Yzerman vs Sakic
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quoipourquoi
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Dennis Bonvie
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Lafleurs Guy
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Yzerman at his best was better than any player I've ever seen other than Lemieux and Gretz. Terrible teams and he still puts up 155 points. The guy was absolutely ridiculous.
He slowed down later on and had some injuries but when he was on he could win games by himself. Loved Joe Sakic too but Yzerman was just so awesome.
Sakic was more dominant later in his career and probably has better stats overall but I'll take Yzerman any day.
He slowed down later on and had some injuries but when he was on he could win games by himself. Loved Joe Sakic too but Yzerman was just so awesome.
Sakic was more dominant later in his career and probably has better stats overall but I'll take Yzerman any day.
spacemunky
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jigglysquishy
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Top 10 finishes in points for reference sake
Sakic - 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 7 9, 10
Yzerman - 3, 3, 4, 7, 10
Sakic - 3x 1st AS
Yzerman - 1x 1st AS
Sakic - Hart, Pearson, Smythe
Yzerman - Pearson, Smythe
Now, it looks like Sakic comes on top, but Yzerman did have to deal with a prime Gretzky and Lemieux. Though Sakic did have to compete with a prime Jagr and Forsberg.
Sakic - 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 7 9, 10
Yzerman - 3, 3, 4, 7, 10
Sakic - 3x 1st AS
Yzerman - 1x 1st AS
Sakic - Hart, Pearson, Smythe
Yzerman - Pearson, Smythe
Now, it looks like Sakic comes on top, but Yzerman did have to deal with a prime Gretzky and Lemieux. Though Sakic did have to compete with a prime Jagr and Forsberg.
charliolemieux
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Yzerman also had a Selke.
Sakic got points from prime Forsberg. Yzerman did not share that luck with Gretzky or Lemieux.
I'm on the fence on this one. My opinion changes everytime i'm asked this question. I think Sakic undoubtedly has the better career, but for me I have to go with Yzerman, at his peak he was behind Gretzky and Lemieux, nobody else. When it's somewhat close, I prefer who I think was the better player overall and to me I would pick a prime Yzerman 10 times out of 10 in that category.
Well.... Wayne and Mario exceeded 155 points 3 more times after the 88-89 season... so it was done again.
Then they have plenty of 155+ point seasons from 88-89 and before too.
BraveCanadian
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Hockey Outsider
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I think you're overstating the impact that Forsberg had on Sakic.
Out of Sakic's ten seasons as a top ten scorer, four of them occured without Forsberg (Forsberg wasn't in the NHL in 1990 or 1991, he was injured the entire regular season in 2002, and was on another team in 2007). Forsberg also missed more than half of the 2004 season (he was easily better than Sakic on a per-game basis that year, but only played 39 games).
In three of the other seasons, Sakic was clearly superior to Forsberg. He outscored Forsberg by 24% in 1995 (playing the same number of games), 59% in in 2000 (30% on a per-game basis) and 33% in 2001 (18% on a per game basis). I'm not saying that having Forsberg didn't help, but when Sakic was better offensively by such a wide margin, it's difficult to attribute his success to another player.
Forsberg was close to Sakic in only two of #19's seasons as a top ten scorer (1996, when Sakic finished slightly ahead playing the same number of games, and 1999 when Forsberg outscored Sakic by 1 point).
Out of Sakic's ten seasons as a top ten scorer, four of them occured without Forsberg (Forsberg wasn't in the NHL in 1990 or 1991, he was injured the entire regular season in 2002, and was on another team in 2007). Forsberg also missed more than half of the 2004 season (he was easily better than Sakic on a per-game basis that year, but only played 39 games).
In three of the other seasons, Sakic was clearly superior to Forsberg. He outscored Forsberg by 24% in 1995 (playing the same number of games), 59% in in 2000 (30% on a per-game basis) and 33% in 2001 (18% on a per game basis). I'm not saying that having Forsberg didn't help, but when Sakic was better offensively by such a wide margin, it's difficult to attribute his success to another player.
Forsberg was close to Sakic in only two of #19's seasons as a top ten scorer (1996, when Sakic finished slightly ahead playing the same number of games, and 1999 when Forsberg outscored Sakic by 1 point).
Hockey Outsider
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If you remove Gretzky and Lemieux (and make reasonable assumptions about their linemates), here's how Sakic and Yzerman would have finished in the scoring race:
Sakic
- 1990: 6th (I assume Coffey loses at least 2 points not playing with Lemieux; Nicholls saw his scoring rate drop from 1.60 ppg in LA vs 1.16 in NY so I assume Sakic would make up the 10 point difference had Nicholls not played most of the season with Gretzky)
- 1991: 4th (I assume Cullen loses at least 2 points not playing most of the year with Lemieux, corroborating by a steep decrease in his scoring rate after being traded mid-year)
- 1992: NR (one could make some generous assumptions to get Sakic into 10th place but I won't do that)
- 1995: 4th
- 1996: 2nd (I'm assuming that Jagr wins the Art Ross even without Lemieux; he was on pace for exactly 120 points per 82 game in 1995 without #66, which gives him the Art Ross over Sakic due to winning the tie-breaker)
- 1999: 5th
- 2000: 8th
- 2001: 1st (it's well documented that Jagr sharply increased his production in late December when Lemieux returned; not having Le Magnifique come back would have easily cost Jagr 4 points)
- 2002: 5th
- 2004: 2nd
- 2006: 6th
Yzerman
- 1986: 8th (let's be generous and assume Yzerman surpasses both Kurri and Messier)
- 1987: 9th (let's again assume Yzerman passes Messier)
- 1989: 1st
- 1990: 2nd
- 1991: 5th (see my discussion re 1991 above, I assume Cullen loses enough points to fall behind Yzerman as well, who was only 1 point behind Sakic that year)
- 1992: 3rd (assuming Stevens loses at least 21 points without Lemieux and Robitalle loses at least 5 points without Gretzky)
- 1993: 3rd
- 1997: 10th (I'm removing Gretzky even though it's clear he's way past his prime, but I'm trying to be consistent; I'm also assuming Francis loses at least 6 points without Lemieux)
- 2000: 10th
Their "adjusted" finishes are:
Sakic - 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8
Yzerman - 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 10
It's closer than the unadjusted numbers show, but Sakic is still ahead.
To make it clear - the purpose of this post is to compare their ranking in the scoring race, "adjusted" for the presence of Gretzky, Lemieux and their linemates. It is not intended to take other factors (defense, playoffs, awards, etc) into account.
If you disagree with my assumptions let me know - trying to be as transparent as possible.
Sakic
- 1990: 6th (I assume Coffey loses at least 2 points not playing with Lemieux; Nicholls saw his scoring rate drop from 1.60 ppg in LA vs 1.16 in NY so I assume Sakic would make up the 10 point difference had Nicholls not played most of the season with Gretzky)
- 1991: 4th (I assume Cullen loses at least 2 points not playing most of the year with Lemieux, corroborating by a steep decrease in his scoring rate after being traded mid-year)
- 1992: NR (one could make some generous assumptions to get Sakic into 10th place but I won't do that)
- 1995: 4th
- 1996: 2nd (I'm assuming that Jagr wins the Art Ross even without Lemieux; he was on pace for exactly 120 points per 82 game in 1995 without #66, which gives him the Art Ross over Sakic due to winning the tie-breaker)
- 1999: 5th
- 2000: 8th
- 2001: 1st (it's well documented that Jagr sharply increased his production in late December when Lemieux returned; not having Le Magnifique come back would have easily cost Jagr 4 points)
- 2002: 5th
- 2004: 2nd
- 2006: 6th
Yzerman
- 1986: 8th (let's be generous and assume Yzerman surpasses both Kurri and Messier)
- 1987: 9th (let's again assume Yzerman passes Messier)
- 1989: 1st
- 1990: 2nd
- 1991: 5th (see my discussion re 1991 above, I assume Cullen loses enough points to fall behind Yzerman as well, who was only 1 point behind Sakic that year)
- 1992: 3rd (assuming Stevens loses at least 21 points without Lemieux and Robitalle loses at least 5 points without Gretzky)
- 1993: 3rd
- 1997: 10th (I'm removing Gretzky even though it's clear he's way past his prime, but I'm trying to be consistent; I'm also assuming Francis loses at least 6 points without Lemieux)
- 2000: 10th
Their "adjusted" finishes are:
Sakic - 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8
Yzerman - 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 10
It's closer than the unadjusted numbers show, but Sakic is still ahead.
To make it clear - the purpose of this post is to compare their ranking in the scoring race, "adjusted" for the presence of Gretzky, Lemieux and their linemates. It is not intended to take other factors (defense, playoffs, awards, etc) into account.
If you disagree with my assumptions let me know - trying to be as transparent as possible.
seventieslord
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tony d
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JaysCyYoung
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Sakic by an absolute hair. The fact that he had tremendous longevity and durability is the deciding factor for me, including arguably the most impressive season by a near forty year-old in league history (100 points in 2006-07).
They were both accomplished defensive players and Yzerman has the Selke from 2000, in addition to the best individual season between the two (1989) so I can see why some people would choose him. You'd be hard-pressed to find two more comparable players however.
They were both accomplished defensive players and Yzerman has the Selke from 2000, in addition to the best individual season between the two (1989) so I can see why some people would choose him. You'd be hard-pressed to find two more comparable players however.
Lafleurs Guy
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I remember '88 when Yzerman had truly arrived. He was putting up ridiculous numbers and then got hurt. The following season he gets 150+ points playing with Gerrard Gallant and guys like Shawn Burr.
I know folks have some kind of formula to try to normalize things but I don't see how you can do it. I know it sounds strange to hear it now but without Yzerman those Detroit clubs were like AHL teams. The year he puts up 155 the Wings are an 80 point team for Pete's sake in the worst Division in hockey. If the guy had even half decent linemates he probably beats Gretz for the scoring title in 1990. Yzerman had injuries that slowed him down later on but he was absolutely incredible in the late 80s early 90s. From '88 to '94 the guy was the best player in the world not named Lemieux or Gretz.
Sakic was awesome too and as bad as the clubs he played for were he still had more to work with than Yzerman did. I think he has Yzerman on the longevity factor and how much weight people want to give on that is up to them.
Numbers don't always tell the story. Folks who look back on Malkin and Crosby might conclude that Malkin was the better player as he won the Conn Smythe and has probably around as many scoring titles as Sid does. They might even say: He's better in the playoffs... case closed. But we all know that's not the case. Crosby easily could've won that trophy but its not the way history will be written.
Sakic vs Yzerman is a debate that will go on forever. Its not surprising in the least that the poll is a dead heat and keeps going back and forth. That's the way it should be. Both guys were awesome.
Yzerman for me though.
I know folks have some kind of formula to try to normalize things but I don't see how you can do it. I know it sounds strange to hear it now but without Yzerman those Detroit clubs were like AHL teams. The year he puts up 155 the Wings are an 80 point team for Pete's sake in the worst Division in hockey. If the guy had even half decent linemates he probably beats Gretz for the scoring title in 1990. Yzerman had injuries that slowed him down later on but he was absolutely incredible in the late 80s early 90s. From '88 to '94 the guy was the best player in the world not named Lemieux or Gretz.
Sakic was awesome too and as bad as the clubs he played for were he still had more to work with than Yzerman did. I think he has Yzerman on the longevity factor and how much weight people want to give on that is up to them.
Numbers don't always tell the story. Folks who look back on Malkin and Crosby might conclude that Malkin was the better player as he won the Conn Smythe and has probably around as many scoring titles as Sid does. They might even say: He's better in the playoffs... case closed. But we all know that's not the case. Crosby easily could've won that trophy but its not the way history will be written.
Sakic vs Yzerman is a debate that will go on forever. Its not surprising in the least that the poll is a dead heat and keeps going back and forth. That's the way it should be. Both guys were awesome.
Yzerman for me though.
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soooooo close, they're equals as NHL palyers go.
Skill wise I think Sakic's snipe is the best tool out of the two combined, so I went with Sakic.
bonus points to sakic for playing on guy lafluer's line early in his career...and putting up great #'s when Bourque was do or die on his cup run.
Skill wise I think Sakic's snipe is the best tool out of the two combined, so I went with Sakic.
bonus points to sakic for playing on guy lafluer's line early in his career...and putting up great #'s when Bourque was do or die on his cup run.
Lafleurs Guy
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http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game
Just figured I'd put this in there. It's cherrypicked for the years I referred to above. I didn't do it for Sakic but it wouldn't surprise me if there were similar results for him at some point.
The gap between Yzerman and the next closest player over that time period is pretty significant. Selanne and Lindros don't count as they only have something like 130 games each and from there it goes to Lafontaine.
1. Lemieux as expected puts up a mind boggling average of 180 points per season
2. Gretz averages 1.9 or 152 points a season.
3. Yzerman's 1.55 translates to 124 points per game over that time period.
4. Lafontaine (in close to 100 less games) is next averaging at 1.37 or 109 point average.
5. Adam Oates is right there with Lafontaine at 1.37 and the 109 point average. He's probably closest to Yzerman as he plays almost the same number of games but has 100 less points.
If we do it from '85 to '95 Gretz and Mario are essentially tied at 2 points a game average.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game
After that it's Yzerman at 1.37 or 110 points per 80 game season.
Then its Messier and Coffey (teammates with each other and Gretzky) tied at 1.3 or 104 points each.
If Mario and Lemieux aren't in the league, we're looking at Yzerman as the best scorer of the era. And he does it mostly with scrubs.
Just figured I'd put this in there. It's cherrypicked for the years I referred to above. I didn't do it for Sakic but it wouldn't surprise me if there were similar results for him at some point.
The gap between Yzerman and the next closest player over that time period is pretty significant. Selanne and Lindros don't count as they only have something like 130 games each and from there it goes to Lafontaine.
1. Lemieux as expected puts up a mind boggling average of 180 points per season
2. Gretz averages 1.9 or 152 points a season.
3. Yzerman's 1.55 translates to 124 points per game over that time period.
4. Lafontaine (in close to 100 less games) is next averaging at 1.37 or 109 point average.
5. Adam Oates is right there with Lafontaine at 1.37 and the 109 point average. He's probably closest to Yzerman as he plays almost the same number of games but has 100 less points.
If we do it from '85 to '95 Gretz and Mario are essentially tied at 2 points a game average.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game
After that it's Yzerman at 1.37 or 110 points per 80 game season.
Then its Messier and Coffey (teammates with each other and Gretzky) tied at 1.3 or 104 points each.
If Mario and Lemieux aren't in the league, we're looking at Yzerman as the best scorer of the era. And he does it mostly with scrubs.
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I remember in the late 80's in some games yzerman would be centering two different lines. Stat analysis can tell you who to look at but you really need to eyeball test these comparisons, until we get ice time numbers with any kind of reliability.
Lafleurs Guy
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Even then, how can you do it? I mean seriously how do you balance out the linemates?
