BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,792
- 3,729
Nonsense.
Sakic was on a horrible Nordiques team for quite some time before the Nords/Avs developed into a powerhouse.
He is the only player to score 100 points on a last place team.
Yzerman vs Sakic
- Thread starter Byron Bitz
- Start date
Nonsense.
Sakic was on a horrible Nordiques team for quite some time before the Nords/Avs developed into a powerhouse.
He is the only player to score 100 points on a last place team.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
I personally go back and forth on these two greats. Based on the longevity I am always tempted to take Sakic, and I guess if I had a gun to my head I would. However these two remind me of Bossy/Trottier where the second you say one of them you want to say the other. I chose Sakic, but in reality the margin is so slim for me that it doesn't matter much.
I think that they are different.
Sakic was a pure goal scorer with great vision and a hall of fame wrist shot.
Yzerman was a guy who was a great talent, among the best hands to ever play in the league, and a guy who could be on the ice in any situation.
To me they're equal. Similar to Bure and Selanne.
Sakic was a pure goal scorer with great vision and a hall of fame wrist shot.
Yzerman was a guy who was a great talent, among the best hands to ever play in the league, and a guy who could be on the ice in any situation.
To me they're equal. Similar to Bure and Selanne.
This comparison is flawed. Yzerman scored 60 twice and was on pace for 60 a third time. He scored 58 in another season. He scored 50+ a few times aside from that, and finished top two or top three in goals three times, and was on pace for another second-place finish. Sakic finished second place once, in what was his peak season and a huge outlier on his stat sheet goal-wise and point-wise. Yet you make it sound like Sakic is a far better goal scorer than Yzerman.
Furthermore, the Bure/Selanne comparison does not account for Yzerman reigning in his offense and becoming a defense-first player. Yzerman was still highly talented offensively (he finished top-ten in scoring in 1999-00 AND won the Selke) but had he remained playing an offense-first style, he would likely have continued to post 100-point seasons for several more years. It also should be noted that when Sakic entered the league Yzerman was already playing above the level of defense Sakic would play through most of his prime. It wasn't until the end of the 90s that Sakic would reach that same level and surpass it. Sakic's 2000-01 season was impressive in that he almost won the Art Ross and was a significant contender for the Selke (he finished second), but I think his Selke voting was "fluffed" by his high offensive numbers and that Madden and Lehtinen were the clear top-two IMHO. I'd probably have considered Sakic in the top five or ten, but I don't know that I'd have even placed him above Yzerman (who was fifth). Not sure why people decided Modano (third) deserved to be above Lehtinen (sixth) that year. For completeness, Ricci was fourth.
For the record, I think Yzerman's offense was cut down by approximately 80% of what he "could have done" after 94-95. In 94-95 I would estimate he was only scoring at 2/3 of what he was capable of because Bowman asked him to play defense first, and he committed to it to a degree that Bowman actually had to push him to be more aggressive in 95-96. So here are the significant seasons that may have been "altered" by that change, and how they might have looked:
1994-95: 47GP, 16-35-51 (12)
1995-96: 80GP, 45-74-119 (4)
1996-97: 81GP, 28-79-107 (3)
1997-98: 75GP, 30-56-86 (8)
1998-99: 80GP, 36-56-92 (9)
1999-00: 78GP, 44-55-99 (1)
2000-01: 54GP, 23-43-66
2001-02: 52GP, 16-44-60
I think those are realistic projections. Of course, Yzerman also likely does not finish top-three for the Selke, although as his defensive game was already improving it's possible he is still top-three in 1996 and/or 2000 simply due to having an offensive spike on a good defensive team. We've seen that one before.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Just curious, at what point did the poll turn in Sakic's favor? I feel like if you asked this question back in 2007 Yzerman would be winning comfortably, but lately (the past year or two) Sakic's been winning by a close but clear margin (usually gets 55-65% of the votes in polls).
Is it ever going to be safe to discuss a Red Wing on HOH again?
Yzerman was my favorite athlete of all time, but I cringe reading stuff like that. It really doesn't help his case.
Ok, if you disagree with the level I've placed as his "offensive adjustment" due to his change in playing style for those seasons, that's fine. Show me what you think he'd be at. Do you think he was at 90% instead of 80%? Meanwhile, here is something that another poster brought up in the Mario Lemieux thread I thought I'd point out. I've put in Yzerman and Sakic for every year, plus a couple other notables such as Messier's 1989-90, and placed the data in a table:
1987-88|Wayne Gretzky|C|64|91|1.42
1987-88|Mario Lemieux|C|77|74|0.96
1987-88| Steve Yzerman |C|64|61|0.95
1987-88|Mark Messier|C|77|70|0.91
1987-88|Pat LaFontaine|C|75|61|0.81
1987-88|Jari Kurri|R|80|61|0.76
1987-88|Paul Coffey|D|46|21|0.46
1988-89|Mario Lemieux|C|76|102|1.34
1988-89|Wayne Gretzky|C|78|100|1.28
1988-89| Steve Yzerman |C|80|101|1.26
1988-89|Bernie Nicholls|C|79|87|1.10
1988-89|Rob Brown|R|68|68|1.00
1988-89|Luc Robitaille|L|78|74|0.95
1988-89|Jari Kurri|R|76|65|0.86
1988-89|Jimmy Carson|C|80|65|0.81
1988-89|Doug Gilmour|C|72|56|0.78
1988-89| Adam Oates |C|69|53|0.77
1988-89| Gerard Gallant |L|76|59|0.76
1988-89|Pat LaFontaine|C|79|53|0.67
1988-89|Paul Coffey|D|75|49|0.65
1988-89| Peter Stastny |C|72|47|0.65
1988-89|Mark Messier|C|72|46|0.64
1988-89| Michel Goulet |L|80|51|0.64
1988-89| Joe Sakic |C|70|30|0.43
1989-90|Wayne Gretzky|C|73|96|1.32
1989-90|Mario Lemieux|C|59|71|1.20
1989-90| Steve Yzerman |C|79|79|1.00
1989-90|Mark Messier|C|79|71|0.90
1989-90|Brett Hull|R|80|69|0.86
1989-90|Pat LaFontaine|C|74|63|0.85
1989-90|Luc Robitaille|L|80|67|0.84
1989-90| Joe Sakic |C|80|66|0.83
1989-90|Adam Oates|C|80|65|0.81
1989-90| Gerard Gallant |L|69|50|0.72
1989-90|Cam Neely|R|76|54|0.71
1989-90|Jari Kurri|R|78|54|0.69
1989-90|Paul Coffey|D|80|54|0.68
1989-90|Doug Gilmour|C|78|51|0.65
1989-90| Peter Stastny (QUE) |C|62|34|0.55
1989-90| Shawn Burr |F|76|40|0.53
1989-90|Raymond Bourque|D|76|37|0.49
1989-90| Bernie Federko |C|73|33|0.45
1989-90| Michel Goulet (QUE) |L|57|21|0.37
1990-91|Wayne Gretzky|C|78|103|1.32
1990-91|Adam Oates|C|61|73|1.20
1990-91|Mario Lemieux|C|26|31|1.19
1990-91|Brett Hull|R|78|86|1.10
1990-91|Cam Neely|R|69|61|0.88
1990-91|Luc Robitaille|L|76|68|0.89
1990-91| Joe Sakic |C|80|71|0.89
1990-91| Steve Yzerman |C|80|68|0.85
1990-91|Alexander Mogilny|F|62|51|0.82
1990-91|Mark Messier|C|53|42|0.79
1990-91|Doug Gilmour|C|78|59|0.76
1990-91|Paul Coffey|D|76|51|0.67
1990-91|Pat LaFontaine|C|75|50|0.67
1990-91|Raymond Bourque|D|76|49|0.64
1990-91| Sergei Fedorov |C|77|48|0.62
1990-91| Mats Sundin |F|80|47|0.59
1991-92|Mario Lemieux|C|64|74|1.16
1991-92|Kevin Stevens|L|80|81|1.01
1991-92|Brett Hull|R|73|64|0.88
1991-92|Adam Oates (STL)|C|54|46|0.85
1991-92|Wayne Gretzky|C|74|63|0.85
1991-92| Steve Yzerman |C|79|66|0.84
1991-92|Mark Messier|C|79|65|0.82
1991-92| Joe Sakic |C|69|56|0.81
1991-92|Pat LaFontaine|C|57|45|0.79
1991-92|Alexander Mogilny|R|67|51|0.76
1991-92|Luc Robitaille|L|80|60|0.75
1991-92|Doug Gilmour|C|78|56|0.72
1991-92|Brian Leetch|D|80|55|0.69
1991-92| Sergei Fedorov |C|80|54|0.68
1991-92| Mats Sundin |F|80|54|0.68
1991-92| Owen Nolan |R|75|49|0.65
1991-92| Paul Ysebaert |L|80|50|0.63
1991-92|Pavel Bure|L|65|40|0.62
1991-92|Paul Coffey (PIT)|D|54|33|0.61
1991-92|Paul Coffey (LA)|D|10|3|0.30
1992-93|Mario Lemieux|C|60|96|1.60
1992-93| Steve Yzerman |C|84|87|1.04
1992-93|Alexander Mogilny|R|77|79|1.03
1992-93|Pat LaFontaine|C|84|83|0.99
1992-93|Teemu Selanne|R|84|83|0.99
1992-93|Kevin Stevens|L|72|67|0.93
1992-93|Adam Oates|C|84|78|0.93
1992-93|Luc Robitaille|L|84|76|0.90
1992-93|Jaromir Jagr|R|81|71|0.88
1992-93|Wayne Gretzky|C|45|38|0.84
1992-93|Pavel Bure|R|83|68|0.82
1992-93|Joe Juneau|L|84|65|0.77
1992-93|Mark Messier|C|75|57|0.76
1992-93|Doug Gilmour|C|83|63|0.76
1992-93| Mats Sundin |C|80|58|0.73
1992-93| Joe Sakic |C|78|55|0.71
1992-93|Jari Kurri|F|82|53|0.65
1992-93| Dino Ciccarelli |R|82|53|0.65
1992-93| Sergei Fedorov |C|73|47|0.64
1992-93| Owen Nolan |R|73|47|0.64
1992-93|Paul Coffey (LA)|D|50|27|0.54
1992-93| Paul Coffey (DET) |D|30|9|0.30
1993-94|Eric Lindros|C|65|67|1.03
1993-94|Mario Lemieux|C|22|22|1.00
1993-94| Sergei Fedorov |C|82|81|0.99
1993-94|Cam Neely|R|49|47|0.96
1993-94| Steve Yzerman |C|58|52|0.90
1993-94|Jaromir Jagr|R|80|70|0.88
1993-94|Adam Oates|C|77|62|0.81
1993-94|Wayne Gretzky|C|81|62|0.77
1993-94|Pavel Bure|R|76|58|0.76
1993-94|Doug Gilmour|C|83|60|0.72
1993-94| Ray Sheppard |R|82|57|0.70
1993-94| Keith Primeau |L|78|53|0.68
1993-94| Joe Sakic |C|84|57|0.68
1993-94| Valeri Kamensky |L|76|51|0.67
1993-94| Slava Kozlov |L|77|51|0.66
1993-94|Ron Francis|C|82|52|0.63
1993-94| Mats Sundin |C|84|53|0.63
1993-94|Luc Robitaille|L|83|46|0.55
1993-94|Mark Messier|C|76|39|0.51
1993-94| Paul Coffey |D|80|41|0.51
1994-95|Eric Lindros|C|46|46|1.00
1994-95|Mikael Renberg|R|47|45|0.96
1994-95|Jaromir Jagr|R|48|45|0.94
1994-95|Ron Francis|C|44|37|0.84
1994-95|John Leclair|L|46|37|0.80
1994-95| Joe Sakic |C|47|37|0.79
1994-95| Sergei Fedorov |C|42|31|0.74
1994-95|Luc Robitaille|L|46|34|0.74
1994-95| Peter Forsberg |C|47|34|0.72
1994-95| Keith Primeau |L|45|32|0.71
1994-95|Mark Messier|C|46|30|0.65
1994-95| Owen Nolan |R|46|30|0.65
1994-95| Ray Sheppard |R|43|27|0.63
1994-95| Wendel Clark |L|37|22|0.59
1994-95| Paul Coffey |D|45|26|0.58
1994-95|Pavel Bure|R|44|24|0.55
1994-95|Wayne Gretzky|C|48|23|0.48
1994-95| Slava Kozlov |L|46|21|0.46
1994-95| Valeri Kamensky |L|40|17|0.43
1994-95| Steve Yzerman |C|47|19|0.40
1995-96|Jaromir Jagr|R|82|95|1.16
1995-96|Mario Lemieux|F|70|73|1.04
1995-96|Eric Lindros|C|73|75|1.03
1995-96|Alexander Mogilny|R|79|71|0.90
1995-96| Peter Forsberg |C|82|70|0.85
1995-96| Sergei Fedorov |F|78|65|0.83
1995-96|Ron Francis|C|77|63|0.82
1995-96|Mark Messier|C|74|58|0.78
1995-96| Joe Sakic |C|82|62|0.76
1995-96|John Leclair|L|82|60|0.73
1995-96|Wayne Gretzky|C|80|54|0.68
1995-96| Claude Lemieux |R|79|53|0.67
1995-96| Slava Kozlov |L|82|53|0.65
1995-96| Valeri Kamensky |L|81|52|0.64
1995-96|Pat LaFontaine|C|76|49|0.64
1995-96| Steve Yzerman |C|80|50|0.63
1995-96| Igor Larionov |C|69|43|0.62
1995-96| Adam Deadmarsh |R|78|40|0.51
1995-96| Keith Primeau |F|74|33|0.45
1996-97|Eric Lindros|C|52|56|1.10
1996-97|Jaromir Jagr|R|63|67|1.06
1996-97|Mario Lemieux|C|76|79|1.04
1996-97|John Leclair|L|82|81|0.99
1996-97|Teemu Selanne|R|78|76|0.97
1996-97| Peter Forsberg |C|65|53|0.82
1996-97|Wayne Gretzky|C|82|66|0.80
1996-97|Mark Messier|C|71|55|0.77
1996-97|Alexander Mogilny|F|76|55|0.72
1996-97| Steve Yzerman |C|81|57|0.70
1996-97|Ron Francis|C|81|54|0.67
1996-97|Pavel Bure|R|63|40|0.63
1996-97| Sergei Fedorov |C|74|45|0.61
1996-97| Brendan Shanahan (DET) |L|79|48|0.61
1996-97| Valeri Kamensky |L|68|40|0.59
1996-97| Igor Larionov |C|64|35|0.55
1996-97| Joe Sakic |C|65|35|0.54
1996-97| Slava Kozlov |L|75|36|0.48
1996-97| Adam Deadmarsh |R|78|32|0.41
1997-98|Paul Kariya|L|22|26|1.18
1997-98|Teemu Selänne|R|73|67|0.92
1997-98|Jaromir Jagr|R|77|64|0.83
1997-98|John Leclair|L|82|60|0.73
1997-98|Eric Lindros|C|63|46|0.73
1997-98| Peter Forsberg |C|72|51|0.71
1997-98|Wayne Gretzky|C|82|58|0.71
1997-98|Pavel Bure|R|82|56|0.68
1997-98|Ron Francis|C|81|55|0.68
1997-98| Sergei Fedorov |F|21|13|0.62
1997-98| Joe Sakic |C|64|34|0.53
1997-98| Steve Yzerman |C|75|39|0.52
1997-98| Valeri Kamensky |L|75|39|0.52
1997-98| Slava Kozlov |L|80|35|0.44
1997-98| Claude Lemieux |R|78|34|0.44
1997-98| Brendan Shanahan |L|75|32|0.43
1997-98| Igor Larionov |C|69|30|0.43
1997-98| Adam Deadmarsh |R|73|25|0.34
1998-99| Theoren Fleury (COL) |R|15|19|1.27
1998-99|Jaromir Jagr|R|81|82|1.01
1998-99|Eric Lindros|C|71|65|0.92
1998-99|John Leclair|L|76|65|0.86
1998-99|Mats Sundin|C|82|67|0.82
1998-99| Joe Sakic |C|73|56|0.77
1998-99| Peter Forsberg |C|78|54|0.69
1998-99| Steve Yzerman |C|80|47|0.59
1998-99| Sergei Fedorov |C|77|42|0.55
1998-99| Brendan Shanahan |L|81|40|0.49
1998-99| Igor Larionov |C|75|37|0.49
1998-99| Valeri Kamensky |L|65|32|0.49
1998-99|Wayne Gretzky|C|70|32|0.46
1998-99| Milan Hejduk |R|82|37|0.45
1998-99| Slava Kozlov |L|79|35|0.44
1998-99| Adam Deadmarsh |F|66|28|0.42
1998-99| Chris Drury |C|79|31|0.39
1998-99| Claude Lemieux |R|82|25|0.30
1999-00|Jaromir Jagr|R|63|67|1.06
1999-00|Pavel Bure|R|74|72|0.97
1999-00| Joe Sakic |C|60|58|0.97
1999-00| Peter Forsberg |C|49|36|0.73
1999-00|Jeremy Roenick|C|75|55|0.73
1999-00|Tony Amonte|R|82|59|0.72
1999-00|Paul Kariya|L|74|52|0.70
1999-00|Mats Sundin|C|73|51|0.70
1999-00|Teemu Selanne|R|79|54|0.68
1999-00|John Leclair|L|82|53|0.65
1999-00| Steve Yzerman |C|78|46|0.59
1999-00| Brendan Shanahan |L|78|46|0.59
1999-00| Sergei Fedorov |C|68|38|0.56
1999-00| Alex Tanguay |L|76|41|0.54
1999-00| Milan Hejduk |R|82|44|0.54
1999-00| Chris Drury |F|82|44|0.54
1999-00| Pat Verbeek |R|68|35|0.51
1999-00| Igor Larionov |C|79|32|0.41
1999-00| Slava Kozlov |L|72|28|0.39
1999-00| Adam Deadmarsh |F|71|25|0.35
2000-01|Mario Lemieux|C|43|43|1.00
2000-01|Jaromir Jagr|R|81|78|0.96
2000-01| Joe Sakic |C|82|66|0.80
2000-01|Patrik Elias|L|82|64|0.78
2000-01|Pavel Bure|R|82|59|0.72
2000-01| Alex Tanguay |L|82|58|0.71
2000-01| Peter Forsberg |C|73|47|0.64
2000-01| Milan Hejduk |R|80|49|0.61
2000-01| Steve Yzerman |C|54|31|0.57
2000-01| Chris Drury |F|71|35|0.49
2000-01| Brendan Shanahan |L|81|39|0.48
2000-01| Martin Lapointe |R|82|33|0.40
2000-01| Slava Kozlov |L|72|29|0.40
2000-01| Sergei Fedorov |C|75|29|0.39
2001-02|Alexei Kovalev|F|67|53|0.79
2001-02|Jaromir Jagr|R|69|54|0.78
2001-02|Jarome Iginla|R|82|64|0.78
2001-02|Todd Bertuzzi|R|72|55|0.76
2001-02|Markus Naslund|L|81|59|0.73
2001-02|Mario Lemieux|C|24|17|0.71
2001-02|Glen Murray (BOS)|R|73|51|0.70
2001-02|Joe Thornton|C|66|46|0.70
2001-02| Joe Sakic |C|82|53|0.65
2001-02|Craig Conroy|C|81|48|0.59
2001-02| Sergei Fedorov |C|81|45|0.56
2001-02| Brendan Shanahan |L|80|44|0.55
2001-02| Brett Hull |R|82|40|0.49
2001-02| Steve Yzerman |C|52|24|0.46
2001-02| Steve Reinprecht |F|67|29|0.43
2001-02| Alex Tanguay |L|70|29|0.41
2001-02| Milan Hejduk |R|62|25|0.40
2001-02| Chris Drury |F|82|30|0.37
2001-02| Luc Robitaille |L|81|29|0.36
2002-03| Peter Forsberg |F|75|73|0.97
2002-03|Joe Thornton|C|77|65|0.84
2002-03| Milan Hejduk |R|82|63|0.77
2002-03|Glen Murray|R|82|63|0.77
2002-03| Joe Sakic |C|58|39|0.67
2002-03|Todd Bertuzzi|R|82|55|0.67
2002-03| Sergei Fedorov |C|80|52|0.65
2002-03| Alex Tanguay |L|82|52|0.63
2002-03|Markus Naslund|L|82|50|0.61
2002-03|Jaromir Jagr|R|75|45|0.60
2002-03|Jarome Iginla|R|75|44|0.59
2002-03| Brett Hull |R|82|48|0.59
2002-03| Pavel Datsyuk |C|64|37|0.58
2002-03| Brendan Shanahan |L|78|40|0.51
2002-03| Steve Reinprecht |F|77|34|0.44
2002-03| Henrik Zetterberg |L|79|33|0.42
2002-03| Steve Yzerman |F|16|5|0.31
2003-04| Peter Forsberg |C|39|30|0.77
2003-04| Alex Tanguay |L|69|53|0.77
2003-04|Markus Naslund|L|78|58|0.74
2003-04|Joe Thornton|C|77|57|0.74
2003-04|Patrik Elias|L|82|57|0.70
2003-04|Scott Gomez|C|80|54|0.68
2003-04|Todd Bertuzzi|R|69|44|0.64
2003-04|Jaromir Jagr|R|77|48|0.62
2003-04| Joe Sakic |C|81|49|0.60
2003-04| Pavel Datsyuk |C|75|44|0.59
2003-04|Glen Murray|R|81|46|0.57
2003-04| Brett Hull |R|81|45|0.56
2003-04| Milan Hejduk |R|82|46|0.56
2003-04| Steve Yzerman |F|75|33|0.44
2003-04| Henrik Zetterberg |L|61|26|0.43
2003-04| Ray Whitney |F|67|29|0.43
2003-04| Brendan Shanahan |L|82|33|0.40
2003-04| Paul Kariya |L|51|20|0.39
2003-04| Steve Konowalchuk |F|76|30|0.39
2003-04| Teemu Selanne |R|78|22|0.28
2005-06|Joe Thornton|C|81|72|0.89
2005-06|Jaromir Jagr|R|82|71|0.87
2005-06|Michael Nylander|C|81|62|0.77
2005-06|Jason Spezza|C|68|49|0.72
2005-06| Alex Tanguay |L|71|49|0.69
2005-06| Joe Sakic |C|82|53|0.65
2005-06| Brendan Shanahan |F|82|53|0.65
2005-06| Pavel Datsyuk |C|75|48|0.64
2005-06| Henrik Zetterberg |L|77|49|0.64
2005-06| Robert Lang |C|72|38|0.53
2005-06| Ian Laperriere |C|82|42|0.51
2005-06| Milan Hejduk |R|74|33|0.45
2005-06| Andrew Brunette |L|82|35|0.43
2005-06| Steve Yzerman |F|61|23|0.38
2006-07|Daniel Briere|C|81|65|0.80
2006-07|Jason Spezza|C|67|52|0.78
2006-07|Vincent Lecavalier|C|82|63|0.77
2006-07|Sidney Crosby|C|79|59|0.75
2006-07|Joe Thornton|C|82|60|0.73
2006-07| Joe Sakic |C|82|57|0.70
2006-07|Jaromir Jagr|R|82|55|0.67
2006-07|Alexander Ovechkin|L|82|55|0.67
2006-07| Andrew Brunette |L|82|47|0.57
2006-07| Milan Hejduk |R|80|45|0.56
2006-07| Paul Stastny |C|82|46|0.56
2006-07| Tyler Arnason |F|82|37|0.45
In bold red are Detroit players, and in bold blue are Quebec/Colorado players.
Interesting note; while putting this together I noticed a fact I was not previously aware of. Joe Sakic played his rookie season with Peter Stastny, and played his final season with Paul Stastny (Peter's son). Outside of players who played with the Howes in 1979-80 (who were on the same team) the only player I am aware of who did uch a thing in the NHL are Ron Wilson (Winnipeg with Bobby, then St. Louis with Brett in the early 90s) and Gordie Roberts (Hartford with Bobby, then St. Louis with Brett in the late 80s).
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mrhockey193195
Registered User
This comparison has been done 10 million times on this board. And I will say the same thing now as I always have:
These two guys were two of the absolute greatest, had very similar careers, and you absolutely cannot go wrong picking one or the other. I personally think Sakic comes out a fraction ahead, but if you were to pick Yzerman instead, who could possibly complain.
So long as you don't claim that one was substantially better than the other, there is no wrong answer here.
These two guys were two of the absolute greatest, had very similar careers, and you absolutely cannot go wrong picking one or the other. I personally think Sakic comes out a fraction ahead, but if you were to pick Yzerman instead, who could possibly complain.
So long as you don't claim that one was substantially better than the other, there is no wrong answer here.
Sakic's peak earned him no awards. He didn't win the Hart until his 30's when the league had no threat from Lemieux and Gretzky.
Yzerman's peak earned him a Pearson against Peak/Prime Lemieux and Gretzky
Yzerman's peak earned him a Pearson against Peak/Prime Lemieux and Gretzky
Just saying Sakic had a longer Prime
Yzerman had the higher peak and was a better overall player
Yzerman had the higher peak and was a better overall player
I have two questions.
1. What makes Sakic better?
2. Why would someone be wrong if they were to claim one player was significantly ahead?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Except he didn't really earn it, because he wasn't actually the league's most outstanding player - Lemiuex and Gretzky were.
King Forsberg
16 21 28 44 68 88 93
- Jul 26, 2010
- 6,192
- 59
This and couldn't to say Sakic's peak was 2001 when he won the Hart trophy and Ted Lindsay award?
Yzerman did everything effectively by himself.
Lemieux had Rob Brown, who despite tailing off and having a forgettable career scored at 1.00 PPG that season. He also had Dan Quinn and Paul Coffey. Gretzky had Bernie Nicholls and Luc Robitaille, who played on the second line at even strength and posted some amazing numbers, as well as playing with Gretzky on the PP. Steve Duchesne was another significant player in LA.
Yzerman outscored Gretzky at even strength. If Yzerman had the secondary weapons Lemieux or especially Gretzky had, do you think Yzerman might have reached their totals? Yzerman also received (1-1-0) for the Selke and was double-shifted on Detroit's primary checking line. Not something that happened with Gretzky or Lemieux; they spent extra time out with scoring lines.
I'd actually say Sakic was better the previous season, when he scored 81 points in 60 games, 58 of them at even strength. The big difference in his total PPG output between the two seasons was driven by a healthy Forsberg in 2000-01 (as opposed to Forsberg playing only 49 games).
The biggest question I have always had about this comparison, in so far as the fact that people love to glue the two players back to back in rankings, is this one: "What would Joe Sakic's peak/prime/career have looked like if he had played it without Peter Forsberg?"
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
So you don't think Yzerman scores another 13 points if he has Bernie Nicholls on his right side on the PP instead of Paul MacLean?
You actually seriously believe that?
Not to mention the difference between Steve Duchesne and Steve Chiasson at the time.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I don't believe that anything in this particular season could be a guarantee of more points for him. Everything went right for him, and if I was am Yzerman apologist, I wouldn't start trying to replay that season under different circumstances to see what would happen. As you already showed, that year was a massive outlier for him, and he didn't approach that again.
Gretzky averaged 2.17 PPG in the three seasons before and after that year. Lemieux averaged 1.94. Yzerman averaged 1.32. No, he was never as outstanding as them. In a year where absolutely everything went right... he was fairly close. That's it.
Guess putting up the 2nd best season (and capping it with a Hart+Pearson) of the 00s is moot, Conn Smythe with 18 goals and 34 points in 22 playoff games, also moot.
Yzerman was right with Lemieux at even strength in 87-88 also, if you'll take a glance at the table I posted. And in 89-90 there was a clear separation between Yzerman and Messier, although Yzerman was no longer keeping pace with Lemieux. However, if you start in 91-92 and continue until 98-99, Yzerman played 23 more games than Gretzky while outscoring him at even strength by 19 points and garnering a Selke nomination.
No, I said Lemieux and Gretzky both had significant help while Yzerman did not. Furthermore, the biggest factor in Lemieux outscoring Yzerman was the PP, and Paul Coffey was the key teammate there, not Brown. Gretzky obviously had Nicholls and Robitaille.
I can believe that Yzerman might not have made up the 44-point gap to Lemeux with a better RW and Coffey on defense.
But I find the idea that he couldn't have scored 13 more points if he had Luc Robitaille, Bernie Nicholls, and Steve Duchesne in place of the crew he had is just silly.
