GDT: 10/25/2019 Game 11: Buffalo Sabres @ Detroit Red Wings (7:30pm EST

[Go Wings]

You’re suggesting I have said things that I haven’t in order to validate yourself.

It’s quite simple. Everyone is treating Yzerman with unquestioned support. “Trust the Yzerplan.” There a moves that have been made, or potential ones discussed where people, probably you included, have said “I don’t know about this one, but I trust Yzerman.” A lot of blind faith being thrown around. Yzerman HAD an opportunity to get a Kevin Hayes or a Jacob Trouba if he wanted to chase immediate results this year...but he didn’t. I’m glad he didn’t, because it’s throwing lipstick on a pig and this team needs more than one offseason yet. But whether you agree with him, or you sit there with blind faith and refuse to question him, you are supporting the product that we put on the ice. You are supporting being the worst team in hockey, and right now I don’t think there’s a debate to be had about that.

Do you think anyone is going lose sleep if Blashill gets fired? Hell no. He’s not that important in the grand scheme of things. But it’s clearly the minority now, there are people like me out there who aren’t jonesing for a hot take firing.

We can have a difference of opinion, just keep your overall toxicity somewhere else. Make a thread dedicated to firing Blashill, just stop making every game day thread your personal soapbox to cuss out and insult Blashill over reasons that are rooted in the fact that the organization gave us the worst team in hockey, and most people probably asked for it.

I don't have blind faith at all. With all the good defensmen that moved in the offseason Yzerman should have acquired at least one probably more. He didn't he got a bottom pairing guy in Nemeth.
I am not saying nor have I ever said this team on the ice is good. But what I have said and will continue to say is that Blashill is not doing a good job and needs to go. We have lost 7 straight including getting pounded by Ottawa. Are you saying that Ottawa has more talent then Detroit (they don't)?
Well you are the guy that is saying we should take a winger if we get the top pick, like continuing to draft wingers with our tops picks has served us well so far
Every game day thread? I have done it twice this year you really are an accountant aren't you.

 

[Go Wings]

Watch 10 minutes of his introductory press conference in Edmonton and you will figure out it wasn't really Holland that has extended Blashill to be the coach currently of this team... One of the reasons he went with Tippett. I get the narrative though and I think Stevie was right to have Holland pull the trigger it has kept people that are really negative about Blashill with that buffer, so I get doing it as an organization. But despite the public narrative and I understand why they do that, but Yzerman hasn't been making decisions since just April, I really am surprised how many people believe that hook line and sinker. You think he wasn't consulted on major decisions since basically last August/September? Yeah not what I have heard at all.

Blashill should have been fired 2 seasons ago when Barry Trotz was available. That is on Holland not Yzerman.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

God, look at the roster people. This is the second worst roster in the entire league, comfortably. No coach would be able to do anything substantial with this collective group. The fact that we are still dwelling on Blashill is absolutely hilarious. I’m not even a Blashill apologist, it’s just, guys, we are bad. We are bottoming out. If you haven’t accepted that yet, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I don't have blind faith at all. With all the good defensmen that moved in the offseason Yzerman should have acquired at least one probably more. He didn't he got a bottom pairing guy in Nemeth.
I am not saying nor have I ever said this team on the ice is good. But what I have said and will continue to say is that Blashill is not doing a good job and needs to go. We have lost 7 straight including getting pounded by Ottawa. Are you saying that Ottawa has more talent then Detroit (they don't)?
Well you are the guy that is saying we should take a winger if we get the top pick, like continuing to draft wingers with our tops picks has served us well so far
Every game day thread? I have done it twice this year you really are an accountant aren't you.

Haven’t said a single word about you in your personal life and you decide the proper decorum is to passively bait and insult people? You’re a real cool guy.

 

[Winger98]

What other North American professional sports organization has kept a losing coach for 5 years? This is unprecedented. We are seeing history here.

we also haven't seen teams willfully tank themselves to crap for years on end with the hope of striking luck on draft lottos. I think how organizations view coaches, especially when expectations are set during these rebuild eras, a bit differently than in the past. I touched on it in another post, but I doubt the wings are judging Blashill strictly, or even largely, on his win/loss record. If they like how kids have progressed under him, if they think he has "kept the room" and the team hasn't quit on him, etc., I think those are bigger factors right now.

This isn't to say Blashill won't be canned at some point, I just think it'll take more than just losing.

 

[Winger98]

Blashill should have been fired 2 seasons ago when Barry Trotz was available. That is on Holland not Yzerman.

Trotz would have had to have wanted to come. We wanted Stamkos, and reports were he didn't even return the Wings' call.

 

[Shaman464]

What other North American professional sports organization has kept a losing coach for 5 years? This is unprecedented. We are seeing history here.

Those 5 years were after he was handed a declining roster that was poorly bandage prior and during the beginning of his tenure to keep a streak alive. Scotty Bowman couldn't make this team a bubble team.

 

[LeftWingLocked]

Stamkos and Babcock didn't want any part of Holland and his horrible decision making. Worst GM of our time.

 

[Ezekial]

Stamkos and Babcock didn't want any part of Holland and his horrible decision making. Worst GM of our time.

Yea, and he'll be in the HHOF one day.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Stamkos and Babcock didn't want any part of Holland and his horrible decision making. Worst GM of our time.

This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen on this website... Congrats, Holland is a sure fire HHOF builder.

 

[Ezekial]

This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen on this website... Congrats, Holland is a sure fire HHOF builder.

Someone was talking about how terrible Ken Holland's pro scouting is in the GDT, meanwhile James Neal has 9 goals in 11 games.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Someone was talking about how terrible Ken Holland's pro scouting is in the GDT, meanwhile James Neal has 9 goals in 11 games.

The league is designed to do what is happening to us, especially when the Ilitch family chased the playoff record. It was unavoidable really, it will happen. It got Lou and Lombardi as well as the great Bill Torrey. It happens, I understand not liking it and I wish it had ended a little better. He did commit to the rebuild at least after the playoff miss, we shall see. Guy was a fantastic general manager though for a long time, we got caught by the system, it was unlikely to accomplish three straight championship cores. I wish he had, we will see what Stevie does with what he left behind.

I am excited for the future, hopefully we get some lottery luck this year.

 

[raymond23]

Someone was talking about how terrible Ken Holland's pro scouting is in the GDT, meanwhile James Neal has 9 goals in 11 games.

Kenny and Co's pro scouting was absolutely terrible for a long time now. James Neal getting carried by the best duo on the planet isn't going to change that. I am not hating on Kenny's achievements whatsoever tho… he is no doubt a legendary GM but lost his touch with this team while ago.

 

[Winger98]

Kenny and Co's pro scouting was absolutely terrible for a long time now. James Neal getting carried by the best duo on the planet isn't going to change that. I am not hating on Kenny's achievements whatsoever tho… he is no doubt a legendary GM but lost his touch with this team while ago.

Pro scouting has always been hit or miss. I remember trading for Dmitri Mironov and Bill Ranford and that was back when Bowman was still behind our bench and not in the Hawks' owner box. I haven't looked into it, but I'd be curious how the sort of signings Detroit has been relegated to (Weiss, Nielsen, Nemeth level) usually pan out on average for teams, and how that would be graded. It seems like those signings everywhere have a tendency of not living up to expectations.

 

[Dotter]

comparing holland's and yzerman's trade record would need to happen over the respective years with their respective team. Holland rarely made a trade unless it was trading a decently high draft pick for a garbage rental.

That's a lot of years to cover to do a what if. I think organizational focus is the thing you need to most consider. It's not even arguable that the organizational focus was make the playoffs every last time you can. I am not even sure the rebuild was planned, it got to a point where any management of the team would look like a rebuild because you backed your self as far into a corner that the only moves left look like rebuild moves.

If the organizational focus for the last 6, 7, 8 years was actually sacrificing the streak to have another cup window in the future that would have included trading players when they still had value like not letting Filp go to free agency, not signing Alfredson and making the playoffs for no reason and picking higher in the draft where the higher talent is, not trading your second and Jarnkrok for 16 games of legwand giving you another shot in the second round for long shot talent and still having Jarnkrok in our bottom 6, not signing Abdelkater to 7 years and maybe even trading him when his stats still might have suckered a team into giving up a prospect or high pick, not trading away a draft pick to get rid of Daytsuk's contract when really what was the point of getting rid of it, it was only 1 year remaining. I am not going to go down the rabbit hole, just a few examples. The moves made over the years if the wings had had a competent GM that was making moves for the future would be too many to count honestly.

What you are seeing right now are the consequences of Abby Helm Dekyser, Ericson contracts, and not focusing on bringing in young talent but rather cheap veteran talent to artificially give your talent level a shot in the arm to be a wild card instead of giving yourself a shot at the top 5 talent needed to actually have a future. I am just glad we have a GM that understands that now and that is why you are watching a dumpster fire. But don't blame blash or Yzerman, you gotta go back to how we got here.

You're not magically bringing in young talent. This is the consequence of cap era, a rebuilding team and a draft lottery (unlucky). Nothing else.

The players you mentioned were nothing more than place-holders as they take 5+ years to rebuild. If Yzerman has 3+ years of unlucky draft lotteries, people will be placing all blame on him and will be calling for his head. Never fails, not just with DRWs fans... but all team fans. Human nature I guess. Misguided anger is misguided anger.

 

[MBH]

Those 5 years were after he was handed a declining roster that was poorly bandage prior and during the beginning of his tenure to keep a streak alive. Scotty Bowman couldn't make this team a bubble team.

yeah. but answer the question.
Bad roster or not.
There aren't a lot of coaches who get to suck as long as Blashill has.
Tipppet. Trotz in Nashville.

A lot of NHL teams have had shitty rosters. They still make coaching changes.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

At some point you have to be able to develop a scheme that can be competitive more than the Wings are showing. Right now, the team has no offense and even with a crappy roster you should still be able to string more than a slightly above 1 GPG average over 6 or so games. Even the senators haven't been this bad this season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Mantha will want a long-term deal for his last big contract. He'll probably want a 5-7 year deal. It will take him through his prime and probably include 2-3 years where his play starts to trail off. Are you really going to pretend he hasn't been streaky his entire career as a hockey player? So in 4 or 5 years when we are good again you have an aging player with longer slumps who is being paid like a 35 goal scorer. We've seen it happen across the league, let someone else swallow that contract.

I heard the same defenses of so many bad contracts Holland signed rather than trade those guys at their prime. Your defense back then was that those guys were essential for keeping the playoff streak alive. How'd that work out?

I don't understand your math.

- Mantha is streaky : but will still get a massive cap-issue creating contract?
- He's 25, but at age 30-32 he will have had 2-3 years of declining play? So you basically think his prime is.. 25-27?
- We have almost no salary locked up for 4-5 years from now, but signing one player creates cap issues?
- You make up something about past signings being essential for a playoff streak? What are you even talking about? At what point in the past 5 (or however long you want) years did we have a young player like Mantha? Who are you even comparing to?
- Even if Mantha was to decline during his next contract, we're going to have cheap RFA and ELC players being paid like 10 goal scorers and (if we're a good team like you say we will be) producing like a lot more, so it will even out

 

[Run the Jewels]

I don't understand your math.

- Mantha is streaky : but will still get a massive cap-issue creating contract?
- He's 25, but at age 30-32 he will have had 2-3 years of declining play? So you basically think his prime is.. 25-27?
- We have almost no salary locked up for 4-5 years from now, but signing one player creates cap issues?
- You make up something about past signings being essential for a playoff streak? What are you even talking about? At what point in the past 5 (or however long you want) years did we have a young player like Mantha? Who are you even comparing to?
- Even if Mantha was to decline during his next contract, we're going to have cheap RFA and ELC players being paid like 10 goal scorers and (if we're a good team like you say we will be) producing like a lot more, so it will even out

Detroit will not be competing for Cups in the next three years which are likely to be the last three years of Mantha's prime. If you don't understand the value of trading him for a player who will be in his prime when we are ready to compete I am not sure what to tell you. I do know you supported pretty much every move Holland made that resulted in us becoming one of the 2-3 worst teams in the league. I understand your basic argument to be "so what if we overpay for Mantha?" Yzerman had a few bad contracts in Tampa but he didn't have a roster littered with them like Holland did. Knowing what we know about Mantha that is likely to be a bad contract. I understand you will look at a seven game sample and say he's a different player and that you like to assume the best about all of our players and prospects which is fine; that seldom meshes with reality but whatever.

I view Mantha as our second best trade piece and as such I view him as a guy who should be traded. You want to re-sign him at all costs which is something I'd expect from Ken Holland. We'll see what happens. I am not completely 100% opposed to signing him to a new deal, I simply view it as being antithetical to the direction where we are headed.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Detroit will not be competing for Cups in the next three years which are likely to be the last three years of Mantha's prime. If you don't understand the value of trading him for a player who will be in his prime when we are ready to compete I am not sure what to tell you. I do know you supported pretty much every move Holland made that resulted in us becoming one of the 2-3 worst teams in the league. I understand your basic argument to be "so what if we overpay for Mantha?" Yzerman had a few bad contracts in Tampa but he didn't have a roster littered with them like Holland did. Knowing what we know about Mantha that is likely to be a bad contract. I understand you will look at a seven game sample and say he's a different player and that you like to assume the best about all of our players and prospects which is fine; that seldom meshes with reality but whatever.

I view Mantha as our second best trade piece and as such I view him as a guy who should be traded. You want to re-sign him at all costs which is something I'd expect from Ken Holland. We'll see what happens. I am not completely 100% opposed to signing him to a new deal, I simply view it as being antithetical to the direction where we are headed.

Well if you want to accuse me of being overly optimistic about our players, I would say assuming a 3 year peak for Mantha is pretty pessimistic. Especially assuming that he will drop off so hard from that peak as to not be worth a contract that is unlikely to be massive now and will be even less massive after a few years of cap growth.

And your entire argument also hinges on being able to trade Mantha for a similar value piece on defense who is younger. What such d-man is available? If Yzerman could pull off such a trade, I wouldn't hate it completely. But I think our organizational depth on winger is pretty thin, while we have A LOT of d-men in the pipeline.

One additonal thing I would add: trading Mantha as an unsigned RFA is not trading him at max value. Signing him to a good contract without a NTC potentially makes him an even better asset, and gives us the flexibility to trade him going forward. At age 27-28 he might be at peak value if our team improves a bit. Trading him at that point if we feel he's not part of the solution is probably smarter than doing it now.

 

[Retire91]

You're not magically bringing in young talent. This is the consequence of cap era, a rebuilding team and a draft lottery (unlucky). Nothing else.

The players you mentioned were nothing more than place-holders as they take 5+ years to rebuild. If Yzerman has 3+ years of unlucky draft lotteries, people will be placing all blame on him and will be calling for his head. Never fails, not just with DRWs fans... but all team fans. Human nature I guess. Misguided anger is misguided anger.

It's not a question of luck, a rebuilding team should focus on draft and prospects and UFA that are impact players for a future core. That wasn't hollands focus, Holland focused away from that and made short term signings and locked up mediocre players to have just enough talent to be a wild card team. Until there were no options left and the wheels finally flew off. I can subscribe to bad luck but not when you don't give your team all the options to have luck. You can't say he had bad luck when he is trading away second round picks and moving down in the draft during a time when you should be rebuilding. You need the highest picks possible to have luck. I know some of those moves worked and some didn't but you can't argue that the statistically more successful players exist the higher you go in the draft. The truth of the matter is the wings went for it and ignored the rebuild. It's just like ignoring something in your car or your health, the longer you ignore it the worse the damage is. That is all I am saying is Holland defenders should be sucking it up right now because these are the losing seasons you supported by being behind Holland back in the day. If you supported holland but are calling for heads now, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[MBH]

It's not a question of luck, a rebuilding team should focus on draft and prospects and UFA that are impact players for a future core. That wasn't hollands focus, Holland focused away from that and made short term signings and locked up mediocre players to have just enough talent to be a wild card team. Until there were no options left and the wheels finally flew off. I can subscribe to bad luck but not when you don't give your team all the options to have luck. You can't say he had bad luck when he is trading away second round picks and moving down in the draft during a time when you should be rebuilding. You need the highest picks possible to have luck. I know some of those moves worked and some didn't but you can't argue that the statistically more successful players exist the higher you go in the draft. The truth of the matter is the wings went for it and ignored the rebuild. It's just like ignoring something in your car or your health, the longer you ignore it the worse the damage is. That is all I am saying is Holland defenders should be sucking it up right now because these are the losing seasons you supported by being behind Holland back in the day. If you supported holland but are calling for heads now, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Count me in the camp of Holland AND Blashill critics.
I wanted Babcock gone. He's a good coach. Even a great one. But his time was up here.
It always bugged me that Holland let that asshole call is own shots. That Holland was so confident in his "Blashill" plan B.
I would have fired that asshole before that last season (or before that), but especially before that last season, if he refused to sign. And then had a real coaching search, and not just assume that Blashill was definitely the guy.
There was a lot of hubris in this organization - from Holland on down.
The hard thing is, we might be paying for it for 4-5 more years.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

It's not a question of luck, a rebuilding team should focus on draft and prospects and UFA that are impact players for a future core. That wasn't hollands focus, Holland focused away from that and made short term signings and locked up mediocre players to have just enough talent to be a wild card team. Until there were no options left and the wheels finally flew off. I can subscribe to bad luck but not when you don't give your team all the options to have luck. You can't say he had bad luck when he is trading away second round picks and moving down in the draft during a time when you should be rebuilding. You need the highest picks possible to have luck. I know some of those moves worked and some didn't but you can't argue that the statistically more successful players exist the higher you go in the draft. The truth of the matter is the wings went for it and ignored the rebuild. It's just like ignoring something in your car or your health, the longer you ignore it the worse the damage is. That is all I am saying is Holland defenders should be sucking it up right now because these are the losing seasons you supported by being behind Holland back in the day. If you supported holland but are calling for heads now, you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

So if you supported a GM who won us cups and titles and made the playoffs for over 20 years you can't be upset with the current state of the team?! Sure buddy. Makes total sense.

BTW : I wanted Holland fired from 2012 - 2016 when I felt the team should have been rebuilding after Lids retired.
When Holland did start rebuilding I felt he was doing a good job at it. We've had a lot of picks because of his deals the last few years and my support for him came back because he was doing good.

This hindsight gatekeeping is getting tired.

 

[Gyldenlove]

So if you supported a GM who won us cups and titles and made the playoffs for over 20 years you can't be upset with the current state of the team?! Sure buddy. Makes total sense.

BTW : I wanted Holland fired from 2012 - 2016 when I felt the team should have been rebuilding after Lids retired.
When Holland did start rebuilding I felt he was doing a good job at it. We've had a lot of picks because of his deals the last few years and my support for him came back because he was doing good.

This hindsight gatekeeping is getting tired.

What a remarkably cogent take on the situation. I salute you sir.

 

[Retire91]

So if you supported a GM who won us cups and titles and made the playoffs for over 20 years you can't be upset with the current state of the team?! Sure buddy. Makes total sense.

BTW : I wanted Holland fired from 2012 - 2016 when I felt the team should have been rebuilding after Lids retired.
When Holland did start rebuilding I felt he was doing a good job at it. We've had a lot of picks because of his deals the last few years and my support for him came back because he was doing good.

This hindsight gatekeeping is getting tired.

I am really not following you, if you wanted Holland fired 2012 then you have every right to be upset with the state of the team right now, the team is a wasteland because of his management, or maybe more accurately the Illich's marching orders he had to keep making the playoffs. I am saying if you were a Holland defender up until the Yzerman hiring then what are you complaining about this team is exactly what Holland built doing exactly what you would expect from this roster.

To your second point sorry but I can't come around to supporting him when he finally woke up to a rebuild. Rebuilding when you finally have no other choice doesn't count as good management. Not saying he doesn't get credit for making some good moves, just saying when you started a rebuild 6-7 years after it was was obvious it was needed and you handcuff the team with terrible contracts in the mean time its just not something I can look past because of a few good moves. He kept his foot to the floor when the engine was on fire and when the car exploded and he finally called an uber I am supposed to just forget 7-8 years of destructive ineptitude? Sorry.