Proposal: zadina + for kakko

[One Winged Angel]

I asked for an example of when/where someone said this in the thread. You didn’t provide one because it didn’t happen.

The person in specific who kept saying this I’ve already blocked. Check the thread. It’s there. Not my fault you’re too lazy to check it.

Fox for Zadina, Seider, and a top 5 pick isn’t the same thing as Seider for Fox.

You’re right, it’s not, but if you’ve read my post? I’ve said several times that the Rangers wouldn’t trade Fox for that and that’s been my point from the very beginning. You and any other Red Wings fan can think otherwise, but they’re not trading a 23 y/o defender playing Norris Caliber hockey when they’re trying to leave a rebuild for 3 assets who are pretty far behind Fox in development.

Because posters post external sources, analytics, and comment accordingly they don’t know what they’re talking about because they don’t agree with you? You’ve provided no reasoning outside point totals to justify your opinion and even then you needed to cherry pick those stats.

So it’s basically your word amounts for more than mine even though I have in fact provided evidence that they’re similar prospects. You’re the one that thinks that Seider is in a different stratosphere and I know you know absolutely nothing about Lundkvist because you imply Lundkvist as an offensive defenseman. Lundkvist is a two way defender.

Don’t ever talk to me about providing “evidence” other than opinion again. You have absolutely no leg to stand on.

You said the NHL has a bias towards the Rags after they just gifted them two lottery wins. Give me a break, that’s a conspiracy theory. Draisaitl is a top 5 player, let’s not act like he’s a scrub and is ineligible for awards because McDavid is on his team.

1. If you’re going to be disingenuous, you can at least read what I say correctly.

2. I said that Panarin is more important to the Rangers than Draisaitl is to the Oilers. The Oilers have the best player of a generation of Draisaitl isn’t there. The Rangers have Mika Zibanejad.

3. Since you’re going to contort my words, I have no reason to further converse with you.

 

[lucaseider]

Again, I’ve said they’re similar levels of prospect.

You don’t want to accept that and that’s fine with me.

Your the only person who thinks so, which is laughable considering you think somehow kakko is way above zadina.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Your the only person who thinks so, which is laughable considering you think somehow kakko is way above zadina.

No, I'm not because no Ranger fans are going to trade Kakko for Zadina. Not only that, but as I've stated SEVERAL TIMES throughout this thread, the analytics show that Kakko is a better player at this point and defensively, it's not even close.

So unless you've got something worthwhile to contribute to this other than some repetitive tacky snark with no substance to add to it, stop responding to me, because you're wasting my time.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It’s been said several times that the analytics separate Kakko from Zadina.



Again, analytics have said it. IIRC, they were posted previously in this thread.



I was told by multiple wings fans that the Rangers should and would trade Fox for Zadina, Seider and a 1st.

Fox is going to be off limits in a friggin Jack Eichel trade. Why in the blue hell would they deal him for THAT?



Yes and that still doesn’t change the fact that Lundkvist at 19 y/o broke records and outproduced Seider at 19 y/o is and still breaking records at his current age, despite Seider winning SHL defender of the year. All I’ve ever said is that there’s similar potential, not that one is better than the other and that there clearly a lot of Wings fans in this thread who know absolutely nothing about Lundkvist other than the numbers they find on hockeydb.



I said the voting for the Hart last year was screwed up because they voted for best player for it, not most valuable. You take Draisaitl away from the Oilers, they still have the best player in the world in McDavid, who won scoring trophies before Draisaitl got to this level. Panarin outproduced Draisaitl at ES despite inferior linemates and Draisaitl playing with McDavid for half of the season.

Funny, the analytics also show that Seider is on another stratosphere than Lundkvist but somehow this only matter when talking about Kakko and his embarrassing 20pt pace. I wonder why?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

No, I'm not because no Ranger fans are going to trade Kakko for Zadina. Not only that, but as I've stated SEVERAL TIMES throughout this thread, the analytics show that Kakko is a better player at this point and defensively, it's not even close.

So unless you've got something worthwhile to contribute to this other than some repetitive tacky snark with no substance to add to it, stop responding to me, because you're wasting my time.

It's weird to me that you use advanced stats to try to make up for the offensive gap between Kakko and Zadina, yet try to claim Lundkvist is a comparable prospect to Seider because they had identical D+2 production...

 

[Kaner9]

With KK I see a ot even with not much production but I never saw much outta Zadina. So Zadina +++ I guess?

 

[One Winged Angel]

It's weird to me that you use advanced stats to try to make up for the offensive gap between Kakko and Zadina, yet try to claim Lundkvist is a comparable prospect to Seider because they had identical D+2 production...

You all claim that Seider is a “defensive defenseman”.

Lundkvist is a two way defender. I’ve said several times throughout this thread, since none of you want to read, that Lundkvist has broken SHL records in consecutive years. I’ve said it’s possible for Seider to be SHL defender of the year WHILE Lundkvist is breaking records because it actually HAPPENED. That’s why I’ve said they’re similar prospects, while in your arrogance you claim that Seider is in a different stratosphere and point to “ShL dEfEnDeR oF tHe YeAr” and a couple of prospect lists in which no one has named.

You want this entire argument to be blown to pieces? David Rundblad. Remember him?

I bet you don’t without going to hockeydb.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

You all claim that Seider is a “defensive defenseman”.

Lundkvist is a two way defender. I’ve said several times throughout this thread, since none of you want to read, that Lundkvist has broken SHL records in consecutive years. I’ve said it’s possible for Seider to be SHL defender of the year WHILE Lundkvist is breaking records because it actually HAPPENED. That’s why I’ve said they’re similar prospects, while in your arrogance you claim that Seider is in a different stratosphere and point to “ShL dEfEnDeR oF tHe YeAr” and a couple of prospect lists in which no one has named.

You want this entire argument to be blown to pieces? David Rundblad. Remember him?

I bet you don’t without going to hockeydb.

Lol, you're not gonna win this argument, bud. You're trying to take a victory lap on Lundkvist having a whopping .005 PPG pace over Seider in their D+2 while ignoring every other aspect of the game. If you're that confident, go make a Seider vs. Lundkvist poll. You can even put in Neutral fan choices, just to weed out all the Detroit homers.

By the way, the production difference between Seider and Lundkvist in their D+2 seasons amounts to .4 points over an 82 game season. Just to make sure everybody reads that right, that's not four points, that's four tenths of a point.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Lol, you're not gonna win this argument, bud. You're trying to take a victory lap on Lundkvist having a whopping .005 PPG pace over Seider in their D+2 while ignoring every other aspect of the game. If you're that confident, go make a Seider vs. Lundkvist poll. You can even put in Neutral fan choices, just to weed out all the Detroit homers.

A fan poll of people who really don’t watch these two on the regular? That will surely do the trick. You’re naive at best, kid.

By the way, the production difference between Seider and Lundkvist in their D+2 seasons amounts to .4 points over an 82 game season. Just to make sure everybody reads that right, that's not four points, that's four tenths of a point.

You could list that all you want, but you’re dancing around the points I’ve made, which you ignore because they don’t help your argument.

I have no further reason to converse with you.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

A fan poll of people who really don’t watch these two on the regular? That will surely do the trick. You’re naive at best, kid.



You could list that all you want, but you’re dancing around the points I’ve made, which you ignore because they don’t help your argument.

I have no further reason to converse with you.

The only reason you wont make the poll is because you know the result.

But I like the way you just try to blow off anybody that exposes your delusions. Yes, your 5' 10" 190 pound defender who produced identically to a 6' 4" 210 pound guy drafted entirely for his defensive ability is definitely the same tier prospect.

I'll just leave this here:

 

[BStinson]

The person in specific who kept saying this I’ve already blocked. Check the thread. It’s there. Not my fault you’re too lazy to check it.



You’re right, it’s not, but if you’ve read my post? I’ve said several times that the Rangers wouldn’t trade Fox for that and that’s been my point from the very beginning. You and any other Red Wings fan can think otherwise, but they’re not trading a 23 y/o defender playing Norris Caliber hockey when they’re trying to leave a rebuild for 3 assets who are pretty far behind Fox in development.



So it’s basically your word amounts for more than mine even though I have in fact provided evidence that they’re similar prospects. You’re the one that thinks that Seider is in a different stratosphere and I know you know absolutely nothing about Lundkvist because you imply Lundkvist as an offensive defenseman. Lundkvist is a two way defender.

Don’t ever talk to me about providing “evidence” other than opinion again. You have absolutely no leg to stand on.



1. If you’re going to be disingenuous, you can at least read what I say correctly.

2. I said that Panarin is more important to the Rangers than Draisaitl is to the Oilers. The Oilers have the best player of a generation of Draisaitl isn’t there. The Rangers have Mika Zibanejad.

3. Since you’re going to contort my words, I have no reason to further converse with you.

It’s not there because comparable doesn’t mean greater than. Which is why I asked the question.

Did I see the Rags would do the trade? I merely commented on your post saying as I knew it wasn’t true and you just confirmed.

What evidence did you provide? Point totals which you had to cherry pick? I did the math and broke it down for you. Multiple users posted advanced stats and I even provided an external source of SHL experts confirming. So I’m not sure what you’re trying to say exactly unless it’s “if you don’t agree with me then you’re wrong”. It’s okay to have opinion but at least be able to defend it logically.

You said “You clearly don’t watch Adam Fox play. He’s playing Norris caliber hockey but won’t get the votes because of the team he’s on and draft pedigree.” I provided examples of multiple Norris winners that don’t have a “draft pedigree” or the team they plan on. You still haven’t logically defended your position here. I’m not contorting your words but rather providing evidence which you don’t like. I like Adam Fox, I just don’t like your conspiracy theories that the league is out to get your team with no supporting evidence. It’s ironic that you say I contort your words but when I quote you for saying person X said “blah blah blah” you can’t even point to it and admit you fabricated it quite a bit.

Its fine if you don’t want to talk to me. Probably would misquote me anyway since that’s the trend.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You all claim that Seider is a “defensive defenseman”.

Lundkvist is a two way defender. I’ve said several times throughout this thread, since none of you want to read, that Lundkvist has broken SHL records in consecutive years. I’ve said it’s possible for Seider to be SHL defender of the year WHILE Lundkvist is breaking records because it actually HAPPENED. That’s why I’ve said they’re similar prospects, while in your arrogance you claim that Seider is in a different stratosphere and point to “ShL dEfEnDeR oF tHe YeAr” and a couple of prospect lists in which no one has named.

You want this entire argument to be blown to pieces? David Rundblad. Remember him?

I bet you don’t without going to hockeydb.

Yes, I do. How about we all calm down. Kakko and Lundkvist are fine prospects. Zadina and Seider are fine prospects. You're not trading your guys and we aren't trading ours.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

the deal is unlikely but I think Trouba might consider it for DET.

------------

NY does NOT want to deal Kakko.
In order to justify moving him, Rangers would have to get something worthwhile.

Moving Trouba's 8m per would prob do it

btw, Trouba is not a horrible player.
he's just a bad contract

however sending that contract is not enough.
would have to be a signif add coming to NY as well w/Seider

Howev, does not have to be Zadina
could be 2022 or 2023 high but protected pick(s)

-----------
All that said, Stevie Y will not deal Seider, even if it accelerates the rebuild

Mother of God, Bern, you've outdone yourself again.

There's not a planet in the solar system where any NHL GM would call moving Seider for Trouba, "Accelerating the rebuild".

Most teams don't accelerate a rebuild by trading their future top pairing D for a 27 year old on a boat anchor deal.

 

[lucaseider]

No, I'm not because no Ranger fans are going to trade Kakko for Zadina. Not only that, but as I've stated SEVERAL TIMES throughout this thread, the analytics show that Kakko is a better player at this point and defensively, it's not even close.

So unless you've got something worthwhile to contribute to this other than some repetitive tacky snark with no substance to add to it, stop responding to me, because you're wasting my time.

The same things show seider is far superior to nils, you know, if your gonna cling to that.

 

[drw02]

It’s been said several times that the analytics separate Kakko from Zadina.

Zadina has higher GAR and WAR this year and last, which are better measures of individual contribution than stats like CF/60 and xGF. And Kakko's xGA, CA/60 are definitely helped being on a better, more talented team. If anything they're equals (value wise) atp. People on this site are just obsessed with draft pedigree, and Kakko came in with a ton of hype so naturally people will cling to that until it becomes crystal clear that the other guy is in fact better

 

[LeapOnOver]

I wouldn't trade Zadina for Kakko, especially not adding. Zadina has looked really good at times and when a player looks good for stretches, you don't just dish them off at low value. No telling when the consistency will come. Islander fans thought that'd be this season for Anthony Beauvillier and it hasn't been. But no way do you cut bait on a guy you know has the tools. Zadina has them.

 

[nbwingsfan]

A fan poll of people who really don’t watch these two on the regular? That will surely do the trick. You’re naive at best, kid.



You could list that all you want, but you’re dancing around the points I’ve made, which you ignore because they don’t help your argument.

I have no further reason to converse with you.

Can someone go on the Seider thread and show him all the advanced stats that show Seider was on an entirely different world than Lundkvist defensively this year? I'd do it myself but he already blocked me when I embarrassed him earlier in the thread so unfortunately he wouldn't see it and notice how ridiculous hes looking here.

While youre at it can you post every prospect list that has Seider way ahead? Hopefully then he will stop

 

[TGWL]

I'm not sure why we're still talking about Lundkvist in this thread... Nils Lundkvist was drafted 28th overall in 2018. The hype is that he's looking more like a top 12-15 pick than a 28th. That doesn't mean he's going to be as good as a player who was expected to already be a top 15 pick in Seider, but he's still one of the better D prospects not in the NHL. He looks a little bigger than what his draft had listed. We don't expect you to want Lundkvist over Seider.

Yes, we don't expect you to trade 3 great pieces for Fox.

Yes, Bern is out to lunch including Trouba here with Seider coming back the other way.

Yes, we're happy with Fox and have no need to trade him.

 

[bernmeister]

Mother of God, Bern, you've outdone yourself again.

There's not a planet in the solar system where any NHL GM would call moving Seider for Trouba, "Accelerating the rebuild".

Most teams don't accelerate a rebuild by trading their future top pairing D for a 27 year old on a boat anchor deal.

Not taking things TOO MUCH out of context are we?
I can see I am going to have to make some time out of my biz sched to address undeserved mud slingings.

As a careful reread shows, I did not represent Trouba for Seider essentially 1:1. I never have.

Previously, given Trouba was on verge of full NMC and had said somewhere DET was only other place he'd consider besides NYR, examination was made to see if an acceptable overpay WITH Trouba could get Seider, the idea being both move JT [then okay but overpriced, now w/K'A Miller solidly good again but still overpriced] for a replacement in Seider. With the drafting/emergence of Nils L and Schneider, Seider is redundant. I would still be open to some kind of deal if the add were doable, but there is less urgency. We are fully covered as to when Trouba exits and the only ? is when over the next 3 years will he see the handwriting on the wall and agree to a relocation with the understanding we will attempt to accommodate a preference, and in exchange he banks a favor from us down the road.
______________

In the instant context, OP was ok to ask about Kakko to DET.
Courteously rebuffed, we do not want to do Kakko for Zadina.

This was not enough for a vocal few who had to adamantly insist somehow it was, or some other variations in a package seeking to have Z man = main value for KK.

1. we do not want to move KK
2. for that matter, we do not want to move our bluest blue chip elcs
3. Although we are presently ahead of the curve and looking good, we will be moving Smith, Geo, Buch and Strome to make way for emerging replacements.

We are not interested in Zadina.
Not interested in moving Kakko
AND
IF IF IF IF
we were to consider moving Kakko to DET
then and in that event
THEN Seider would have to be coming back the other way
AND
to kill 2 birds with one stone, it WOULD HAVE TO be
something around
KK + Trouba / possible +s
for
Seider + /or ++ depending on rest of the package.

-----------
I never said Trouba 1:1 for Seider.
NEVER.

Gonna let this slide as sloppy on your part, but watch out with the mud slinging.
I prefer peace but if I have to reciprocate, I give as good as I get and then some.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Not taking things TOO MUCH out of context are we?
I can see I am going to have to make some time out of my biz sched to address undeserved mud slingings.

As a careful reread shows, I did not represent Trouba for Seider essentially 1:1. I never have.

Previously, given Trouba was on verge of full NMC and had said somewhere DET was only other place he'd consider besides NYR, examination was made to see if an acceptable overpay WITH Trouba could get Seider, the idea being both move JT [then okay but overpriced, now w/K'A Miller solidly good again but still overpriced] for a replacement in Seider. With the drafting/emergence of Nils L and Schneider, Seider is redundant. I would still be open to some kind of deal if the add were doable, but there is less urgency. We are fully covered as to when Trouba exits and the only ? is when over the next 3 years will he see the handwriting on the wall and agree to a relocation with the understanding we will attempt to accommodate a preference, and in exchange he banks a favor from us down the road.
______________

In the instant context, OP was ok to ask about Kakko to DET.
Courteously rebuffed, we do not want to do Kakko for Zadina.

This was not enough for a vocal few who had to adamantly insist somehow it was, or some other variations in a package seeking to have Z man = main value for KK.

1. we do not want to move KK
2. for that matter, we do not want to move our bluest blue chip elcs
3. Although we are presently ahead of the curve and looking good, we will be moving Smith, Geo, Buch and Strome to make way for emerging replacements.

We are not interested in Zadina.
Not interested in moving Kakko
AND
IF IF IF IF
we were to consider moving Kakko to DET
then and in that event
THEN Seider would have to be coming back the other way
AND
to kill 2 birds with one stone, it WOULD HAVE TO be
something around
KK + Trouba / possible +s
for
Seider + /or ++ depending on rest of the package.

-----------
I never said Trouba 1:1 for Seider.
NEVER.

Gonna let this slide as sloppy on your part, but watch out with the mud slinging.
I prefer peace but if I have to reciprocate, I give as good as I get and then some.

You literally countered with Zadina + Seider for Kakko + Trouba and then presented it as, "Accelerating the rebuild for Detroit".

 

[TLEH]

They are both prospects at this point, obviously, but Seider is the better prospect, very easily. Neutral fan.

 

[nbwingsfan]

You literally countered with Zadina + Seider for Kakko + Trouba and then presented it as, "Accelerating the rebuild for Detroit".

Guess we should trade the NYR Mantha + Rasmussen for Lafreniere+ Kravtsov since that will "accelerate" their rebuild

 

[bernmeister]

Mother of God, Bern, you've outdone yourself again.

There's not a planet in the solar system where any NHL GM would call moving Seider for Trouba, "Accelerating the rebuild".

Most teams don't accelerate a rebuild by trading their future top pairing D for a 27 year old on a boat anchor deal.

I repeat verbatim my post 244 which you ignored.
Literally, never offered Trouba 1:1 for Seider.

You literally countered with Zadina + Seider for Kakko + Trouba and then presented it as, "Accelerating the rebuild for Detroit".

Once we establish that you are misquoting me and thus wrong to that extent, that it was/is NOT a 1:1 suggestion, we can examine your above quote.

"Most teams don't accelerate a rebuild by trading their future top pairing D for a 27 year old on a boat anchor deal."
Again, your disingenuous retort cherry picks, suggesting only what you present.
IT WAS NOT A 1:1 SUGGESTION.

In the immediate context, it was Kakko who just turned 20 in February and Trouba for Seider, non negotiable, and Zadina or other acceptable asset, negotiable.

----------

Likewise earlier when Trouba's NMC had not yet kicked in, there was always a representation of a mutually acceptable add IN ADDITION TO TROUBA.

It is not possible to be more blunt or obvious than this. Kindly stop being obtuse.

------------
Obviously to what extent a rebuild is accelerated would depend not only on the age and other factors of Trouba vs Seider, but also would reflect the other parts of a deal.

Another legit argument in the equation is to what extent would adds such as Strome [part of a prior suggested deal] add depth and quality to a roster that sorry to say, while just slightly beginning to turn a corner this season, had suffered a few very rough years recently.

Even if an upperish mid 20s Strome does not fit long term for DET [although he could clearly fit 2-3 yrs, btw], he is still a quality asset that commands quality futures if that is the path Stevie Y takes to accelerate rebuild.

 

[bernmeister]

Guess we should trade the NYR Mantha + Rasmussen for Lafreniere+ Kravtsov since that will "accelerate" their rebuild

guess again.

After being in the draft + develop wilderness for the longest time, FINALLY gorton and his team are hitting on all cylinders generally. [Granted, a 1OA and 2OA help your odds, but NYR have not drafted that high in decades, we were way overdue. Also, that is only 2 picks.]

we will keep our picks as we exit the rebuild doldrums with Nils L and Morgan Barron joining the party next season.

NJ, DET are not that close yet

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I repeat verbatim my post 244 which you ignored.
Literally, never offered Trouba 1:1 for Seider.


Once we establish that you are misquoting me and thus wrong to that extent, that it was/is NOT a 1:1 suggestion, we can examine your above quote.

"Most teams don't accelerate a rebuild by trading their future top pairing D for a 27 year old on a boat anchor deal."
Again, your disingenuous retort cherry picks, suggesting only what you present.
IT WAS NOT A 1:1 SUGGESTION.

In the immediate context, it was Kakko who just turned 20 in February and Trouba for Seider, non negotiable, and Zadina or other acceptable asset, negotiable.

----------

Likewise earlier when Trouba's NMC had not yet kicked in, there was always a representation of a mutually acceptable add IN ADDITION TO TROUBA.

It is not possible to be more blunt or obvious than this. Kindly stop being obtuse.

------------
Obviously to what extent a rebuild is accelerated would depend not only on the age and other factors of Trouba vs Seider, but also would reflect the other parts of a deal.

Another legit argument in the equation is to what extent would adds such as Strome [part of a prior suggested deal] add depth and quality to a roster that sorry to say, while just slightly beginning to turn a corner this season, had suffered a few very rough years recently.

Even if an upperish mid 20s Strome does not fit long term for DET [although he could clearly fit 2-3 yrs, btw], he is still a quality asset that commands quality futures if that is the path Stevie Y takes to accelerate rebuild.

First off, I never said you suggested a one for one. I highlighted Seider and Trouba because the difference in value between Zadina and Kakko is so negligible currently that you apparently think the Seider/Trouba value is close. It isn’t. The difference in Kakko and Zadina isn’t even remotely close to getting Detroit to take Trouba’s unmoveable contract off your hands AND give you Seider.

More importantly, you really don’t seem to get that Yzerman isn’t trading away top prospects for lesser pieces, because you were saying this same ridiculous stuff last year, when you suggested Seider+ for a package highlighted by Chytil and Deangelo.

The GMs who rebuild like that don’t last long as GMs.