GDT: 10/25/2019 Game 11: Buffalo Sabres @ Detroit Red Wings (7:30pm EST

[Pavels Dog]

Two out of the last three drafts saw the Wings take wingers with their top ten picks. If those players can't replace Mantha and AA, then it doesn't really matter since by the time the rebuild ends up being finished, Mantha and AA will be 35.

Cap space should be made available until the Wings actually have a real core.

Replace? Why are you talking about replacing our few good players? We need to add. And keep adding. And then add some more. And then we think we have all the pieces, add some more on top of that. Then maybe add more at the deadline. And if we don't win the cup, keep adding.

Let me guess, if we take a center in the next draft we should trade Larkin, because that center should be able to replace him? Heck maybe Veleno can replace Larkin already. Seider can probably replace Hronek. McIsaac can maybe replace Cholowski. Trade all of them.

Btw we have tons of cap space even if we were to give Mantha and AA 8-10 million dollar contracts. And AA is gonna cost closer to 4 million if he doesn't completely turn around his season.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Almost all of the talent on the current Wings roster is completely unspectacular. With where the Wings are going to be drafting for a few more years, they SHOULD be drafting much better players than Mantha and AA, and it makes no sense to give Mantha and AA 5-6 year contracts that just ties up cap space when 90% of the contract will take place while the Wings are still a dumpster fire.

 

[Dotter]

Two out of the last three drafts saw the Wings take wingers with their top ten picks. If those players can't replace Mantha and AA, then it doesn't really matter since by the time the rebuild ends up being finished, Mantha and AA will be 35.

Cap space should be made available until the Wings actually have a real core.

They took centers outside the top 10 [Velano]. Who cares where they're drafted as long as they have the potential to become game breakers.

Wings got a much needed stud defenseman and the no-brainer kid [Zadina] who literally fell on their laps--the kid I wanted badly and everyone on this forum said Wings have no chance at getting!

And they already have center depth with Rasmussen who could very well be special in his own right.

Point is sure Wings need sure-fire gamebreaking centers, but they need sure-fire gamebreaking everything else, also!

 

[Go Wings]

Don’t tell me to move on to something else when you’re the one complaining to high hell with each passing game.

Vince Lombardi: Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.

The fact in this thread you suggested we should have went after Kevin Hayes in the offseason who signed one of the worst free agents deals is beyond hilarious. You want to pay Kevin Hayes more than 7.1 million for a measly 50 points once in his career? So keep the coach and should have signed Hayes is your advice. Maybe that really is you Ken Holland.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Vince Lombardi: Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.

The fact in this thread you suggested we should have went after Kevin Hayes in the offseason who signed one of the worst free agents deals is beyond hilarious. You want to pay Kevin Hayes more than 7.1 million for a measly 50 points once in his career? So keep the coach and should have signed Hayes is your advice. Maybe that really is you Ken Holland.

You’re suggesting I have said things that I haven’t in order to validate yourself.

It’s quite simple. Everyone is treating Yzerman with unquestioned support. “Trust the Yzerplan.” There a moves that have been made, or potential ones discussed where people, probably you included, have said “I don’t know about this one, but I trust Yzerman.” A lot of blind faith being thrown around. Yzerman HAD an opportunity to get a Kevin Hayes or a Jacob Trouba if he wanted to chase immediate results this year...but he didn’t. I’m glad he didn’t, because it’s throwing lipstick on a pig and this team needs more than one offseason yet. But whether you agree with him, or you sit there with blind faith and refuse to question him, you are supporting the product that we put on the ice. You are supporting being the worst team in hockey, and right now I don’t think there’s a debate to be had about that.

Do you think anyone is going lose sleep if Blashill gets fired? Hell no. He’s not that important in the grand scheme of things. But it’s clearly the minority now, there are people like me out there who aren’t jonesing for a hot take firing.

We can have a difference of opinion, just keep your overall toxicity somewhere else. Make a thread dedicated to firing Blashill, just stop making every game day thread your personal soapbox to cuss out and insult Blashill over reasons that are rooted in the fact that the organization gave us the worst team in hockey, and most people probably asked for it.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Vince Lombardi: Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.

The fact in this thread you suggested we should have went after Kevin Hayes in the offseason who signed one of the worst free agents deals is beyond hilarious. You want to pay Kevin Hayes more than 7.1 million for a measly 50 points once in his career? So keep the coach and should have signed Hayes is your advice. Maybe that really is you Ken Holland.

Watch 10 minutes of his introductory press conference in Edmonton and you will figure out it wasn't really Holland that has extended Blashill to be the coach currently of this team... One of the reasons he went with Tippett. I get the narrative though and I think Stevie was right to have Holland pull the trigger it has kept people that are really negative about Blashill with that buffer, so I get doing it as an organization. But despite the public narrative and I understand why they do that, but Yzerman hasn't been making decisions since just April, I really am surprised how many people believe that hook line and sinker. You think he wasn't consulted on major decisions since basically last August/September? Yeah not what I have heard at all.

 

[MBH]

We can have a difference of opinion, just keep your overall toxicity somewhere else. Make a thread dedicated to firing Blashill, just stop making every game day thread your personal soapbox to cuss out and insult Blashill over reasons that are rooted in the fact that the organization gave us the worst team in hockey, and most people probably asked for it.

The "toxicity" is a direct result of the results.
If you don't like seeing Blashill insulted, avoid going anywhere where hockey fans are talking during a seven-game losing slump.

 

[MBH]

Watch 10 minutes of his introductory press conference in Edmonton and you will figure out it wasn't really Holland that has extended Blashill to be the coach currently of this team... One of the reasons he went with Tippett. I get the narrative though and I think Stevie was right to have Holland pull the trigger it has kept people that are really negative about Blashill with that buffer, so I get doing it as an organization. But despite the public narrative and I understand why they do that, but Yzerman hasn't been making decisions since just April, I really am surprised how many people believe that hook line and sinker. You think he wasn't consulted on major decisions since basically last August/September? Yeah not what I have heard at all.

I've got a friend doing high level corporate sales for the Wings/LCA. He says Holland didn't think they were bringing Yzerman back to be GM. That Holland believed Yzerman would take the honorary senior VP job that allowed him to consult and spend more time with family, and that Holland would continue on as GM.
Holland believed he and Yzerman had an understanding on this, but that Chris Ilitch went around him to make him GM.

 

[LeftWingLocked]

What other North American professional sports organization has kept a losing coach for 5 years? This is unprecedented. We are seeing history here.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Jesus, what do you want our team to look like? Even if we draft two McDavid's, we need them to have players to play with.

We don't need to remove the little good we have in order to draft a foundation.

Eh, that's the same thing we heard about why we needed to keep guys like Abby, Helm, Howard, Green, Ericsson, etc on the roster. Mantha is 25 right now. We're not going to be a good team by the time Mantha starts to plateau and see his play drop off. He's also going to be very expensive to re-sign and will likely create cap issues when we have legit quality throughout the roster.

I'll never understand why some fans love the status quo and don't want to make any changes. Mantha has maxed out his development. If we were a contending team then sure, make a hard decision about trying to keep him while you are in your window to compete. That's uh...obviously not where we are right now. The type of thinking that we need to keep guys like Mantha until they have little to no value-good luck trading that Abby or DeKeyser contract! - is what got us in this mess in the first place; well that and really mediocre drafting.

If you can trade Mantha for a really good d-man that would give us a good top3 on defense along with Hronek and Seider. They will all still be really good hockey players in 3-5 years. With Mantha gone we likely increase our odds with the lottery with the goal of drafting a #1 center to go along with Larkin and Veleno. That's a solid core you can build around.Of course nothing is guaranteed but that is a course of action that makes sense and has the best odds of actually turning this thing around. Keeping our guys until their value plummets and living in cap hell while icing one of the worst teams in the league has zero chance of working.

 

[Run the Jewels]

What other North American professional sports organization has kept a losing coach for 5 years? This is unprecedented. We are seeing history here.

You grossly underestimate how much Holland loved a status quo that got us into this exact situation. This is Yzerman's first year. I suspect this year is all about evaluating every single aspect of the team. So far in a matter of a few months he's revamped NA scouting and the S&C program. I would be shocked if we didn't see at least one big trade at some point with one of our most valuable trade pieces, ie I expect Mantha to get traded. He's at a perfect point in his career to be moved where we can maximize the return.

The single most important thing to keep in mind is we got rid of the guy who loved the status quo and had zero interest in moving on from Blashill. Yzerman inherited this mess, but I have zero doubts he will be much more aggressive than Holland was in turning this thing around.

 

[RedWingsfan55]

I didn't catch the game tonight but checked the box score. Svech with 7:17 TOI tonight. 11 shifts.

Think you've got him on a short enough leash there Blash?

What's even better us when you're down 2-0 with about 6 mins to go. Offensive zone faceoff and you put out LITERALLY the worst 5 players you have. Your 4th line should never get an offensive zone faceoff then you do it with like 6 mins to go down 2-0? Come on....

I think blashill has done a decent job developing young players, but I think his in game decisions are awful. I dont like the lines being changed every shift, young players need time to develop some chemistry. Nor do I wanna see my worst offensive players getting offensive zone faceoffs.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We're not going to be a good team by the time Mantha starts to plateau and see his play drop off. He's also going to be very expensive to re-sign and will likely create cap issues when we have legit quality throughout the roster.

Cap issues? From where?

So you think.. if we sign Mantha long-term... we won't be a good team during that time.. but we also are going to have so much quality on the roster that we'll have cap issues?

I'll never understand why some fans love the status quo and don't want to make any changes. Mantha has maxed out his development. If we were a contending team then sure, make a hard decision about trying to keep him while you are in your window to compete. That's uh...obviously not where we are right now. The type of thinking that we need to keep guys like Mantha until they have little to no value-good luck trading that Abby or DeKeyser contract! - is what got us in this mess in the first place; well that and really mediocre drafting.

Mantha also has 7 goals in 11 games and is a point-per-game player so far. If this is his "max" then we should be pretty damn ecstatic that he has developed into a legit high-end player.
Trading him is what would keep a status quo. Push the rebuild down the road... look to the next wave of prospects instead. Keep rebuilding forever. But I guess any player that isn't a McDavid is an Abdelkader in some people's eyes.

You become a good team by collecting good players. Mantha is a good player. We don't have many.

If you can trade Mantha for a really good d-man that would give us a good top3 on defense along with Hronek and Seider. They will all still be really good hockey players in 3-5 years. With Mantha gone we likely increase our odds with the lottery with the goal of drafting a #1 center to go along with Larkin and Veleno. That's a solid core you can build around.Of course nothing is guaranteed but that is a course of action that makes sense and has the best odds of actually turning this thing around. Keeping our guys until their value plummets and living in cap hell while icing one of the worst teams in the league has zero chance of working.

Ah yes, the old imaginary trade that both gives us a "really good d-man" but at the same time makes us a worse team so we have better lottery odds. That's a good one.

 

[Retire91]

What is the point of firing the coach when the new coach is going to have the same bottom 5 talent to work with? People demanding action I hope you were on Hollands ass when he was not rebuilding in 2011-ish. Becasue if you weren't I hope you are enjoying the consequences of that. The team is completely devoid of talent. We only have 2 or 3 players that would last on a stanley cup roster, or we have 5-6 players so young only 1 or 2 of them would be rostered at one time with a full complement of competent players surrounding them.

I guess my point is, you didn't see this coming? I hope you enjoyed all of Holland's years bringing in washed up vets, and trading away picks to bring in realgud players to make sure and "get in and anything happens". Game after game you are seeing a direct result of that. This is not Blash's fault, its not the players fault, its Holland's fault and if you supported Holland then enjoy

 

[Dotter]

Am I misreading sarcasm or are people really starting to sour on the new GM after just 11 games?

After a 7 game losing skid from an openly honest rebuilding team- "someone must take the fall; heads must roll; tar and feather!" ~hfboards

Yzerman better hope the lottery gods are on his side or the mob will be looking for blood! Hope for his sake he wins the draft.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I guess my point is, you didn't see this coming? I hope you enjoyed all of Holland's years bringing in washed up vets, and trading away picks to bring in realgud players to make sure and "get in and anything happens". Game after game you are seeing a direct result of that. This is not Blash's fault, its not the players fault, its Holland's fault and if you supported Holland then enjoy

Serious question, what do you think would have been different right now if you remove every single "bring in a washed up vet" move by Holland? Would we be a contender? Would we be a playoff team? Would we have McDavid? Would we have Larkin? Would we have Cholo, Hronek, Mantha, Veleno, Zadina? Would we have only better players/prospects?

I'm trying to imagine what would be different. But, even with zero moves we'd likely be a playoff team almost all those years. So our pick position likely wouldn't be much higher. Even bringing back all the traded picks/prospects, it's hard to see how this team would be much improved.

 

[Dotter]

What is the point of firing the coach when the new coach is going to have the same bottom 5 talent to work with? People demanding action I hope you were on Hollands ass when he was not rebuilding in 2011-ish. Becasue if you weren't I hope you are enjoying the consequences of that. The team is completely devoid of talent. We only have 2 or 3 players that would last on a stanley cup roster, or we have 5-6 players so young only 1 or 2 of them would be rostered at one time with a full complement of competent players surrounding them.

I guess my point is, you didn't see this coming? I hope you enjoyed all of Holland's years bringing in washed up vets, and trading away picks to bring in realgud players to make sure and "get in and anything happens". Game after game you are seeing a direct result of that. This is not Blash's fault, its not the players fault, its Holland's fault and if you supported Holland then enjoy

Trading away that one late 1st rounder back in 2012? I'm sure Wings aren't missing Mark Jankowski and his -7 and current healthy scratch status.

Stevie Yzerman has already traded half as many draft picks as Kenny did in 14 years since CBA lockout (2005). All while Yzerman being named GM within weeks being at the helm. Let that sink in for a minute.

*Kenny traded all-in-all 3 draft picks since 2004 (Robert Lang) while getting 1 pick back in return (not counting his 2016 [Datsuyk] cap-dump Cholowski/Hronek > Chychrun trade fleecing!)

 

[Retire91]

comparing holland's and yzerman's trade record would need to happen over the respective years with their respective team. Holland rarely made a trade unless it was trading a decently high draft pick for a garbage rental.

That's a lot of years to cover to do a what if. I think organizational focus is the thing you need to most consider. It's not even arguable that the organizational focus was make the playoffs every last time you can. I am not even sure the rebuild was planned, it got to a point where any management of the team would look like a rebuild because you backed your self as far into a corner that the only moves left look like rebuild moves.

If the organizational focus for the last 6, 7, 8 years was actually sacrificing the streak to have another cup window in the future that would have included trading players when they still had value like not letting Filp go to free agency, not signing Alfredson and making the playoffs for no reason and picking higher in the draft where the higher talent is, not trading your second and Jarnkrok for 16 games of legwand giving you another shot in the second round for long shot talent and still having Jarnkrok in our bottom 6, not signing Abdelkater to 7 years and maybe even trading him when his stats still might have suckered a team into giving up a prospect or high pick, not trading away a draft pick to get rid of Daytsuk's contract when really what was the point of getting rid of it, it was only 1 year remaining. I am not going to go down the rabbit hole, just a few examples. The moves made over the years if the wings had had a competent GM that was making moves for the future would be too many to count honestly.

What you are seeing right now are the consequences of Abby Helm Dekyser, Ericson contracts, and not focusing on bringing in young talent but rather cheap veteran talent to artificially give your talent level a shot in the arm to be a wild card instead of giving yourself a shot at the top 5 talent needed to actually have a future. I am just glad we have a GM that understands that now and that is why you are watching a dumpster fire. But don't blame blash or Yzerman, you gotta go back to how we got here.

 

[guinness]

What is the point of firing the coach when the new coach is going to have the same bottom 5 talent to work with? People demanding action I hope you were on Hollands ass when he was not rebuilding in 2011-ish. Becasue if you weren't I hope you are enjoying the consequences of that. The team is completely devoid of talent. We only have 2 or 3 players that would last on a stanley cup roster, or we have 5-6 players so young only 1 or 2 of them would be rostered at one time with a full complement of competent players surrounding them.

I guess my point is, you didn't see this coming? I hope you enjoyed all of Holland's years bringing in washed up vets, and trading away picks to bring in realgud players to make sure and "get in and anything happens". Game after game you are seeing a direct result of that. This is not Blash's fault, its not the players fault, its Holland's fault and if you supported Holland then enjoy

I think people need a whipping post, and Holland is gone, and Blashill is the remaining connection. Bowman probably wouldn't be able to turn around the team. Shake up the lines, but likely getting blood from a stone.

Yeah, that's because of bad drafts, bad contracts, but everything goes in cycles. Bad team is bad, the 3-1 start was honestly fluky, and Mantha getting 4 goals was an aberration (2 goals since). If the top line has bad nights, gets shut down...Buffalo was garbage for years, but drafting seems to be paying off.

Also, see the Tigers. Avila gets dumped on, but he has to restock the farm system, and bad team is really, really bad - most of the players wouldn't crack the lineup of better teams. Although baseball is super tough, as only something like 12% of drafted players ever make it to the MLB.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

The team is going to be in the basement no matter who's coaching, and Blash is making headway on developing players. Why play musical chairs?

And if you're cynical, we need our tank commander.

 

[Lampedampe]

These results are great, i would hate to see Wings be competative this season.

 

[Winger98]

AA is going to improve.
Hirose won't. He's not NHL caliber.
Hopefully, Svech is. His skating is a fairly substantial concern though.

I expected to lose this year. I hoped our improving youth would make up for the loss of Nyquist and, perhaps, Kronwall.
That's not happening.

The signings of Nemeth and Filppula and the trade for Erne have not been fruitful.

I don't expect nor do I want to make the playoffs. But I'm not enjoying what this looks like.
And I don't see how much longer Yzerman can ignore this trash fire.

Yeah, it's been a bit more brutal than I expected. And with the draft lotto, I'm not sold on the benefits of trying to dive to the absolute bottom of the league. I can't find it any more, but someone posted a breakdown of the average PPG per draft position, and once you start getting to third or fourth or fifth, it's not a huge difference from sixth, seventh, or eighth. And it's way too easy to finish as one of the worst teams in the league, just to have the seventh and eleventh worst teams get some lotto luck and bump you of taking Lafreniere/Byfield and down to taking whoever.

I'm not sure what Yzerman can realistically do right now, though. I mean, he could can Blashill. It's a move that can be justified, but I also don't see it as a move that really changes anything that really needs changed. But to do that, we're looking at a significant deal of someone like Mantha or Athanasiou, and I think we'd have a hard time winning such a trade right now.

Hopefully, Svech and Smith can take these opportunities and run with them. I think that's our best hope for a meaningful change. And then we need the guys in GR and elsewhere to have some good years and set us up for a better next season. Really not fun looking towards next season before October is over.

 

[ricky0034]

What would you accomplish by firing the coach?

There is nowhere near the talent on the this team to reach the playoffs anyway and honestly, if you are not reaching the playoffs then all you can do is what the Maple Leafs did for so long, keep yourself from drafting differencemakers.

Finally this season we can get some old contracts off the books, get rid of some bad deals and old players and we have a few young players with pedigree in the pipeline. The worst thing that can happen now is hiring some temp who gives a boost and has us drafting in the low teens.

no matter how good an idea it may be to finish poorly on a macro level no team looks at a 7 game losing streak and is okay with it,it's both embarrassing and potentially financially damaging to the franchise

whether it's the coaches fault or not(I have my own opinions on this but honestly they're irrelevant here) teams can and do get short term boosts out of firing coaches all the time

there comes a time where that's reason enough in and of itself

 

[Run the Jewels]

So you think.. if we sign Mantha long-term... we won't be a good team during that time.. but we also are going to have so much quality on the roster that we'll have cap issues?

Mantha will want a long-term deal for his last big contract. He'll probably want a 5-7 year deal. It will take him through his prime and probably include 2-3 years where his play starts to trail off. Are you really going to pretend he hasn't been streaky his entire career as a hockey player? So in 4 or 5 years when we are good again you have an aging player with longer slumps who is being paid like a 35 goal scorer. We've seen it happen across the league, let someone else swallow that contract.

I heard the same defenses of so many bad contracts Holland signed rather than trade those guys at their prime. Your defense back then was that those guys were essential for keeping the playoff streak alive. How'd that work out?

Mantha also has 7 goals in 11 games and is a point-per-game player so far. If this is his "max" then we should be pretty damn ecstatic that he has developed into a legit high-end player.

He's a streaky player, always has been. Better to trade him when he's at his maximum value. Fortunately we don't have Ken Holland as GM any more as he'd do exactly what you suggest.

You become a good team by collecting good players. Mantha is a good player. We don't have many.

No, you become a good team through good drafting and by managing the Cap to get maximum value. Mantha's prime will be wasted here unless you truly believe we are a Cup contender within the next 3 years.

Ah yes, the old imaginary trade that both gives us a "really good d-man" but at the same time makes us a worse team so we have better lottery odds. That's a good one.

Apparently you don't watch much hockey. There are plenty of teams that have a good core but take a few years to get it going. One obvious example is Carolina, which has a boatload of good players on defense but it took them a long time to get to where they are now a team that can expect to go on a playoff run. Buffalo is looking like they turned the corner after struggling despite amassing a lot of high lottery picks.
Teams make trades to improve and I'm confident Yzerman will make those types of trades.

 

[PelagicJoe]

What other North American professional sports organization has kept a losing coach for 5 years? This is unprecedented. We are seeing history here.

The Cincinnati Bengals kept Marvin Lewis for a long time.