VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Did you watch him play?
Never did his jersey ever have a second 'e'?
(He was only in the NHL for 18 seasons.)
Defiant revisionist history? Or a youthful mistake?
Your All-Time NHL Team
- Thread starter Professor What
- Start date
Never did his jersey ever have a second 'e'?
(He was only in the NHL for 18 seasons.)
Defiant revisionist history? Or a youthful mistake?
BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
- 30,888
- 13,682
Going with some peculiar choices:
Bobby Hull - Jean Béliveau (C) - Gordie Howe
Mario Lemieux - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Jari Kurri
Mark Messier (A) - Henri Richard - Maurice Richard
Bob Gainey - Frank Nighbor - Bobby Clarke
Serge Savard - Bobby Orr
Denis Potvin (A) - Doug Harvey
Larry Robinson - Tim Horton
Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Spares: Ted Kennedy, Guy Lafleur, Sidney Crosby, Raymond Bourque
This is as close as it gets if the life of my entire family (or even the whole world) was on the line and I had to choose a lineup against an extraterrestrial race in a 7 game hockey series.
Tim Horton over Chris Chelios was based almost entirely on his work against Gordie Howe, which I see as a more solid proof of his "in vaccuum" value in a playoff format than anything Chelios ever did.
I decided to stack the 4th line with the greatest defensive forwards of all-time, regardless of position.
Clarke and Messier are included in the lineup at wing but they might play center too. Clarke's willingness to go into abnormal psychopathic behavior in order to win was a point in his favor, even if I detest the behavior and find it immoral. But when life is on the line... (and there you have a potential answer for why psychopathy thrives and survives in the gene pool).
Absolutely Henri 100% makes the team regardless of the myriad of other quality (and better) centers available. Simply Henri is the best RHS center playoff performer ever, with the possible exception of Mario Lemieux (who doesn't fill the same role anyway) and Ted Kennedy, who I included in my spares. I want both Richard brothers on that team; they hated to lose to an extreme degree and would do the necessary to win. The Richard brothers with Messier is a nightmare of a third line.
Serge Savard is the defensive defenseman I'd trust the most in big games, ever, except Doug Harvey. This is why he gets the primetime role of partnering with Bobby Orr.
I put Kurri in there because of his chemistry with Wayne and because he's one of the rare defensive RWer. However I'm considering putting Crosby in there; would be an intriguing mix. If I need a goal, Maurice gets bumped up with Wayne and Mario.
Every single player on that team is known as a great playoff performer, with perhaps only Bobby Hull having a moderate question mark about his playoff legacy (more of a team thing though).
I'll also add the caveat that I'm increasingly suspicious of just stacking up the very best superstars all the way down the lineup unless their style fit for the role. Bourque on a 3rd pairing? Meh. I rather have him as a spare ready to jump in in a primordial role if need be, and have my towers of strenght in Robinson and Horton on the 3rd pairing playing second fiddle to the Orr and Harvey pairs.
Bobby Hull - Jean Béliveau (C) - Gordie Howe
Mario Lemieux - Wayne Gretzky (A) - Jari Kurri
Mark Messier (A) - Henri Richard - Maurice Richard
Bob Gainey - Frank Nighbor - Bobby Clarke
Serge Savard - Bobby Orr
Denis Potvin (A) - Doug Harvey
Larry Robinson - Tim Horton
Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Spares: Ted Kennedy, Guy Lafleur, Sidney Crosby, Raymond Bourque
This is as close as it gets if the life of my entire family (or even the whole world) was on the line and I had to choose a lineup against an extraterrestrial race in a 7 game hockey series.
Tim Horton over Chris Chelios was based almost entirely on his work against Gordie Howe, which I see as a more solid proof of his "in vaccuum" value in a playoff format than anything Chelios ever did.
I decided to stack the 4th line with the greatest defensive forwards of all-time, regardless of position.
Clarke and Messier are included in the lineup at wing but they might play center too. Clarke's willingness to go into abnormal psychopathic behavior in order to win was a point in his favor, even if I detest the behavior and find it immoral. But when life is on the line... (and there you have a potential answer for why psychopathy thrives and survives in the gene pool).
Absolutely Henri 100% makes the team regardless of the myriad of other quality (and better) centers available. Simply Henri is the best RHS center playoff performer ever, with the possible exception of Mario Lemieux (who doesn't fill the same role anyway) and Ted Kennedy, who I included in my spares. I want both Richard brothers on that team; they hated to lose to an extreme degree and would do the necessary to win. The Richard brothers with Messier is a nightmare of a third line.
Serge Savard is the defensive defenseman I'd trust the most in big games, ever, except Doug Harvey. This is why he gets the primetime role of partnering with Bobby Orr.
I put Kurri in there because of his chemistry with Wayne and because he's one of the rare defensive RWer. However I'm considering putting Crosby in there; would be an intriguing mix. If I need a goal, Maurice gets bumped up with Wayne and Mario.
Every single player on that team is known as a great playoff performer, with perhaps only Bobby Hull having a moderate question mark about his playoff legacy (more of a team thing though).
I'll also add the caveat that I'm increasingly suspicious of just stacking up the very best superstars all the way down the lineup unless their style fit for the role. Bourque on a 3rd pairing? Meh. I rather have him as a spare ready to jump in in a primordial role if need be, and have my towers of strenght in Robinson and Horton on the 3rd pairing playing second fiddle to the Orr and Harvey pairs.
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Savard in the top pairing but Bourque doesn't make the cut, remains undressed?
Maybe for 10 seconds of a pp. Then cooler heads should prevail and he dresses.
Ray's skating, stickhandling, shot and decision making are on another level compared to Savard.
The Panther
Registered User
Here's mine!:
Forwards
18-20 min. - E. Tikkanen (LW) - W. Gretzky (C) - J. Kurri (RW)
Proven line from 1986-87 and 1987-88. All three are super-clutch. Kurri and Tikkanen was both superb penalty killers, though not needed as such (see "fourth line", below). Tikkanen does the dirty work in the corners and drives opponents crazy. Need to have two Finns so Kurri can partially translate 'Tikkanese'. Gretz & Kurri are the greatest duo in history, once combining for 144 goals together in one season (180 incl. playoffs).
18-20 min. - T. Lindsay (LW) - M. Lemieux (C) - G. Howe (RW)
Two legendary linemates plus super-Mario. I think this can work. Mario doesn't so much need a sniper as much as he needs guys who (a) help create space for him and (b) will take off the heads of anyone who challenges him. He won't get injured so much with those two alongside him. Lindsay is kind of small by today's standards, but as long as the opponents are drawn from a broad section of League history, we're good. Lindsay lives in the corners on this line. (If Lindsay is too small or if I'm in a different mood, I might substitute Forsberg or Crosby for him.)
18-20 min. - A. Ovechkin (LW) - M. Messier (C) - C. McDavid (RW)
The "blow-you-away" line. The collective speed and power of this trio leaves opponents banged-up, gassed, and prone on the ice. (McDavid is thus the NHL's first scoring-champion "third liner".)
2-6 min. - G. Carbonneau (LW) - B. Clarke (C) - P. Datsyuk (RW)
This line kills penalties, and each can fill-in for the above 9 if someone is injured. All three can take face-offs. If you need to take out an opponent with extreme prejudice, Clarke is there. Datsyuk can chat to Ovechkin in Russian. And if we're doing shoot-outs, Datsyuk is the man.
Defence
B. Orr (LD) - D. Harvey (RD)
D. Potvin (LD) - V. Konstantinov (RD)
C. Pronger (LD) - A. MacInnis (RD)
I'm not so sure about Harvey as Orr's partner -- both being lefties -- but based on the footage I've seen, Harvey was adept at coming up the ice from the right side, and as well as defending there. (In any case, he can stay back and give the puck to Orr!) Konstantinov is there because (a) I liked his style, (b) we need a bruiser, and (c) we need more righties (ever notice how many elite Dmen are left-handed?). I'm putting Pronger here over guys like Bourque and Lidstrom because I feel he'd work better in this all-star-team kind of situation, and because I want more tough guys. MacInnis is basically there because I want another right-handed D, but also can you imagine a power-play with Orr & MacInnis firing bombs??
Goalies
D. Hašek
J. Plante
All goalies are kind of weird personality-types, and these two are no exception, but they're my top choices. Hašek is simply the best ever at the NHL level (and maybe at the Olympics too). Plante seems so exceptional in many ways, and I love how he was great for so long, through two or three different eras.
Of course, it pains me to leave off a bunch of the greatest players of all time (which I've done), but I think this line-up of all these guys in their primes would be the ideal team. We'd have to watch out for Messier and Clarke not going over-board with the rough stuff, and, as stated above, I might substitute Forsberg (or Crosby... but honestly I prefer Forsberg) for Ted Lindsay at left-wing.
There are a few guys who don't make it here because I think they're too prima donna-ish to work on an all-star team with egos necessarily parked (thinking of P. Roy and J. Jagr).
Forwards
18-20 min. - E. Tikkanen (LW) - W. Gretzky (C) - J. Kurri (RW)
Proven line from 1986-87 and 1987-88. All three are super-clutch. Kurri and Tikkanen was both superb penalty killers, though not needed as such (see "fourth line", below). Tikkanen does the dirty work in the corners and drives opponents crazy. Need to have two Finns so Kurri can partially translate 'Tikkanese'. Gretz & Kurri are the greatest duo in history, once combining for 144 goals together in one season (180 incl. playoffs).
18-20 min. - T. Lindsay (LW) - M. Lemieux (C) - G. Howe (RW)
Two legendary linemates plus super-Mario. I think this can work. Mario doesn't so much need a sniper as much as he needs guys who (a) help create space for him and (b) will take off the heads of anyone who challenges him. He won't get injured so much with those two alongside him. Lindsay is kind of small by today's standards, but as long as the opponents are drawn from a broad section of League history, we're good. Lindsay lives in the corners on this line. (If Lindsay is too small or if I'm in a different mood, I might substitute Forsberg or Crosby for him.)
18-20 min. - A. Ovechkin (LW) - M. Messier (C) - C. McDavid (RW)
The "blow-you-away" line. The collective speed and power of this trio leaves opponents banged-up, gassed, and prone on the ice. (McDavid is thus the NHL's first scoring-champion "third liner".)
2-6 min. - G. Carbonneau (LW) - B. Clarke (C) - P. Datsyuk (RW)
This line kills penalties, and each can fill-in for the above 9 if someone is injured. All three can take face-offs. If you need to take out an opponent with extreme prejudice, Clarke is there. Datsyuk can chat to Ovechkin in Russian. And if we're doing shoot-outs, Datsyuk is the man.
Defence
B. Orr (LD) - D. Harvey (RD)
D. Potvin (LD) - V. Konstantinov (RD)
C. Pronger (LD) - A. MacInnis (RD)
I'm not so sure about Harvey as Orr's partner -- both being lefties -- but based on the footage I've seen, Harvey was adept at coming up the ice from the right side, and as well as defending there. (In any case, he can stay back and give the puck to Orr!) Konstantinov is there because (a) I liked his style, (b) we need a bruiser, and (c) we need more righties (ever notice how many elite Dmen are left-handed?). I'm putting Pronger here over guys like Bourque and Lidstrom because I feel he'd work better in this all-star-team kind of situation, and because I want more tough guys. MacInnis is basically there because I want another right-handed D, but also can you imagine a power-play with Orr & MacInnis firing bombs??
Goalies
D. Hašek
J. Plante
All goalies are kind of weird personality-types, and these two are no exception, but they're my top choices. Hašek is simply the best ever at the NHL level (and maybe at the Olympics too). Plante seems so exceptional in many ways, and I love how he was great for so long, through two or three different eras.
Of course, it pains me to leave off a bunch of the greatest players of all time (which I've done), but I think this line-up of all these guys in their primes would be the ideal team. We'd have to watch out for Messier and Clarke not going over-board with the rough stuff, and, as stated above, I might substitute Forsberg (or Crosby... but honestly I prefer Forsberg) for Ted Lindsay at left-wing.
There are a few guys who don't make it here because I think they're too prima donna-ish to work on an all-star team with egos necessarily parked (thinking of P. Roy and J. Jagr).
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
BenchBrawl
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Savard was a better defensive and big game player than Ray, and I'm not so sure Bourque was that much of a better skater. Savard was extremely mobile for his size, though obviously he didn't have Ray's speed due to his knee injury early in his career. Also, Savard was just as good a decision maker. Regardless, with everything on the line, and with Orr and Harvey already there patrolling their own pairing, I rather have the infinitely steady Savard out there.
I get that this is a matter of opinion and gut feeling, and I know Bourque is a better player, but for this job give me Serge.
Maybe eventually I dress Bourque instead of Horton, but dislike the idea of Bourque on the 3rd pairing.
The Panther
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Mr Burns
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Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
I don't like seeing players put in at positions they never played. (McDavid, Datsyuk, Carbonneau)
But, that's just my opinion.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Mr Burns
LOL U MAD BRO? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Because Bourque was better than Lidstrom and he doesn't even put Bourque there. But Lidstrom was better than Savard though.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
If you're looking for steady, I don't see anyone more steady than Lidstrom.
Mr Burns
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Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Mr Burns
LOL U MAD BRO? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Ya because he was not steady and balanced at all... He can be the most complete defenseman of all time.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Mr Burns
LOL U MAD BRO? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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More than you think so, but okay...
By the way, I never said the best or greatest but the most complete, Robinson was the total package for a defenseman. He could do it all.
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ted2019
History of Hockey
BenchBrawl
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Mostly because Savard was bigger, stronger and more physical and I wanted that in a partner for Orr. I also think he was a better big game player and a better leader.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Not that I believe Savard was better than Bourque--nor could I imagine an "all-time team" without Raymond on it--but I do understand your thinking here. When team-building, chemistry and roles are important. After I made my lineup the other night, I was thinking--
I probably should have re-balanced my club based on the following criteria...
OFFENSE
Scoring line 1--22 minutes a game
Scoring line 2--18 minutes a game
Scoring line 3--12 minutes a game
4th checking line--8 minutes a game
DEFENSE
1st pairing--24 minutes a game
2nd pairing--22 minutes a game
3rd pairing--14 minutes a game
I should have used this framework first, then built my team accordingly. Considering my top 2 scoring lines are being anchored by elite superstars like Gretzky, Lemieux, Esposito, etc.--I need to give them the minutes they require to do damage. I'd never equally roll lines. So I must have players on the 3rd and 4th lines that would be happy (and be able to shine) in a reduced role, especially 4th line guys. 8 minutes isn't a lot of ice time--are there any "superstars" who would be happy with that role? Or do we need more guys like Rick Tocchet, Dirk Graham, Brent Sutter, etc.?
Same on Defense--I want Orr and the like on the ice close to half the game. My 3rd D pairing would only get about 14 mins of ice time--who would be alright with that? Does a Derian Hatcher, Mark Tinordi, Brad McCrimmon, Rick Green, or Richard Matvichuk look better on a 3rd pairing?
Not that your rationale for Savard over Bourque relates to mine above--but I like where your head is. If Orr is going to be the main feature on that top D pairing--and you are giving him the greenlight--having a steady, rock solid Savard to hold down the fort could be a blessing. It's all about asset management. With an Orr-Bourque paring--both can wheel--but there's only one puck to go around. And if I had to pick Bobby or Ray to lead the rush--as much as I love Bourque--I'm picking Orr 10/10 times. That means Bourque needs to be content in his scaled-back role.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Indeed.
Fortunately there are SIX (6) dressed defenseman (at least! Some teams often dress 7), so there is no excuse not to put Bourque on the 2nd or 3rd pairing!! And a pp unit.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Yeah. With my team, I purposely put Ray on the 2nd pairing, so Orr and Bourque could run their own pairing. What I'm reconsidering is my 3rd pairing of...
Robinson-Chelios
I'm not sure how either would handle 14 minutes a night and limited PP time. I mean, I'm sure that I'm overthinking it for this exercise--but to @BenchBrawl 's point--if we're playing a game 7 for everything...
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
I'd dress Chelios as a 7th dman and put the 12th forward in the booth. Chris can be fantastic or fanatical, especially in his earlier Blackhawk years. Threatening him with the bench should keep him in line.
