Would You Trade Scheifele or Laine for a top dman?

[Psych0dad]

Alot of teams have been burned by aquiring "top tier defencemen" that quickly became not so top-tier. If you look at scoring in the NHL right now and the likes of Pasternak/Marchand, Draisatl/McDavid, it's their sccoring that's the biggest factor by far in their good team records. I don't think having some elite Number 1 defenceman is the most important factor for a team. Elite forwards drive the wagon and goaltending, if you get even good goaltending you can outscore your opponents.

Yes, in the end goal scoring is still the most important and valuable skill in the game. And will remain so as long as the winners are picked by which team scores more. Something people should keep in mind when coming up with trade ideas.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

Yes, in the end goal scoring is still the most important and valuable skill in the game. And will remain so as long as the winners are picked by which team scores more. Something people should keep in mind when coming up with trade ideas.

I just think the leagues changed in 5 years, game is called tighter and there's a massive influx of young, fast, great talent coming to the league. 5 years ago having someone like Doughty and keeping it tight was your best bet propably, in 2015 Benn won the Art Ross with 87 points. This year that won't even get you to the top 10. In 2013-2014 and 2015-2016 you had one guy above a 100 points, now you're propably gonna have atleast half a dozen above a 100 points.

 

[Jet]

Alot of teams have been burned by aquiring "top tier defencemen" that quickly became not so top-tier. If you look at scoring in the NHL right now and the likes of Pasternak/Marchand, Draisatl/McDavid, it's their sccoring that's the biggest factor by far in their good team records. I don't think having some elite Number 1 defenceman is the most important factor for a team. Elite forwards drive the wagon and goaltending, if you get even good goaltending you can outscore your opponents.

Of course, scoring is important to win

I would suggest that a team with a good TEAM defensive scheme is far superior than having a good defense with a poor defensive scheme.

The proof of that is the Winnipeg Jets last year. All year (even when we were winning) our team defense was very poor, and in the second half we not only stopped outscoring that problem, but our goaltending wasn't playing above average to help, either.

This year, I am starting to see signs of the forwards playing better defensively (though we need to continue to improve in our zone). That, to me, allows you to have less 'star' defensemen to compensate.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

Of course, scoring is important to win

I would suggest that a team with a good TEAM defensive scheme is far superior than having a good defense with a poor defensive scheme.

The proof of that is the Winnipeg Jets last year. All year (even when we were winning) our team defense was very poor, and in the second half we not only stopped outscoring that problem, but our goaltending wasn't playing above average to help, either.

This year, I am starting to see signs of the forwards playing better defensively (though we need to continue to improve in our zone). That, to me, allows you to have less 'star' defensemen to compensate.

Sounds like the Jets of this year, I remember reading some of the comments from opponent GDT.s early in the season on how the defence lineup was the worst they'd ever seen and so on. Of course there were some guys who've ended up being much better than alot of people thought (so far) like Pionk and both Laine and Ehlers have taken strides defencively but yeah, I had to give Maurice more credit than I had previously, they've made it work so far.

I agree on the forwards, it's gonna be interesting to see tonight on how the 1st line fares with one of the best 5v5 centers in the league in Getzlaf.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Teams don't need superstar defense men to win a cup. They need solid team defense.

Cup winners and Dman with highest ATOI:

19 Blues, Pietroangelo
18 Capitals, Carlson
17 Penguins, Letang
16 Penguins, Letang
15 Blackhawks, Keith
14 Kings, Doughty
13 Blackhawks, Keith
12 Kings, Doughty
11 Bruins, Chara
10 Blackhawks, Keith
09 Penguins, Gonchar
08 Red Wings, Lidström
07 Ducks, Niedermayer
06 Hurricanes, Hedican

Other than the 06 Hurricanes every team has a star D as their ATOI leader.

 

[Tommigun]

Teams don't need superstar defense men to win a cup. They need solid team defense.

Which was very evident against the Sharks. They have two superstar defensemen and their D looked putrid.

 

[tntkid]

No f***ing way.

Defensemen are a dime a dozen.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Not a chance

With the right system and buy in from players you can be successful in the NHL. Everyone has to deal with the cap now so it really evens out and it makes teams that can really identify talent better then those that can't.

I think we mislead ourselves here by using words like 'trash' to describe some players and excessive superlatives to describe others. I think the truth is that all the players who reach the NHL are pretty darn good hockey players. Even bottom of the roster D men can stop McDavid some of the time and even bottom of the roster forwards can beat EK65 some of the time.

While the gap from worst to best might be fairly wide, I don't think the gap from Worst or best to average is all that great. We need to compress the entire scale of how we judge these players.

The same probably goes for coaches and GM's too. They all know their jobs pretty well or they would never have risen to where they are now. The NHL is the top of the pyramid of hockey. Everyone in the NHL has had to rise to the very top of several layers below before they got to the NHL.

Edit: In case it didn't come through, I think this something we need to keep in mind all the time we are critiquing these people. We may have valid points to make, like Maurice should have split up Wheeler and Scheifele a lot sooner, for example. The fact he didn't doesn't make him an idiot. Or the worst coach in the league. And if it did make him the worst coach in the league, he would still be pretty good on the spectrum of all coaches.

 

[Channelcat]

No ****ing way.

Defensemen are a dime a dozen.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but it does seem like the game is evolving to the point where good defensive D are sort of like goaltenders. You take them where you find them. Super high skill guys like Heiskanen and Makar being the exception.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

i don't disagree, but that's still not the crux of the discussion. Scheifele & Wheeler (the bromance) wasn't a disaster in 17-18 and poster said "numbers were never there, yet they stuck on it for 2 and half seasons" they were there in 17-18. their GF% in 17-18 was nearly equivalent to what Laine & Scheifele had together (withing 0.75% of each other IIRC). Id argue Laine & Scheifele together were riding an unsustainable on ice-shooting % through '18 with their SH% was better than most PPs. id reckon it would regress, but still be higher than most lines given you have the 2 of the best 5v5 shooters. if we are talking 18-19, yea they easily should have broken up but unfortunately Laine was terrible that season.

edit-Ehlers-Little-Laine was actually not bad in 16-17, 60% GF in 207 5v5 mins, perhaps that's why maurice wanted to give it a look? not sure. anyway, CSW wasn't a disaster in 17-18 or for 2.5 years, which is the point im making.

Why does one hyperbolic poster get to determine the crux of the discussion? IMO, Halberdier is discussing the crux of the matter. You keep wanting to go back to that one overstatement of the matter. Clearly, it was not a disaster.

 

[Jets 31]

Would you trade Laine or Scheifele ? In the words of Dr.Evil , how bought NO you crazy Dutch bastard .

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Alot of teams have been burned by aquiring "top tier defencemen" that quickly became not so top-tier. If you look at scoring in the NHL right now and the likes of Pasternak/Marchand, Draisatl/McDavid, it's their sccoring that's the biggest factor by far in their good team records. I don't think having some elite Number 1 defenceman is the most important factor for a team. Elite forwards drive the wagon and goaltending, if you get even good goaltending you can outscore your opponents.

Not to disagree with your basic statement, but a high powered offense is more likely to go through dry spells than is a solid D. A solid D will get you wins even when the offense dries up to some extent. Always assuming good goaltending of course.

Ideally you want a strong offense and a solid D. I think that is what Jets had the last 2 years. The only elite level Dman we had was Buff. Morrissey and Trouba were a very good pair but I think the word 'solid' fit them better than the word 'elite'.

I don't think our D is what I would call solid this year. Just too many holes. But it is probably only a couple of improvements away from solid. Might even be solid if we had Buff.

 

[Buffdog]

Yes, in the end goal scoring is still the most important and valuable skill in the game. And will remain so as long as the winners are picked by which team scores more. Something people should keep in mind when coming up with trade ideas.

Defense wins games... offense decides by how much

*I may have been a goalie

 

[Adam da bomb]

Defense wins games... offense decides by how much

*I may have been a goalie

And the best defense is keeping it in their net. Alas no forward or offense is that good.

 

[NotCommitted]

Cup winners and Dman with highest ATOI:
Other than the 06 Hurricanes every team has a star D as their ATOI leader.

D-men will always have more icetime than forwards, until they come up with a #1 center who can play 30 minutes a night and not miss a beat. If your no1 C is Crosby and no2 is Malkin, it seems a bit odd to put Letang on a pedestal as the reason why Pittsburgh won all those cups. Is Pietrangelo a star D-man? Is Letang? Is every decent #1 d-man a star? How much is it about a good D-man being in a great team, or is it a great D-man making a team good? What about the depth at D behind that no1 guy?

 

[Psych0dad]

Defense wins games... offense decides by how much

*I may have been a goalie

Offense has to happen because the game is decided on goal(s). That's why it's primary. But yes you also need to let less pucks in than the opponent after that goal is scored.

 

[jepjepjoo]

D-men will always have more icetime than forwards, until they come up with a #1 center who can play 30 minutes a night and not miss a beat. If your no1 C is Crosby and no2 is Malkin, it seems a bit odd to put Letang on a pedestal as the reason why Pittsburgh won all those cups. Is Pietrangelo a star D-man? Is Letang? Is every decent #1 d-man a star? How much is it about a good D-man being in a great team, or is it a great D-man making a team good? What about the depth at D behind that no1 guy?

The point wasn't to compare icetime to forwards. The point was that every cup winner has a star D. Both Letang and Pietroangelo have post season all star selections and both have been top4 in norris voting. They most definitely are stars.

 

[Plural]

D-men will always have more icetime than forwards, until they come up with a #1 center who can play 30 minutes a night and not miss a beat. If your no1 C is Crosby and no2 is Malkin, it seems a bit odd to put Letang on a pedestal as the reason why Pittsburgh won all those cups. Is Pietrangelo a star D-man? Is Letang? Is every decent #1 d-man a star? How much is it about a good D-man being in a great team, or is it a great D-man making a team good? What about the depth at D behind that no1 guy?

Letang during the Pens cup wins was absolutely a star D. It's insane to even suggest he wasn't.

 

[scelaton]

Yes, in the end goal scoring is still the most important and valuable skill in the game. And will remain so as long as the winners are picked by which team scores more. Something people should keep in mind when coming up with trade ideas.

No, outscoring your opposition is what makes winners, which is why team goal differential is simplest way to identify playoff-bound teams. Scorers who are are on the ice for more goals against than for may be flashy, but ultimately not effective.

The other point is that star defensemen don't just play old-style defense, but drive possession and score points. Cale Makar has more points this season than either Scheifele or Laine, and the top 10 scoring D in the NHL all have over 20 points. Makar and McKinnon are far more likely to help win their team a championship than any two of our forwards.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Neither. But if Scheifele doesn't pull his head out his butt soon, id consider him. Not for a D man tho.