WJC: 1 Player whose Stock has Risen, and 1 Whose Stock has Fallen

[David]

I'm actually one of those people who think Doughty will be like Bourque but I think you are fighting a losing battle to say his December was as good or better than Bourque in his prime.

I'll be the first to admit I never saw a single Doughty game in December but finding things that differ between Bourque's prime and Doughty's December isn't hard. Where Bourque's prime was is debateable but I'll choose 1990-91.

Ray Bourque

76 GP 21 G 73 A 94 PTS + 33 Norris Trophy

Drew Doughty (December)

14 GP 3 G 4 A 7 PTS +2

Player|Goals/GP|Assists/GP|PTS/GP|+/-/GP|
Bourque|0.28|0.96|1.24|0.43|
Doughty|0.21|0.29|0.50|0.14|

For poops and giggles, Ian White's December topped Doughty's statistically in all but one category:

Player|Goals/GP|Assists/GP|PTS/GP|+/-/GP|
White|0.19|0.44|0.63|0.31|
Doughty|0.21|0.29|0.50|0.14|

Finally, someone who at least puts in some effort for a more meaningful conversation.

As I stated before, hockey isn't just about numbers...otherwise, Paul Coffey...no even Phil Housely would be considered as one of the greatest of all time. He had NHL 80 18 79 97 .

Also, Ray's numbers you listed came during the time of the Gretzky effect where scoring was waaay up.

What I wrote was ‘Doughty is currently playing better than Ray during his prime...no joke.’...not that he WILL have more points than Ray this year...although he may or may not in the future...prob not without Wayne... but there is a difference.

This is why I am asking people to go watch and discuss the play of Doughty.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Finally, someone who at least puts in some effort for a more meaningful conversation.

As I stated before, hockey isn't just about numbers...otherwise, Paul Coffey...no even Phil Housely would be considered as one of the greatest of all time. He had NHL 80 18 79 97 .

Also, Ray's numbers you listed came during the time of the Gretzky effect where scoring was waaay up.

What I wrote was ‘Doughty is currently playing better than Ray during his prime...no joke.’...not that he WILL have more points than Ray this year...although he may or may not in the future...prob not without Wayne... but there is a difference.

This is why I am asking people to go watch and discuss the play of Doughty.

You're right, it isn't all numbers but even if you apply the appropriate adjustment to Ray's numbers for era, Doughty's December will still get dwarfed.

I didn't argue who would have more points in their career, in fact I argued against exactly what you quoted: "Doughty is currently playing better than Ray during his prime". Those are prime numbers vs Doughty's December. Ray's stats as a 41 year old in the middle of the trap era were superior to Drew's December numbers.

If I came on here and said "In December Ian White played better than Ray Bourque in his prime" what would you say? Ian White's stats were better than Doughty's (and no, I am not saying White is better than Doughty, I'm trying to show you how your argument doesn't give you much to stand on).

It also doesn't help that you are setting up an argument that can't be argued. So I guess I would flip the tables on you. What aspect of Doughty's game in December was superior to Ray Bourque in his prime (obviously goal scoring, assists, points and the amount of goals going in the opposition's net vs his own at even strength and shorthanded wasn't it)? Be specific.

 

[CupofOil]

Once again, give me detailed examples of what Ray did better than Doughty is doing now.

Otherwise, it becomes painfully obvious that you either haven't even seen the kid play recently or that you have no idea how Raymond Bourque used to play...or BOTH!

Either way, you're only wasting my time.

Ok you win, Doughty does everything as good as Bourque if not better...
Look man, i know Doughty is a great player no doubt but when you compare him to an all time great, you're gonna get some heat for it, could Doughty be as good as Bourque someday? Sure he can but even though he's had a great start to this season, he still has a ways to go to live up to those comparisons
Also, would you say that Crosby is just as good as Gretzky because he had some great months in his career?

 

[David]

You're right, it isn't all numbers but even if you apply the appropriate adjustment to Ray's numbers for era, Doughty's December will still get dwarfed.

I didn't argue who would have more points in their career, in fact I argued against exactly what you quoted: "Doughty is currently playing better than Ray during his prime". Those are prime numbers vs Doughty's December. Ray's stats as a 41 year old in the middle of the trap era were superior to Drew's December numbers.

If I came on here and said "In December Ian White played better than Ray Bourque in his prime" what would you say? Ian White's stats were better than Doughty's (and no, I am not saying White is better than Doughty, I'm trying to show you how your argument doesn't give you much to stand on).

It also doesn't help that you are setting up an argument that can't be argued. So I guess I would flip the tables on you. What aspect of Doughty's game in December was superior to Ray Bourque in his prime (obviously goal scoring, assists, points and the amount of goals going in the opposition's net vs his own at even strength and shorthanded wasn't it)? Be specific.

Once again, you're focussing on numbers. Hockey is so much more than stats.

I've studied both Doughty and Ray's playing and stated what I saw. You've already stated that you haven't seen Doughty play recently so how can you possibly make any informed statement on how Doughty's playing recently?.

I'll be the first to admit I never saw a single Doughty game in December

It seems that anyone arguing against my statement is basing it on prejudiced views of ignorance and laziness.

I'll tell you what, go watch for 2 weeks and let's meet back here....otherwise you're only wasting my time.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Once again, you're focussing on numbers. Hockey is so much more than stats.

I've studied both Doughty and Ray's playing and stated what I saw. You've already stated that you haven't seen Doughty play recently so how can you possibly make any informed statement on how Doughty's playing recently?.

It seems that anyone arguing against my statement is basing it on prejudiced views of ignorance and laziness.

I'll tell you what, go watch for 2 weeks and let's meet back here....otherwise you're only wasting my time.

I know it is more than numbers but the problem is you are completely unwilling to say one thing that Doughty does better. I quite simply asked you to come to me and tell me what Doughty does better and to date, you've refused to say even one thing, which logically leads me to conclude that you can't. If anyone is wasting anyone else's time it would have to be you because you claim to want to debate yet refuse to offer anything to debate.

 

[David]

I know it is more than numbers but the problem is you are completely unwilling to say one thing that Doughty does better. I quite simply asked you to come to me and tell me what Doughty does better and to date, you've refused to say even one thing, which logically leads me to conclude that you can't. If anyone is wasting anyone else's time it would have to be you because you claim to want to debate yet refuse to offer anything to debate.

My request for anyone who wish to challenge my assertion on Doughty is simple to do and will easily expose those who are talking out of ignorance and prejudice. So why is this so hard to do?

I want to screen out the 'assclowns' -- as per Bob MacKenzie's own words on these boards (you know who you are) -- who'll blatently and blindly dump on any sound analysis without adding anything useful and know that I am discussing hockey with informed individuals.

And on the contrary, I've already briefly posted some of Doughty's positives earlier in the thread.

 

[Knave]

Ok you win, Doughty does everything as good as Bourque if not better...
Look man, i know Doughty is a great player no doubt but when you compare him to an all time great, you're gonna get some heat for it, could Doughty be as good as Bourque someday? Sure he can but even though he's had a great start to this season, he still has a ways to go to live up to those comparisons
Also, would you say that Crosby is just as good as Gretzky because he had some great months in his career?

I know right, Bourque is just some old, retired defenseman, I mean how good could he have been?

I like young players that I have wet dreams about at night.

 

[Sharp Skates]

Is there really a guy claiming Doughty is playing better than Ray Bourque in his prime? Where's that "hockey historian" Joe Thornton fan who went ballistic when someone said Lidstrom was better than Bourque?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

My request for anyone who wish to challenge my assertion on Doughty is simple to do and will easily expose those who are talking out of ignorance and prejudice. So why is this so hard to do?

I want to screen out the 'assclowns' -- as per Bob MacKenzie's own words on these boards (you know who you are) -- who'll blatently and blindly dump on any sound analysis without adding anything useful and know that I am discussing hockey with informed individuals.

And on the contrary, I've already briefly posted some of Doughty's positives earlier in the thread.

So to summarize, you don't want to state any tangible area where you figure Doughty is better than Bourque so I'll have something to watch out for.

 

[Que Sera Sera]

I don't think Kadri's stock has risen.

To me he has terrible puck management.

on the PP he seems to take shots at bad times.

He also doesn't seem to have the maturity you need for the NHL.

 

[McMatthews]

He also doesn't seem to have the maturity you need for the NHL.

He's 18 years old?

Sean Avery plays in the NHL.

/End discussion about Kadri's maturity.

 

[NYR Viper]

I wasnt able to see the WJC's as I was in China but I was wondering if someone would do me a favor and just type a few things on the Rangers prospects. Kreider, Stepan and Bourque.

 

[McMatthews]

I wasnt able to see the WJC's as I was in China but I was wondering if someone would do me a favor and just type a few things on the Rangers prospects. Kreider, Stepan and Bourque.

Stepan was absolutely awesome. He was on a different level than any other USA player.

Kreider was the most stunning skater in this tournament, challenged by Sami Vatanen of Finland. He also has a wicked shot and if he develops properly, could be a very awesome player. Reminded me of Alexander Mogilny.

Bourque was average. Nothing special.

 

[NYR Viper]

Stepan was absolutely awesome. He was on a different level than any other USA player.

Kreider was the most stunning skater in this tournament, challenged by Sami Vatanen of Finland. He also has a wicked shot and if he develops properly, could be a very awesome player. Reminded me of Alexander Mogilny.

Bourque was average. Nothing special.

Ahh, wow! Thank you very much. Many Ranger fans who pay attention to the prospects have been hyping Stepan, good to see he is proving some people right and that Kreider showed he can play at a high level.

Thank you again!

 

[HockeyGuy1975]

Relax…no one said that the kid Doughty was greater than Bourque.

Here is what was originally written: ‘Doughty is currently playing better than Ray during his prime...no joke.’

There is no ‘subsequent 'month of December only' qualification’…that is what currently means in early Jan. when the note was written, Einstein.

BTW: Hey, aren’t you that kid who is anointing Fowler as ‘a stronger Brian Leetch’ after his ½ season in OHL?

First, I'm not a kid.

Second, I said that "at best" Fowler would be a stronger Brian Leetch. Try staying in context, kid.

 

[David]

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/new...tml?cid=rsstsn

CTVOlympics.ca
Doughty piling up points since Team announcement

The excitement of being selected to Team Canada doesn't appear to have worn off for Drew Doughty.

The 20-year-old Los Angeles Kings could hardly sleep leading up to the Dec. 30 announcement and ended up being one of Steve Yzerman's boldest selections for the Olympic team.

He's responded extremely well to that vote of confidence, having accumulated more points (eight) than anyone else on Team Canada from the time the roster was announced through Sunday's games.

 

[David]

First, I'm not a kid.

Second, I said that "at best" Fowler would be a stronger Brian Leetch. Try staying in context, kid.

When you get to be my age, you get to call a lot of people kids...

 

[David]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/sarah_kwak/01/07/sean.avery.notes/index.html

Rising Doughty
When Team Canada announced its Olympic team last week, some observers may have been slightly surprised when Drew Doughty's name was called. Kings coach Terry Murray, however, was certainly not one of them. And if you saw the Kings mop up the Sharks on Monday night, you're likely not surprised, either. The 20-year-old defenseman picked up four assists and led his team in ice time with over 26 minutes[/B]. He's been lights-out for the Kings, and anybody questioning Team Canada GM Steve Yzerman's choice would get an earful from Murray, who can't say enough good things about the kid.

"With a player like that, when you have the skill level that Doughty has, you have to throw out the birth certificate," Murray said before Team Canada's selection was announced. "That can't even enter into the equation because he's at a special level. He's just a special guy. He's at a different level than most kids....
"He's not going to be nervous," Murray continued. "If you look at the World Championships last year, he probably went there as their No. 6 guy, and at the end of that tournament, he's their No. 1. He makes that kind of adjustment; he's that special of a player."

 

[David]

Isn't he on the Canadian Olympic roster?

I don't like the Kings - or the Bruins for that matter - so I am just passing by on this topic, but I can see no reason to get offended by the idea that this generation's Ray Bourque is Drew Doughty... The commentators during the TSN broadcasts of the WJC also made that comparison

Looks like TSN and I aren't the only ones taking notice of Doughty.

 

[David]

For the lazy and prejudiced ...you know who you are...from today's Star.

L.A. coach Terry Murray says young blueliner ranks with the best he's seen

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...y-leafs-could-draft-the-likes-of-drew-doughty

Doughty, from London, Ont., the second overall pick in the 2008 draft, comes to Toronto with a stellar resumé, and as much promise as any teenage defenceman to stick in the NHL since Bobby Orr."Well, I've been around a long time," Kings coach Terry Murray said Sunday. "I remember Ray Bourque coming into the league as an 18-year-old and he was a force for the Boston Bruins right from his first year. I watched Paul Coffey over his career and I coached him in Philadelphia, and he was great as a teenager. I had Scott Stevens as an 18-year-old in Washington, and going back to when I was a player, I can remember (Orr) as a teenager and no one was as good as him. ... That's a special group of players and Drew belongs in that class."