X. General Stars Talk Marks the Spot

[Troy McClure]

And there's nothing cowboy about designer sunglasses. Real cowboys squint.

 

[SolidusAKA]

Sorry if this is cliche of me. I Couldn't find the roster bating thread, but I was thinking about Benn entering his prime and who we need to surround him with to make this a true contender. I was also thinking about how Nill has been using our massive talent pool to make big trades while keeping key pieces. Its kind of insane how much non-essential value we have turned into key pieces. So I was wondering who we consider to be a part of a potential core team for a cup and who is potential high value trade bait.

<<<<FORWARDS >>>>
Forwards to keep as core: Benn, Seguin, Nichushkin, Spezza
Forwards to keep but might be moved due to value: Ritchie, Eakin, Roussel
Forwards with value that can be moved: Hemsky, Sceviour, Peverley, Garbutt, McKenzie, Dickinson, Faksa, Shore, Ully, Elie, Stransky, Pollock
Forwards with no value that need to be removed from team: Cole, Fiddler, Horcoff, Eaves


<<<<DEFENSE>>>>
Defensemen to keep as core: Dillon, Honka
Defensemen to keep but might be moved due to value: Nemeth, Oleksiak
Defensemen with value that can be moved: Klingberg, Jokipakka, Daley, Goligoski, Benn, Connauton, Bystrom, Lindell
Defensemen with no value that need to be removed from team: Gonchar


<<<<GOALIES>>>>
Goalies to keep in the core: Campbell, Lehtonen
Goalies to keep but might be moved: Desrosiers
Goalies with no value that need to be removed from team: Lindback

You guys can obviously disagree with me, but right now, I see only 8 pure keepers out of 21 spots that could be a potential contender. I would also say we have 5 future core guys who arent locks.


<<<<The Future Core>>>>
Benn - Seguin - X
Ritchie - Spezza - Nichushkin
Roussel - Eakin - X
X - X - X

X - X
Dillon - Honka
Nemeth - Oleksiak
X

Lehtonen
Campbell


<<<<THE POOL OF TRADE VALUE>>>> (This does not mean that everyone in this list should be moved, it just means they are currently moveable and have value)
Hemsky, Sceviour, Peverley, Garbutt, McKenzie, Dickinson, Faksa, Shore, Ully, Elie, Stransky, Pollock, Klingberg, Jokipakka, Daley, Goligoski, Benn, Connauton, Bystrom, Lindell, and Desroisers

I guess I wanna know if you guys agree that this is the 'pool of trade value' that Nill has to work with this summer. Who could be potential trade targets from other teams and what value from this pool can be made to acquire those hypothetical targets. This might be a stupid post, but I am really interested in what Nill can do next off-season along the lines of a Seguin or Spezza like jump to this team.

<<<<TARGETS FOR 2015 OFF-SEASON>>>>
TBA

 

[Satan]

I think "Forwards with no value that need to be removed from team" is a little tough on guys like Horcoff and Fiddler. Even Eaves hasn't been useless.

 

[LT]

Honestly I'd put Hemsky in the core group unless he just sucks. Between him, Spezza, and Seguin, we've got three guys who have gone on long playoff runs and have a lot of playoff experience, something we need to have as much of as possible in the locker room. He's also a borderline top-line winger on a great contract, something we shouldn't be moving unless we're getting a #1 defender.

The rest looks about right, although I'd move Dickinson and Klingberg up a group, but that's just nitpicking.

 

[beepeearr]

Fiddler has great value, he's a vet that signed here for less money then he could have made on the open market, and for an older guy still has really good speed. Horcoff, still has value... and I want to keep him around but not necessarily as an everyday player, he was really good in the playoffs though, but of all the forwards on the team he is so slow. Cole is an odd case, on paper he's a great fit, big and fast, and sometimes he has moments were he is great, but then he has games where he can't catch a pass. Eaves is like a less talented Peverley at this point. You can put him in anywhere to fill a gap in an emergency basis, but he's also a guy you don't mind sitting if other players are playing better. Also his contract is another cheap one.

So Fiddler and Eaves, while I wouldn't say they are core guys, I wouldn't say they are worthless either. Horcoff if you get a good return, trade him, otherwise keep him for the playoffs. Cole, trade him at this point, I don't want to see a year of Cole missing great chance after great chance.

 

[glovesave_35]

Fiddler doesn't need to be removed at all. Knowing exactly what you get with him at that price tag is very valuable.

I don't consider Hemsky part of the core of this team. Even if he plays pretty well I could see him being traded in a couple of seasons as our prospects come up and we eventually have actual cap issues.

I'm not advocating for Lehtonen to be traded, and right now he is obviously a core player, but I could see him being traded if Campbell turns out to be the real deal. His contract is set up to be trade advantageous with declining salary in the later years of the deal, as well as waning movement clause powers.

Lastly, I would say we are smack dab in Benn's prime. That isn't to say that he can't improve as a player, but when you are a 1st team all star and lauded throughout the league by players, coaches, GM's, and media I'd say you have "arrived."

 

[SolidusAKA]

I think my reason for putting guys like Fiddler and Horcoff in that section is precisely because our pool is so big that we have guys knocking on the door for next year and simply do not have the space.

Obviously we dont want to go too young, but we could have a forward group like Tampa next year and probably not feel too out of place. If they are ready, I think we could or should replace Fiddler, Cole, and Horcoff with Ritchie, Faksa, and McKenzie. I agree Fiddler is still good and useful so I see why you guys are protesting, but are we sure Fiddler will be better than a hungry rookie like Faksa on Fiddler's last contract year? I am notorious for having NHL 15 goggles on, so maybe im just undervaluing what a guy like Fiddler brings.

I would also keep Dickinson and Klingberg, but I feel like they are the 'real pieces' that might actually land us another Spezza/Seguin type piece. I'd say a guy like Ritchie or Honka is a tier above them in the truly 'untouchable prospect' category. Dickinson might be closer to a keeper though incase Spezza doesnt resign. He has much more value in that sense if guys like Shore or Faksa dont pan out as true 2C's.

This isnt too bad for next year though:
Benn - Seguin - Nichushkin
Ritchie - Spezza - Hemsky
Roussel - Eakin - Garbutt
McKenzie - Faksa - Sceviour

 

[Satan]

I think my reason for putting guys like Fiddler and Horcoff in that section is precisely because our pool is so big that we have guys knocking on the door for next year and simply do not have the space.

Obviously we dont want to go too young, but we could have a forward group like Tampa next year and probably not feel too out of place. If they are ready, I think we could or should replace Fiddler, Cole, and Horcoff with Ritchie, Faksa, and McKenzie. I agree Fiddler is still good and useful so I see why you guys are protesting, but are we sure Fiddler will be better than a hungry rookie like Faksa on Fiddler's last contract year? I am notorious for having NHL 15 goggles on, so maybe im just undervaluing what a guy like Fiddler brings.

I would also keep Dickinson and Klingberg, but I feel like they are the 'real pieces' that might actually land us another Spezza/Seguin type piece. I'd say a guy like Ritchie or Honka is a tier above them in the truly 'untouchable prospect' category. Dickinson might be closer to a keeper though incase Spezza doesnt resign. He has much more value in that sense if guys like Shore or Faksa dont pan out as true 2C's.

This isnt too bad for next year though:
Benn - Seguin - Nichushkin
Ritchie - Spezza - Hemsky
Roussel - Eakin - Garbutt
McKenzie - Faksa - Sceviour

Top teams seldom trade their veteran leaders when they think they're going to compete in the playoffs in lieu of placing a rookie into the lineup.

It really makes no sense. Unless the kid is a worldbreaker. Faksa is not.

 

[SolidusAKA]

Top teams seldom trade their veteran leaders when they think they're going to compete in the playoffs in lieu of placing a rookie into the lineup.

It really makes no sense. Unless the kid is a worldbreaker. Faksa is not.

I think thats a good point, but Im not sure Fiddler is that kind of veteran. Yes, he is effective and yes he is good for the team right now. I think hes a great guy too. But is he a potential Cole next year (unmotivated)? Or will he be a Whitney (shadow of himself)? We saw some of that last year when he was slumping and asking for a trade.

If you look at the Kings last year, they rode their young guys to the cup with very little veteran presence (veteran being mid 30s in this context). Would you say Robyn Regehr was essential to that cup run? Id say Justin Williams was, but I dont think Fiddler is a Justin Williams.

I see it both ways though, so I get what you mean. Fiddler is good for this team now and could definitely be useful in the future.

 

[Hull Fan]

I doubt Fiddler goes but they could replace Gonchar, Cole, and Horcoff internally and probably not miss anything on the ice and not a ton off it either. This team has several veterans who've gone through the grind of the NHL season and the postseason.

Replacing veterans with veterans is a nice thought but in a cap world it's not really possible. Besides the kids like Ritchie, McKenzie, Faska, and Stransky are all better hockey players going forward than the broken shell of Cole, master of nothing Eaves, and no show Horcoff.

Tampa is breaking in their kids just fine. Of course they'll make mistakes and probably cost us a game or two along the way but they'll also contribute more points, and improve. They're the next wave. There has to be someone coming behind Nichushkin or a bubble team is all we'll ever be.

 

[BigG44]

TB is not a good example for your argument. They're a perfect example for Nill's argument to have those veterans though. You only think of the TB kids because they're the best players on the team ... just like Dallas.

You're fixated on the Dallas' veteran's because you think they are unnecessary. I'd agree two probably are, but Dallas is overwhelmingly young ... close to as young as TB. The only slight difference is outside of Brewer and Morrow (our Gonchar and Cole) their core vets are slightly younger in Callahan and Filppula (Fiddler and Horcoff). They also have more late-20/early 30 veteran D than Dallas.

You're holding up TB as this great team that plays young guys. They do, but even Yzerman has his veterans to balance the group.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

I completely forgot Morrow was on Tampa Bay......

 

[Satan]

TB is not a good example for your argument. They're a perfect example for Nill's argument to have those veterans though. You only think of the TB kids because they're the best players on the team ... just like Dallas.

You're fixated on the Dallas' veteran's because you think they are unnecessary. I'd agree two probably are, but Dallas is overwhelmingly young ... close to as young as TB. The only slight difference is outside of Brewer and Morrow (our Gonchar and Cole) their core vets are slightly younger in Callahan and Filppula (Fiddler and Horcoff). They also have more late-20/early 30 veteran D than Dallas.

You're holding up TB as this great team that plays young guys. They do, but even Yzerman has his veterans to balance the group.

BigG saved me the trouble of typing out the same thing. Ilysm <3

 

[SolidusAKA]

Im asking this out of sheer inexperience: do you guys think Fiddler will provide more 'good hockey' through his veteran leadership and experience than Faksa and McKenzie on this team next year?

I know we wouldnt resign Cole, but would anyone actually resign Horcoff at a reduced contract (e.g. 1m)?

If we have 12 regular spots next year, does Fiddler fit or does a young guy from the AHL ready to make the jump? Maybe Fiddler isnt the guy to move, maybe Garbutt goes in place of someone like Faksa or McKenzie?

Benn - Seguin - Nuke
Ritchie - Spezza - Hemsky
Roussel - Eakin - X (Faksa/Garbutt)
Sceviour - X (Fiddler/Faksa) - X (McKenzie)


3 regular roster spots for 4 guys? Fiddler, Garbutt, Faksa, McKenzie. Regardless, I know we can keep all of them. I'm just not as convinced Fiddler-types are as essential to a contending team.

The only slight difference is outside of Brewer and Morrow (our Gonchar and Cole) their core vets are slightly younger in Callahan and Filppula (Fiddler and Horcoff). They also have more late-20/early 30 veteran D than Dallas.

Do you think Fiddler and Horcoff are comparable to Filppula and Callahan though? If the argument was simply 'is it good to have vets', then I would agree. But there are varrying degrees of caliber in vets. Filppula was a near 60pt guy last year. We dont have that kind of contribution from out vets.

 

[BigG44]

No I don't ... but I wasn't going to go into great detail. Since you asked ....

I think Spezza and Hemsky are better than Callahan and Filppula, and I'd rather have Fiddler at his salary term long over Boyle. It's a lose, lose for you guys. TB and Dallas are doing the same thing playing several young players and supplementing vets in a few key roles. It's a win-win for Dallas and TB IMO. Most good teams have a balance between youth and experience.

Everybody knows you never go full youngster. Never go full youngster or you go home empty handed. Watching Tropic Thunder at work .... brushing my teeth Pejorative Slured.

 

[Satan]

Ruff and Nill didn't give Fiddler an A on his jersey for no reason. That's an obvious sign that he means a lot to the group and he's here until the end of 2016.

Horcoff? But he didn't exactly have an awful playoffs last year.

Faksa won't be seeing any time on the RW... let's see how he does in Cedar Park for at least a year before we start throwing him into a lineup. I personally don't see him eclipsing Eakin or Dickinson. If we don't re-sign Spezza, he'll likely join the big club.


Benn - Seguin - Nichushkin
Ritchie - Spezza - Hemsky
Roussel - Eakin - Garbutt
McKenzie - Fiddler - Sceviour


I would honestly have no problem bringing back Horcoff for a year at 1M or less.


It's also rather early to discuss next year's roster when there may be a couple disruptions this year. (e.g. Spezza doesn't want to re-sign // Trade deadline moves)

 

[SolidusAKA]

Everybody knows you never go full youngster. Never go full youngster or you go home empty handed. Watching Tropic Thunder at work .... brushing my teeth Pejorative Slured.

I think Im just bitter or something. To me, it seems its always the old guys we want to throw into the sun year after year. I can live with Fiddler though. If we have just Spezza, Hemsky, Fiddler, Daley, Goligoski as our 30+ vets next year, I will be happy.

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

I completely forgot Morrow was on Tampa Bay......

Is there a reason not to forget?

 

[glovesave_35]

I'm not completely out on bringing Horcoff back, but I wouldn't unless someone like Garbutt was traded. It basically boils down to whether or not you want to see McKenzie play for your NHL team.

As far as vets vs youth...there would have to be a ton of trades made to rid this team of all its veteran leadership. It's basically a non-issue, though I realize you guys are mostly debating hypotheticals.

 

[BigG44]

I think Im just bitter or something. To me, it seems its always the old guys we want to throw into the sun year after year. I can live with Fiddler though. If we have just Spezza, Hemsky, Fiddler, Daley, Goligoski as our 30+ vets next year, I will be happy.

I don't care if the others or gone, but it crazy town to have a limit on older players. You don't have to go on a spending spree, but if hypothetically Joe Thornton or Brian Campbell would come to Dallas ... you don't pass on that. If Johnny Boychuk would take a reasonable deal in Dallas ... I don't turn him away either.

I know many won't agree on Campbell probably, but he's only signed for one more year and a Super PP turns potentially unreal if Campbell is the other guy instead of Trevor Daley. There's little doubt in my mind I'd take one year of Campbell this summer (or sooner if they'd take Gonchar back to make the money work right now).

Also ... I 100% want the 13th/14th forward and 7th D to be a veteran next year. I don't want to see another Connauton/Oleksiak or when healthy Connauton/Gonchar rotation. We're three games in, but I think both are clearly better than Gonchar, and Oleksiak should be done in the AHL soon playing full time after the injury situation works itself out.

It's also rather early to discuss next year's roster when there may be a couple disruptions this year. (e.g. Spezza doesn't want to re-sign // Trade deadline moves)

It's hard not to rosterbate, especially when you look at their financial situation the next two or three years. They have the cap space to try and go all in right now with some killer veterans before they have to pay Benn and Seguin at a premium.

Thornton 2 more years at $6.75
Campbell 1 at $7.1
Doan if PHX shopped him for 1 at $5.3

I didn't go look up every option, but there are some great situations where you could add some higher priced veterans with contracts that expire by 2017 (Same as Jamie Benn).

 

[glovesave_35]

Eww I don't want Doan on this team at all.

 

[bug]

What do we speculate Campbell would cost us right now?

Faksa
Connauton
Gonchar

for

Campbell

Am I too far off?

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

Would we even fit under the cap with that deal?

 

[MetalGodAOD*]

What do we speculate Campbell would cost us right now?

Faksa
Connauton
Gonchar

for

Campbell

Am I too far off?

Pretty far off, Faksa is the only good player in there.

 

[BigG44]

Would we even fit under the cap with that deal?

Right now yes because Dallas did use LTIR with Peverley over the weekend. If he comes back probably no.

They could get creative and only carry 13 forwards and 7 D possibly to get under the cap without having to make any additional moves other than waiving someone like Eaves.

Here's what Dallas would look like with Campbell in a trade today (demoting Oleksiak and McKenzie):

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Jamie Benn ($5.250m) / Tyler Seguin ($5.750m) / Valeri Nichushkin ($0.925m)
Colton Sceviour ($0.650m) / Jason Spezza ($7.000m) / Ales Hemsky ($4.000m)
Antoine Roussel ($2.000m) / Cody Eakin ($1.900m) / Ryan Garbutt ($1.800m)
Shawn Horcoff ($5.500m) / Vernon Fiddler ($1.250m) / Patrick Eaves ($0.650m)
Erik Cole ($4.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alex Goligoski ($4.600m) / Trevor Daley ($3.300m)
Brian Campbell ($7.143m) / Brenden Dillon ($1.250m)
Jordie Benn ($0.700m) / Patrik Nemeth ($0.763m)
Kevin Connauton ($0.683m) /
GOALTENDERS
Kari Lehtonen ($5.900m)
Anders Lindback ($0.925m)
BUYOUTS
Aaron Rome ($0.000m)
LTIR
Rich Peverley ($3.250m)
BONUS OVERAGE
NaN
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15 crunched using simulation date of 2014-10-16)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; BONUSES: $1,306,667
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,575,922

Dallas would need to move $674,078 more space if Peverley ever came off LTIR.