac ever healthy scratched a player "as good" as Havlat?

 

[SHAR KS]

I was wondering why they gave Thornton an assist on Pavs goal because it looked like Joe didn't touch the puck, but it looks like they changed it now and Couture gets the 2nd assist.

 

[WTFetus]

Has Tmac ever healthy scratched a player "as good" as Havlat?

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Has Tmac ever healthy scratched a player "as good" as Havlat?

Nope. Both Stuart and Havlat have been scratched due to performance this year.

 

[SactoShark]

Has Tmac ever healthy scratched a player "as good" as Havlat?

That's a pretty good point.

And Havlat has had the same issues before coming to SJ. Granted the situation was drastically different in Minnesota, but Havlat was infrequently scratched for lack of effort / production.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If they call what Havlat was going through his preseason (which is ludicrous) then they should've put him on LTIR and gave him a conditioning stint. 7 games after returning from pelvic reconstruction where he hadn't played a game in six months or really do anything remotely similar to game-level hockey and then dogging him for performance is asinine to me especially when they've moved him up and down the entire time. Whatever the hell happened to "it's a process"? I would've bought into not being able or not wanting him to do back-to-back games so early in his return but the comments he's made make that tough to buy into. I'd trade him just because it seems like it's developing into an unhealthy relationship between the player and coach but they'll be lucky to get anything beyond another contract of similar bulk in return.

 

[SJeasy]

I just find it hard to believe that McLellan would scratch Havlat for that reason. I mean, Marleau was absolutely terrible some games and he never got scratched.
I ask again (not in a condescending way since I actually didn't listen to the interviews), did McLellan ever elaborate why he scratched Havlat? Could it be that he's not ready for back-to-backs?

TM was quoted by Kurz in response to Kurz questioning the 0 stat line for Havlat. TM stated that it was noticeable in the context of Nieto and Havlat having to produce. He noted that Nieto is running into the intensity of games ramping up, the implication being that he would give Nieto more rope. He noted that Havlat has had 7 games to get the pre-season up-to-speed thing out of the way.

If they call what Havlat was going through his preseason (which is ludicrous) then they should've put him on LTIR and gave him a conditioning stint. 7 games after returning from pelvic reconstruction where he hadn't played a game in six months or really do anything remotely similar to game-level hockey and then dogging him for performance is asinine to me especially when they've moved him up and down the entire time. Whatever the hell happened to "it's a process"? I would've bought into not being able or not wanting him to do back-to-back games so early in his return but the comments he's made make that tough to buy into. I'd trade him just because it seems like it's developing into an unhealthy relationship between the player and coach but they'll be lucky to get anything beyond another contract of similar bulk in return.

I agree. IMO, TM has the team doing specific outlet duties. I have seen both players being less than good at being in position and executing. Sheppard has actually been good and is getting more time as has McCarthy. Brown is forget it. Kennedy is spotty. The TOI is correlating closely with what I observe in terms of being ready for outlets. What concerns me is that the system doesn't necessarily match what should be done against specific opponents.

It was odd seeing Edmonton (I haven't see them at all lately) and it looked like they were playing Trotz's old system which is very intense for transitioning neutral zone turnovers and trapping to increase the number thereof. They don't have the blueline to play that system well.

 

[OrrNumber4]

If they call what Havlat was going through his preseason (which is ludicrous) then they should've put him on LTIR and gave him a conditioning stint. 7 games after returning from pelvic reconstruction where he hadn't played a game in six months or really do anything remotely similar to game-level hockey and then dogging him for performance is asinine to me especially when they've moved him up and down the entire time. Whatever the hell happened to "it's a process"? I would've bought into not being able or not wanting him to do back-to-back games so early in his return but the comments he's made make that tough to buy into. I'd trade him just because it seems like it's developing into an unhealthy relationship between the player and coach but they'll be lucky to get anything beyond another contract of similar bulk in return.

To play Devil's advocate, then, should Tmac continue to promote a non-producing Havlat over players who actually are producing? How many games with Havlat take to recover? How many wins will he cost the team in that time?

I don't want this to be Douglas Murray and Colin White part 3. "Wait, wait, he is going to get better. He's always been better. Just wait". No, none of that. I don't think the Sharks are near that stage yet, but it is worth considering.

 

[do0glas]

I'd say havlat got noticeably less effective after the buffalo game. It was regression to the point that he had the nothing game.

Havlat is not a core piece of this team, he's a fill in just like Kennedy wingels Torres and Sheppard. So he's likely to get scratched now and then.

If havlat isn't physically capable of this system, he needs to go. I doubt a condition stint would've helped much as he'd still have no chemistry with the style we are going for.

I doubt that was his last game in teal, so let's see how he responds to a healthy scratch.

 

[Mafoofoo]

Well I said as good not vastly superior in every single hockey related area.

 

[GodHatesTheSharks]

This hasn't been talked much, but ever since Larry Robinson came to San Jose, Justin Braun has improved his game A LOT. He's very solid.

He was one of the best players on the ice imo.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

To play Devil's advocate, then, should Tmac continue to promote a non-producing Havlat over players who actually are producing? How many games with Havlat take to recover? How many wins will he cost the team in that time?

I don't want this to be Douglas Murray and Colin White part 3. "Wait, wait, he is going to get better. He's always been better. Just wait". No, none of that. I don't think the Sharks are near that stage yet, but it is worth considering.

He shouldn't promote Havlat over those that are producing. However, not everyone in the lineup is producing and I don't feel 7 games is enough to say now it's all about producing. Besides that, how many games did Havlat actually cost the team in terms of wins?

The difference between Murray/White and Havlat is that Murray/White were never true impact players like Havlat is when he is right and I don't think it only takes two weeks or less than that for a player to come back from that type of injury and process and be productive and find chemistry with players.

 

[do0glas]

He shouldn't promote Havlat over those that are producing. However, not everyone in the lineup is producing and I don't feel 7 games is enough to say now it's all about producing. Besides that, how many games did Havlat actually cost the team in terms of wins?

The difference between Murray/White and Havlat is that Murray/White were never true impact players like Havlat is when he is right and I don't think it only takes two weeks or less than that for a player to come back from that type of injury and process and be productive and find chemistry with players.

To be fair, it's completely possible he was scratched just to rest up.

The fact that his comment about producing coincided with his ghost game and a scratch probably shouldn't be taken so literal.

"His preseason is over" *healthy scratch* doesn't jive.

It seemed more like he was talking about his future games. But I could be wrong.

 

[RainbowDash]

This hasn't been talked much, but ever since Larry Robinson came to San Jose, Justin Braun has improved his game A LOT. He's very solid.

He was one of the best players on the ice imo.

Let's not praise him too much. Braun did play well tonight, but thats against a crap edmonton team who have young talented players that aren't elite players at this point.

Braun could have benefited from having a vet like Rob Blake around, too.

 

[Mafoofoo]

Let's not praise him too much. Braun did play well tonight, but thats against a crap edmonton team who have young talented players that aren't elite players at this point.

Braun could have benefited from having a vet like Rob Blake around, too.

Brauns been playing great for awhile now. Not just tonight.

 

[RainbowDash]

He shouldn't promote Havlat over those that are producing. However, not everyone in the lineup is producing and I don't feel 7 games is enough to say now it's all about producing. Besides that, how many games did Havlat actually cost the team in terms of wins?

The difference between Murray/White and Havlat is that Murray/White were never true impact players like Havlat is when he is right and I don't think it only takes two weeks or less than that for a player to come back from that type of injury and process and be productive and find chemistry with players.

I would certainly say that Havlat has at least stifled the 2nd line that has led to at least a couple shootout losses. Buffalo for one. The other probably PHX.

 

[KirbyDots]

Brauns been playing great for awhile now. Not just tonight.

This, he's taken his game to the next level. Not just being paired with Vlasic who has also taken his game to a higher level this year. It's not a coincidence that Braun leads the team in +/-.

 

[OrrNumber4]

He shouldn't promote Havlat over those that are producing. However, not everyone in the lineup is producing and I don't feel 7 games is enough to say now it's all about producing. Besides that, how many games did Havlat actually cost the team in terms of wins?

The difference between Murray/White and Havlat is that Murray/White were never true impact players like Havlat is when he is right and I don't think it only takes two weeks or less than that for a player to come back from that type of injury and process and be productive and find chemistry with players.

I agree with your general conclusion. However, in terms of their play, see it like this:

Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Hertl, Wingels, Kennedy, are playing well. On top of that, you have Nieto, who is going through a bit of a rough patch, and Sheppard, who's put together a bunch of consistent games. So, the way I see it, 8 out of the top 9 forward spots are already occupied by someone who deserves it. Then, you have to choose between Nieto and Havlat. Not only is Nieto's development an issue, but Nieto doesn't have nearly the amount of question marks Havlat has...I think TMac's assessment of why Nieto is struggling is sufficient.

So, you then have to deploy Havlat on the fourth line. He might as well bench him at that point.

As I said, I do think it will take more time for Havlat to fully recover and find some chemistry with the team. But for his own sake, he needs to find it fast. There is only so much rope that he can be given; keep in mind that he wasn't exactly super-productive through ~40 games last season.

Eventually, Burns and Torres should be healthy. Things are going to get crowded fast, and Tmac is likely going to have to address the issue of which three play amongst Nieto, Hertl, Kennedy, Wingels, and now Havlat. Day-by-day, Hertl and Wingels are starting to pull away. Havlat is going to find himself competing with a very tough group.

 

[hockfan1991]

Hate that highlight of selanne. I was at the tank that day when they were showing it on jumbo tron. Unbelievable. We lose a lot of game 7s in second round toronto Colorado la. We have had chances painfull

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I would certainly say that Havlat has at least stifled the 2nd line that has led to at least a couple shootout losses. Buffalo for one. The other probably PHX.

Buffalo? You mean the game that he actually produced points and was a big reason why they even got a point when everyone sucked that night? The only thing that has stifled what is the 1st line is Marleau and Couture when they have their off nights.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I would certainly say that Havlat has at least stifled the 2nd line that has led to at least a couple shootout losses. Buffalo for one. The other probably PHX.

To the Havlat-likers, I will mention that Havlat has made some nice plays and passes. You can figure that as the chemistry builds and Havlat gets back in shape, those plays will connect with a higher frequency. As always, Havlat heads to the blue paint.

To the Havlat-detractors, I will mention that Havlat is just terrible at holding on to the puck, especially along the boards. A lot fewer dangles, and a lot less board-work. Of course, he could get better, but I am not even seeing something to build on. Scarily, that is the kind of thing that his injury would affect (his balance and poise).