Your theory of the Sharks slow downturn

SnarkAttack

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What happened is that DW continually misdiagnosed the team's issues. For example this year we had a huge hole on defense, and nothing was done during the offseason. Our bottom 6 was atrocious to begin the season and they frankly got lucky that Karlsson did anything and that Sheppard was viable as a 3C. Our goaltending continues to be mediocre, and now we just don't have the pieces to cover it up anymore.

The last things we needed were John Scott AND Mike Brown.
 

Pinkfloyd

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What happened is that DW continually misdiagnosed the team's issues. For example this year we had a huge hole on defense, and nothing was done during the offseason. Our bottom 6 was atrocious to begin the season and they frankly got lucky that Karlsson did anything and that Sheppard was viable as a 3C. Our goaltending continues to be mediocre, and now we just don't have the pieces to cover it up anymore.

The last things we needed were John Scott AND Mike Brown.

The blue line being an issue is a theme during the DW tenure. Certainly there are other things involved but that has pretty much stuck with the team even before he was GM.
 

PattyLafontaine

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Apr 5, 2006
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The blue line being an issue is a theme during the DW tenure. Certainly there are other things involved but that has pretty much stuck with the team even before he was GM.

Which is crazy when your GM was an all-star D man. Blue line has constantly been an issue. The main issue is never having the big #1 two way D man, or not having a legit PMD (save for Boyle) or having a slap shot specialist a la Sourray Weber etc.

My other big issue has been the failure to play rookies on the 4th line so they can get experience grinding instead of overpaying 4th line scrubs with terrible contracts.
 

magic school bus

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Which is crazy when your GM was an all-star D man. Blue line has constantly been an issue. The main issue is never having the big #1 two way D man, or not having a legit PMD (save for Boyle) or having a slap shot specialist a la Sourray Weber etc.

My other big issue has been the failure to play rookies on the 4th line so they can get experience grinding instead of overpaying 4th line scrubs with terrible contracts.

AND the defense coach is a Hall of Famer. It's really a headscratcher
 

Kcoyote3

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I don't think it is. I think their views on the personnel needed for the position are antiquated based on the people repeatedly brought in.

Well for awhile there the Sharks played an overall solid defensive system. We were consistently in the top 10 in GA. I think they thought it was fine. Now that the core got even weaker and the goaltending took a nosedive, the whole system fell apart.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Well for awhile there the Sharks played an overall solid defensive system. We were consistently in the top 10 in GA. I think they thought it was fine. Now that the core got even weaker and the goaltending took a nosedive, the whole system fell apart.

There were certainly times where it was good enough to get through the regular season. The system also had enough overall talent to cover for the fact that the blue line was never really that good top to bottom and not really balanced out.
 

OrrNumber4

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I don't think it is. I think their views on the personnel needed for the position are antiquated based on the people repeatedly brought in.

I think that DW simply tried and failed to land that top-dman. He went after Niedermayer, Pronger, Chara, Weber...and he just couldn't land them. He settled for players like Boyle and Blake...and I think he thought he had a star defenseman in Burns.

This isn't an excuse...he didn't manage to get those guys, and it is on him. But it seems clear that he knew what the team needed.
 

Gilligans Island

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I think that DW simply tried and failed to land that top-dman. He went after Niedermayer, Pronger, Chara, Weber...and he just couldn't land them. He settled for players like Boyle and Blake...and I think he thought he had a star defenseman in Burns.

This isn't an excuse...he didn't manage to get those guys, and it is on him. But it seems clear that he knew what the team needed.

I agree and disagree. It is hard to land the #1, and we all get the benefit of hindsight to see that he should have paid the price for Pronger. Those Weber rumors and sighting were fantastic to follow but he was a long shot.

Where I disagree is with the 3/4/5 dmen roles. DW had chances to land Lydman or Mitchell as UFAs but passed. I don't see why he couldn't have matched the Canes offer for Sekera. He gave up on Ehrhoff and the return was pathetic.

I agree with PF in that he really misjudges (or overvalue) the vet, stay-at-home dman with the Hannan, White, Wallin.

Anyhow, these moves are in the past. Nothing can undo them now.
 

Pinkfloyd

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I think that DW simply tried and failed to land that top-dman. He went after Niedermayer, Pronger, Chara, Weber...and he just couldn't land them. He settled for players like Boyle and Blake...and I think he thought he had a star defenseman in Burns.

This isn't an excuse...he didn't manage to get those guys, and it is on him. But it seems clear that he knew what the team needed.

I don't blame him for missing out on top guys. Those aren't easy to snag but it's something that the team can overcome with solid acquisitions throughout the blue line and they just don't see that.
 

WantonAbandon

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Personally I think it is very very simple. The Sharks immediately got worse right after 2011 when they traded Setoguchi, Heatley and Coyle.

Eventually Ryane Clowe was lost as well and three top six forwards were gone. None of these top six have been replaced. NONE.

In 2011, Pavelski and Couture were already putting up 50 point seasons. At this point their elevated point totals are simply replacing the decling point totals of Thornton and Marleau.

When Setoguchi and Heatley were traded the Sharks lost over 100 combined points between the two. Add Clowe and that is over 150 points.

Havlat and Galiardi never panned out and so far the BEST replacement was surprisingly Burns with his 48 points in 2014, but that only replaces one player.

Combine Hertl, Wingels and Nieto today. They don't even crack 100 together. A drop of that magnitude significantly hurt the Sharks offensively and forced them to rely on an already thin defense which has only gotten worse.

Where do they go from here? Well I only hope these young guns and future Dmen pan out otherwise it's going to be a long couple of years.

They turned over half the blue line without proven replacements. This had a far more dramatic effect
 

Obsessed Sharks Fan

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I bet most people who have been using this forum for 8+ years would agree as well.

I just checked out of curiosity.I joined in Aug 2006. sweet. i was on the sharks website message board long before HFBoards though, but they did the site redesign in 2009 and membership data didn't transfer over.

Cheechoo and Thornton 2005-2006. 5 hat tricks for cheech, three against Anaheim alone. absolutely glorious time to be a sharks fan.
 

magic school bus

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I don't think it is. I think their views on the personnel needed for the position are antiquated based on the people repeatedly brought in.

Yeah, but a lot of hockey people are the same, and i don't think i've quite seen one ignore one end of the ice in favor of "grit" and safe play as much as the Sharks (maybe Philadelphia is the only team worse).
 

Sharksrule04

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The blue line being an issue is a theme during the DW tenure. Certainly there are other things involved but that has pretty much stuck with the team even before he was GM.

That's because there aren't a ton of great d-men in the league. How many teams have truly had better D-corps than us in his tenure. We had top 5 D-corps a couple of those seasons. How many teams consistently have great defensemen? Rangers? Kings? Blackhawks? Bruins?
 

Beaviz81

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That's because there aren't a ton of great d-men in the league. How many teams have truly had better D-corps than us in his tenure. We had top 5 D-corps a couple of those seasons. How many teams consistently have great defensemen? Rangers? Kings? Blackhawks? Bruins?

The Sharks has had what? The defense and team toughness has always been an issue with the Sharks.
 

magic school bus

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That's because there aren't a ton of great d-men in the league. How many teams have truly had better D-corps than us in his tenure. We had top 5 D-corps a couple of those seasons. How many teams consistently have great defensemen? Rangers? Kings? Blackhawks? Bruins?

What? we had a top defense core maybe once.
 

Pinkfloyd

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That's because there aren't a ton of great d-men in the league. How many teams have truly had better D-corps than us in his tenure. We had top 5 D-corps a couple of those seasons. How many teams consistently have great defensemen? Rangers? Kings? Blackhawks? Bruins?

You don't need a ton of great d-men. You can make it worth with d-men that aren't great if they have the right skill sets that are complimented by partners with the right skill sets. And even just four teams having consistently great d-men is enough to kill Cup hopes. But the Sharks have never had a blue line that was one of the best. They were pretty close in 2008-09 but that was the only year it came close.
 

Sharksrule04

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The Sharks has had what? The defense and team toughness has always been an issue with the Sharks.

That season when we had Ehrhoff, Boyle, Blake, Vlasic, Murray as our top 5, we were one of the best defenses in the league offensively and defensively. Yes we've also had some weak defenses since DW as well, but top d-men don't grow on trees. Like I said in my previous email how many teams have consistently had top d-men 1 through 6?
 

Pinkfloyd

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That season when we had Ehrhoff, Boyle, Blake, Vlasic, Murray as our top 5, we were one of the best defenses in the league offensively and defensively. Yes we've also had some weak defenses since DW as well, but top d-men don't grow on trees. Like I said in my previous email how many teams have consistently had top d-men 1 through 6?

One season in over a decade for the GM is not good enough, imo. You can make all the excuses in the world you want but it's not good enough. Boyle and Blake weren't top d-men when they came here. Boyle was top offensively but was coming up short defensively. Vlasic hadn't developed into a top defensive d-man at that point. But before and after that, it only got worse. If you can't sign or trade for them, you better be able to draft and develop them or it's going to come back to bite you and it has.
 

thasanjoseshawksdood*

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Making the playoffs for 10 years and never being able to go all the way I feel like has taken its toll on the team. Its kind of like gooabiustjogaj majiguah lookie dooka hooga boogie you know?
 

oyster

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In response to OP: Seto could only produce with top line minutes on Jumbo's wing. Most legit NHL players could too. Seto can't even stay in the league now. DW got assets for a player on the decline. Heatley was NOT a top 6 forward by the end of his time as a shark. he was a 3rd line PP specialist and DW did absolutely the right thing getting his contract off the books when he did because we needed the cap space to re-sign Couture and Pavs. Same with Clowe and Murray who lost too much of a step and couldn't keep up. Look at both of them now. Don't ignore that both were already doing poorly in their last days in teal. Handzus also mercifully shipped for picks. My point here is DW always managed to get something for players that are on their way to obsolescence. That counts for something. I agree that DW however often misdiagnoses the team's needs.

Hertl's downturn is worth serious consideration. Some of that is due to reduced ice time and not playing with top linemates, but he's still down. This merits further consideration. Right now Nieto has the exact same amount of pts and games played as he did last season. I don't know why anyone expected 60pt seasons from him, he's just not that player. If you're currently disappointed with Nieto your expectations were unrealistic.

Coyle may still have some untapped potential, but Tommy Wingels has produced more. Coyle wouldn't save this team and would likely be playing 3rd line minutes over who?

You made no mention of defense and that's where the Sharks have taken a larger step back. Average goaltending behind worse D compounds the problem. The PK is also back in the toilet (LR reduced coaching role related?). The outlook for the next few years isn't great short of something drastic happening, but hopefully a high draft in a good class this year can help refill the prospect pool. We're not in Edmonton, we'll be alright. Hopefully we get treated to an underdog playoff run or two in the meantime.

As far as playoff failures go I think a lot of that is on TMac and the core players. TMac is definitely a smart player but it's also very clearly his way or the highway. His stubbornness, goalie grinding, and inability to adapt to the opposition in a series hurts. As for the core Joe is an amazing player and clear HHoF'er, but he's predictable as can be and the PP going 0-16 last year was telling. One critical flaw of this team has always been in the postseason that if you shut Joe down, you shut the PP down. If the PP dies and the PK stinks as it often does, you lose the special teams battle every series.
 

Beaviz81

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Mar 8, 2015
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That season when we had Ehrhoff, Boyle, Blake, Vlasic, Murray as our top 5, we were one of the best defenses in the league offensively and defensively. Yes we've also had some weak defenses since DW as well, but top d-men don't grow on trees. Like I said in my previous email how many teams have consistently had top d-men 1 through 6?

With Huskins as number seven? Damn how bad he looked in the playoffs. It was also the only time the bottom six lead by Nichol was any effective, then you had a team to talk about.
 

Le Rosbeef

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Jul 27, 2007
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Ageing core is not as impactful as it used to be. And we're stuck with them.

Add to that, this year the defense is not as good, there's been a substantial decline in goaltending and our PK is largely ineffective.
 

Gene Parmesan

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Jul 23, 2009
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I agree and disagree. It is hard to land the #1, and we all get the benefit of hindsight to see that he should have paid the price for Pronger. Those Weber rumors and sighting were fantastic to follow but he was a long shot.

Where I disagree is with the 3/4/5 dmen roles. DW had chances to land Lydman or Mitchell as UFAs but passed. I don't see why he couldn't have matched the Canes offer for Sekera. He gave up on Ehrhoff and the return was pathetic.

I agree with PF in that he really misjudges (or overvalue) the vet, stay-at-home dman with the Hannan, White, Wallin.

Anyhow, these moves are in the past. Nothing can undo them now.

He was in on Mitchell. The Kings offered an extra year.
 

Wombley

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Nov 29, 2009
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What happened is that DW continually misdiagnosed the team's issues. For example this year we had a huge hole on defense, and nothing was done during the offseason. Our bottom 6 was atrocious to begin the season and they frankly got lucky that Karlsson did anything and that Sheppard was viable as a 3C. Our goaltending continues to be mediocre, and now we just don't have the pieces to cover it up anymore.

The last things we needed were John Scott AND Mike Brown.

The Sharks were 7-1, scoring 31 goals and giving up 15 with Mike Brown in the lineup.
5-1 with both John Scott and Mike Brown in the lineup.
:yo:
 

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