We need a Dman with high potential, someone with the ability to jump Zadorov. We are not getting a proven player like that for Duchene. If you want proven you are getting a middle pair guy. That's not what we need unless the goal is to have a mediocre team that is on the playoff bubble year after year.
Rumor: Zadorov heading to the KHL?
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We need a Dman with high potential, someone with the ability to jump Zadorov. We are not getting a proven player like that for Duchene. If you want proven you are getting a middle pair guy. That's not what we need unless the goal is to have a mediocre team that is on the playoff bubble year after year.
Nobody is saying he is a sure thing. He has the potential we need though. A proven Dman will not have said potential.
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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I agree that we need someone with potential who can push Zadorov down to the 2nd pairing. But, that doesn't mean we should pay top dollar in trades for any D prospect who shows the slightest bit of potential in juniors.
I also agree that we're not probably going to get a proven high potential young LHD for Duchene. But that doesn't mean that we should accept a trade where the majority of the value coming back is a lesser forward, and the D prospect is almost an afterthought.
With that said, there are a lot of ways this could play out that would allow/force the Avs to readjust their expectations in a Duchene trade. If the Avs draft Dahlin, for example, or Bean/Fleury/Chabot/etc. show something more than they have this far. Or, maybe Duchene holds out and demands a trade. But, until one of those things actually happen, there's no reason to assume they will, so the focus should still be on improving the defense as much as possible.
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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If we need potential, why not go after it through the draft, instead of trying to get another team to give it to us? Isn't that how most teams with good defenses have gotten most of their defensemen?
The slightest bit of potential? An afterthought? What? Don't downplay the kid.
Improving the defense as much as possible is only going to happen with high talent. And as you agreed, we are not getting a proven high talent.
It's one option or the other. Do you go proven and less talented while getting more of an immediate impact, but in the long run become mediocre? Or take a risk, hurt yourself short term, but maybe have something really good long term? Thats the problem with your boy Sakic. He's got not balls, but he is too delusion to realize Duchene isn't worth a proven high talent.
Don't even talk about Dahlin. Holding onto Duchene because we might draft Dahlin, therefor opening our options in a trade, is about as dumb as it gets. The odds are terrible we get him even if we finish dead last. But, Sakic is GM, so you might be onto something.
That sets us back however long it takes to find the guy.
And adding a proven guy now, which could help the short term, might hurt our chances at a higher pick. As long as we have Bednar I doubt we move up the rankings, but if he is fired early and we get a decent LHD then we could pass some teams, hurting our draft position in the process.
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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He's a prospect who was still in juniors last year. I wish him the best of luck, but I learned a long time ago not to pin my hopes on unproven prospects. Do I need to remind you how good Brandon Gormley looked in juniors? Or Stefan Elliott? Or any of the other highly touted prospects who did great in juniors but ended up not being anywhere good as hoped when they got to the NHL?
I'm also not against doing something risky. But, it has to be the right risk, and I'm not convinced Chabot is the right risk. If you want to convince me that Chabot is worth it, I'm going to need more than "we need potential" as the reason. What about him makes you think he has a realistic shot at pushing Zadorov down the depth chart?
And, I'm expecting the Avs to pick 4th (or higher) in the draft and miss out on Dahlin, but McIsaac wouldn't be a bad consolation prize. I'd even settle for Hughes, even though he's smaller. The point was simply to illustrate that there are other ways to get a LHD prospect, so trying to force a risky trade to get a lesser prospect might not be the best option.
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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Sets us back from what, exactly? We just had a historically bad season, and don't look like we're going to be competitive in the near future. How does being patient for another season and seeing what opportunities might present themselves set us back?
I also agree that adding a proven guy now might hurt us in the long run. This is my issue with getting someone like Murray. He's good enough to improve the D for the short term, but maybe not quite good enough to fix the D in the long term. With him, our already slim chance at Dahlin likely becomes even slimmer, and we might even miss out on McIsaac or Hughes. I'm even a little worried that we'll end up picking 8th or 9th, even if we don't add someone through trade, because that's just how the Avs seem to roll. With EJ, Zadorov and Varly hopefully being healthy (and signed), and a bunch of youth joining the team, I could see them overachieving.
Huge difference between "slightest bit of potential.........afterthought" and "pin my hopes", which nobody would be doing.
I'm not a prospect expert, but the guy is rated as one of the best. From what I've seen he seems to be the complete package (skill, skating, size, IQ, responsible) as well. If he isn't worth the risk, then who is?
Dahlin is the only one who would make Chabot a lesser prospect. Chabot is very highly thought of. Dude has progressed very well. I don't think guys like McIsaac and Smith would be more highly thought of at the moment.
Sets us back time-wise. Chabot is 3 years ahead of this coming up class. Another reason Hanifin would be so great. We can really jump start this rebuild if the LHD prospect is a little older. Screw this year, but it would be nice if he had a really good team 3 years from now, as opposed to 5.
I'm not a prospect expert, but the guy is rated as one of the best. From what I've seen he seems to be the complete package (skill, skating, size, IQ, responsible) as well. If he isn't worth the risk, then who is?
Dahlin is the only one who would make Chabot a lesser prospect. Chabot is very highly thought of. Dude has progressed very well. I don't think guys like McIsaac and Smith would be more highly thought of at the moment.
Sets us back time-wise. Chabot is 3 years ahead of this coming up class. Another reason Hanifin would be so great. We can really jump start this rebuild if the LHD prospect is a little older. Screw this year, but it would be nice if he had a really good team 3 years from now, as opposed to 5.
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IWantSakicAsMyGM
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I agree that Chabot seems to be the complete package, when playing in Juniors against teenagers. But, there's a big difference between playing in Juniors and playing in the NHL. If he had 30-40 AHL games and showed the same skills against men, I'd be a lot more willing to take the risk on him. But he doesn't, so I'm not willing to give up the value the Sens would want for him.
And, I'm not saying that McIsaac or Smith or Hughes are better prospects, just that they are pretty good prospects who we could get without paying through the nose.
I'll ask again, if Chabot isn't worth the risk then who is?
You straight up said "forcing a risky trade to get a lesser prospect might not be the best option" after mentioning Dahlin, McIsaac and Smith. That's the same as saying they are better prospects. Anyways, there is no reason we can go both routes.
And paying through the nose? Ha! We are talking about Duchene. First you downplay Chabot and now you are using phrases like "pay through the nose" for Duchene. Your hyperbole isn't helping anything.
You straight up said "forcing a risky trade to get a lesser prospect might not be the best option" after mentioning Dahlin, McIsaac and Smith. That's the same as saying they are better prospects. Anyways, there is no reason we can go both routes.
And paying through the nose? Ha! We are talking about Duchene. First you downplay Chabot and now you are using phrases like "pay through the nose" for Duchene. Your hyperbole isn't helping anything.
Makar Goes Fast
grocery stick
this thread comfuses me. Is Duchene being traded to the khl for zadorov?
Zadorov could be that big piece defenseman the avs need.
Zadorov could be that big piece defenseman the avs need.
Two months later and he is still here. Agents playing games again.
Surprise surprise surprise.
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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Hanifin would definitely be worth the risk, but Carolina understandably doesn't want to trade him. Fleury is more worthy of the risk than Chabot because he's at least proven he can play in the AHL, but he'd still need a pretty big add to him because there's still significant risk there. What other guys with top pairing potential are there out there that could plausibly be had? Most of the recent draft picks with that potential aren't available, so the list is pretty short. So, maybe Chabot is the third best option, but I'd want some pretty big adds to him, including at least another good prospect and at least a 1st round pick.
And, no, I'm not saying they are better prospects. I'm saying that they are free, and that paying top dollar for a prospect who isn't a sure thing, when you can have someone similar for free, is poor asset management.
And my "paying through the nose" comment has absolutely nothing to do with Duchene's value. Ottawa would likely want maximum value for Chabot, and I don't think it's worth it to pay that price. Of course, I'm also not in the group of self proclaimed Avs fans who believe that Duchene isn't worth much, like you apparently are. I think a 60 pt center with elite FO skills is worth quite a bit, regardless of what happened last year.
Hanifin isn't an option. And, seriously, Fleury over Chabot simply because Fleury has played in the AHL? Dude, that is a terrible way to evaluate prospects. Sounds like something your boy Sakic would do though. He too is either to bad at predicting future development or just doesn't have the balls to take a less proven player.
Like I said, you straight up said "lesser prospect". It's right there for everyone to see. You can't argue you didn't say that.
We are talking about Duchene, but what you say has nothing to do with Duchene's value?
Why are you suddenly taking Duchene out of the equation?
Like me apparently? Because I said it's an exaggeration to claim he is a 'pay through the nose' type?
Like I said, you straight up said "lesser prospect". It's right there for everyone to see. You can't argue you didn't say that.
We are talking about Duchene, but what you say has nothing to do with Duchene's value?
Why are you suddenly taking Duchene out of the equation?Like me apparently? Because I said it's an exaggeration to claim he is a 'pay through the nose' type?
IWantSakicAsMyGM
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Hanifin isn't an option. And, seriously, Fleury over Chabot simply because Fleury has played in the AHL? Dude, that is a terrible way to evaluate prospects. Sounds like something your boy Sakic would do though. He too is either to bad at predicting future development or just doesn't have the balls to take a less proven player.
Like I said, you straight up said "lesser prospect". It's right there for everyone to see. You can't argue you didn't say that.
We are talking about Duchene, but what you say has nothing to do with Duchene's value?
Like me apparently? Because I said it's an exaggeration to claim he is a 'pay through the nose' type?
Just because Duchene is part of the topic of conversation, doesn't mean that everything I say must be directly related to him. In this context, I meant it as paying the likely asking price of the Senators shiny D prospect, which would probably be significant. I'm guessing there are some self proclaimed Avs fans around here who would jump at the chance to get Chabot + 1st for Duchene, and maybe Sens fans would accept it, so it would be considered "fair value" according to HF standards, but I think that's either severely over valuing Chabot, or severely undervaluing Duchene, or a little bit of both. Prospects do have a tendency of getting severely overvalued here, and a lot of people only care about last year and how they can use it to devalue the player they desperately want. I think the Avs should get at least one more good piece, if not more, because Duchene is still a ~60 pt C with elite FO skills, regardless of last year. He's earned the benefit of the doubt that last year was a fluke, so I don't understand why so many self proclaimed Avs fans are so eager to trade him for less than he's rightfully worth. And, yes, that includes you.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
dude
Jarey Curry
Avalanche of Makar
So there's plenty of risk in valuing Chabot because he hasn't played in the NHL, all his pre NHL accomplishments be damned (I guess Makar isn't worth Duchene either), but no risk that Duchene will stay a middling 40 point center or regress like hundreds of other NHLers have throughout their careers?
He is, quite literally, not, until he proves it again.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
Half a season does not a middling 40 point Center make, especially half a season that comes on the heels of a 30 goal campaign that was followed by half a season where Matt paced for something like 38 goals & 56 points. IWSamGM is being absurd, and Duchene needs to show he can hit the 60s again after the absolutely horrendous way he played post-New Year's; but calling Dutchy a middling 40 point Center is also absurd.
leeroggy
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If you can get Chabot and then take Dahlin in the draft you should do so post haste.
After watching the entire WJHC and a lot of the Memorial Cup you can't lump Bean with Chabot. Bean is a potential 2nd pair with a lot of work to do. Chabot is a STUD, as good as ANY defensive prospect around. Including Dahlin. He was the best Canadian defender by far.
Getting them both sets your defense up for years.
cgf
FireBednarsSuccessor
This is where the Chabot hype gets excessive for me. Chabot is amazing and IMO the second best already drafted defensive prospect behind McAvoy; but Dahlin is a cut above them both.
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