Would the Wolves be independent? Upd: apparently yes, Independence Day

[grits207]

And how exactly is the AHL allowing this?

Why wouldn't they allow it?

 

[rsteen]

I talked to an unnamed person from another organization who is in the room per say and find out that Carolina(owner probably) tells the Wolves if you want to have these players back...no problem...but we won't pay for them. If you want them then you are going to pay for them yourselves. Thus leading to the Wolves getting players, who are marginal at best( see cheap), on loan or signing players who don't want to be here because of the circumstances...

I'm confused. If the Wolves have the money to go independent, why didn't they sign these players? Why were they depending on Carolina to fill out the AHL vets on their roster?

 

[aparch]

Why wouldn't they allow it?

Norfolk tried to go independent when the Pacific teams wanted to move west. The league office told them if they did, the league didn't have to schedule any games for them. Norfolk relented and sold their franchise to Anaheim.

 

[TheCalderFarmstead]

 

[axecrew]

I'm confused. If the Wolves have the money to go independent, why didn't they sign these players? Why were they depending on Carolina to fill out the AHL vets on their roster?

Just because you have the money doesn't mean you want to spend it, plus it also depends on what their agreement with Carolina is..

Norfolk tried to go independent when the Pacific teams wanted to move west. The league office told them if they did, the league didn't have to schedule any games for them. Norfolk relented and sold their franchise to Anaheim.

I brought this up in conversation as well...who knows maybe that's why some of the independent teams want Howson gone...easier path to independence?

 

[axecrew]

The answer is YES the Chicago Wolves are involved in the Scott Howson story and the quote I was given was "We are not leading the charge" which leads me to believe it's an old established AHL independent team like a Hershey or a Rochester type team...BTW ALSO...Thanks for jacking my thread title from 3 DAYS ago on this very topic of the Wolves going independent and not at least having the common courtesy of at least acknowledging me for it.

 

[GindyDraws]

Apparently, the answer is "yes".

 

[Mike Jones]

I don't know that they are "pining" for the IHL days as much as they are sick of being told one thing by the parent club and then having another thing done. Multiple times over the years they have been told a certain player was to be sent here only for the parent club to keep that player up even though they were outplayed by another player.
Example...2021 pandemic season they take players from 2 NHL teams to help out another team...2022 Carolina goes all out to win a Calder cup in Chicago because they believe it benefits their prospects to learn to win and play deep into the playoffs...it works Wolves win 3rd Calder cup and 5th overall championship.
2023...Wolves roster has an unprecedented turnover of players leaving for other organizations but no one knows why...I talked to an unnamed person from another organization who is in the room per say and find out that Carolina(owner probably) tells the Wolves if you want to have these players back...no problem...but we won't pay for them. If you want them then you are going to pay for them yourselves. Thus leading to the Wolves getting players, who are marginal at best( see cheap), on loan or signing players who don't want to be here because of the circumstances...

Welcome to life as a development team. These are the rules and realities each and every team faces. If the Wolves don't like it they can sell, fold, or start their own league. There may be some markets that would like to see a restart of the old IHL.

 

[GindyDraws]

Welcome to life as a development team. These are the rules and realities each and every team faces. If the Wolves don't like it they can sell, fold, or start their own league. There may be some markets that would like to see a restart of the old IHL.

Except I don't know if there is much value in the IHL in 2024 or 2025 as there was in the 1990s. People don't like failure, and people are unwilling to invest in the long term. There may be a few markets that might be interested in going rogue for the sake of showing the AHL who's boss, but that could backfire spectacularly.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I think the kind of players that end up there are cap dumps and buried contracts.

I imagine it being similar to the Sheldon Souray situation with Edmonton when the Oilers assigned him to the Hershey Bears instead of the Barons. Just to keep him away from the organization.

My other question is if they follow the rules of the AHL when it comes to signing contracts. Because if they can break that rule, there will be controversies of them winning consistent Calder Cups.

 

[aparch]

What rules to signing? There isn't a salary cap like the ECHL. There isn't a 50 contract cap like the NHL.

The AHL is the perfect wild west for an independent team. They can sign as many players as they want, they can pay whatever they want.

The only thing holding them back is the nightly roster limits with 13 skaters under 260 games, 1 under 320, and four more with no restrictions. Goalies are exempt.



I'd be interested in hearing what the PHPA and NHLPA thinks...

 

[axecrew]

I love it when the clowns come out to play...definitely makes a boring day more lively...now all we need is hutch to chime in with the wisdom he has and itll be complete

 

[axecrew]

Welcome to life as a development team. These are the rules and realities each and every team faces. If the Wolves don't like it they can sell, fold, or start their own league. There may be some markets that would like to see a restart of the old IHL.

I LOVE this post....Coming from someone who's location is purported is to be Calgary...You know... the NHL team that has burned down more AHL affiliate cities than Godzilla has Japanese buildings. But do tell me how an affiliation works. Thanks for setting me straight on all of this...

 

[Mike Jones]

Except I don't know if there is much value in the IHL in 2024 or 2025 as there was in the 1990s. People don't like failure, and people are unwilling to invest in the long term. There may be a few markets that might be interested in going rogue for the sake of showing the AHL who's boss, but that could backfire spectacularly.

Then that reduces Chicago's choices. They should have to play by the rules like everybody else.

I LOVE this post....Coming from someone who's location is purported is to be Calgary...You know... the NHL team that has burned down more AHL affiliate cities than Godzilla has Japanese buildings. But do tell me how an affiliation works. Thanks for setting me straight on all of this...

I'm not a Flames fan and have been more than critical about the Shames and their disastrous approach to player development. Maybe the Flames should go to Chicago as neither organization has any idea how to develop players.

 

[axecrew]

Then that reduces Chicago's choices. They should have to play by the rules like everybody else.


I'm not a Flames fan and have been more than critical about the Shames and their disastrous approach to player development. Maybe the Flames should go to Chicago as neither organization has any idea how to develop players.

Chicago does play by the same rules as everyone else...if they didn't they couldn't play...

The second part of your post tells me all I need to know not to engage in a battle of wits with you...

 

[Mike Jones]

The second part of your post tells me all I need to know not to engage in a battle of wits with you...

No - I've only been living here in Calgary for over 27 years now and observing the Flames from inside city limits.

And if Chicago wants to go independent they should find a new league as they no longer seem to want to be a development team.

 

[Andre Poodle Lussier]

I haven't seen the league bylaws/constitution (whatever they call it) so I'm curious if there's an actual bylaw in the AHL that requires affiliation with a NHL club or if it's a "rule" or "gentlemen's agreement" of sorts that the league pushes.

If there's no bylaw that states Chicago has to affiliate with a NHL club, they can certainly sign a roster that checks the boxes on length of service and be in compliance with the rules. They can sign some veteran ECHL+ guys and a few AHL/KHL/European guys, plus collegiate free agents that don't want to get stuck in the ECHL/AHL shuffle, and away they go as an independent. There's enough hockey talent to run off with a decent club if Chicago is willing to play by the rules (and assuming the league does in fact not have an actual bylaw in place requiring affiliation).

Assuming no bylaw, Chicago has more of a case to chase indy status in the AHL than Norfolk did at the time of the "gun to head" move with the Admirals. Besides Chicago being a travel hub, Chicago is near a bunch of clubs in the Midwest. Norfolk was very much a geographic island in the league. Easier to tell them off. It's going to be harder to chase Chicago away. unless the bylaw is ironclad.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Goalies are exempt.

They can ice a team full of college graduates who never got NHL or AHL contracts, guys who played a couple years in Europe and are home sick, and a bunch of career ECHL'ers. The vets can be lifer AHL'ers and NHL players on their way out the door.

No salary cap nor roster cap means they can have as many people as they want on the payroll.

Just for games, they're limited to 13 skaters with less than 260 games played and 1 skater under 320 games. The remaining spots are unlimited.

They cannot just grab european players. A a veteran player

• Must have played over 320 NHL, AHL or “elite-level” European regular season games

Additionally teams may dress one “veteran-exempt” player – one who has played between 261-320 NHL, AHL or high-level European regular season contests.

And how exactly is the AHL allowing this?

Beause their by-laws allow it? What they did with Norfolk when they tried to do this back when, the AHL said fine, we just wont schedule any games or officials. Difference is LEvin has tons of money and is not afraid of starting a lawsuit.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Welcome to life as a development team. These are the rules and realities each and every team faces. If the Wolves don't like it they can sell, fold, or start their own league. There may be some markets that would like to see a restart of the old IHL.

I haven't seen the league bylaws/constitution (whatever they call it) so I'm curious if there's an actual bylaw in the AHL that requires affiliation with a NHL club or if it's a "rule" or "gentlemen's agreement" of sorts that the league pushes.

If there's no bylaw that states Chicago has to affiliate with a NHL club, they can certainly sign a roster that checks the boxes on length of service and be in compliance with the rules. They can sign some veteran ECHL+ guys and a few AHL/KHL/European guys, plus collegiate free agents that don't want to get stuck in the ECHL/AHL shuffle, and away they go as an independent. There's enough hockey talent to run off with a decent club if Chicago is willing to play by the rules (and assuming the league does in fact not have an actual bylaw in place requiring affiliation).

Assuming no bylaw, Chicago has more of a case to chase indy status in the AHL than Norfolk did at the time of the "gun to head" move with the Admirals. Besides Chicago being a travel hub, Chicago is near a bunch of clubs in the Midwest. Norfolk was very much a geographic island in the league. Easier to tell them off. It's going to be harder to chase Chicago away. unless the bylaw is ironclad.

There are no by laws that require an AHL team to be affiliated with an NHL team except upon entry into the league. There used to be a thread pinned to this forum explaining that because axecrew refused to believe it, just kidding, it wasn't axe but long time posters know who it is.

And the rule and reality is no affiliation required, just have to abide by the veteran rule.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I think there has to be 33 teams in the AHL to continue allowing all 32 teams to have an AHL affiliate of their own.

As it stands, I think Grand Rapids should move to the North Division to join the rest of the ETZ teams in the East, while Calgary and Colorado, both MTZ teams in areas that observe DST, should be moved to the Central. The 33rd team has to go to the Western Conference because I think the East should be affiliated with Eastern teams in the NHL, and the West teams outside the Wolves be affiliated with NHL Western Conference teams. It is up to the AHL where they would want to place team #33.

 

[axecrew]

There are no by laws that require an AHL team to be affiliated with an NHL team except upon entry into the league. There used to be a thread pinned to this forum explaining that because axecrew refused to believe it, just kidding, it wasn't axe but long time posters know who it is.

And the rule and reality is no affiliation required, just have to abide by the veteran rule.

Yes it was me...but only in a clutch....

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Is there anything preventing the AHL to dump the club and for Carolina to find a new suitor?

I mean the Wolf have great attendance for the AHL, but there a lot of big untapped market

 

[axecrew]

I think there has to be 33 teams in the AHL to continue allowing all 32 teams to have an AHL affiliate of their own.

As it stands, I think Grand Rapids should move to the North Division to join the rest of the ETZ teams in the East, while Calgary and Colorado, both MTZ teams in areas that observe DST, should be moved to the Central. The 33rd team has to go to the Western Conference because I think the East should be affiliated with Eastern teams in the NHL, and the West teams outside the Wolves be affiliated with NHL Western Conference teams. It is up to the AHL where they would want to place team #33.

There will NOT be a 33rd team...not today not tomorrow not until the NHL expands to that number. That is a thought that is 100% completely off the books. Bottomline is simple...Chicago can 100% indeed go independent, they fulfilled the requirement to enter the league over 2 decades ago when they affiliated with Atlanta. As long as they play by the same rules the other 31 teams play by there isn't anything to say. Can the league play hardball with them like Tommy said...absolutely they can play that way and tell them they won't schedule any games for them...BUT...they won't.. WHY? Quite simple..The AHL does NOT want to get into a pissing contest with Wolves ownership, who is a Sports Agent who is a lawyer...and the other a Billionaire, especially in light of the fact that said ownership has felt the AHL treated them like crap all this time. That is the VERY reason Chicago being a travel hub has never hosted an AHL All Star game in spite of how logical it would be...they don't want anymore dealings with the league then they have to.
The question no one seems to be zeroing in on is...What is carolina going to do? They only have a small number of choices...
#1...Come to jesus and figure out how to make it work with Chicago
#2...hope to share a team with someone
#3 sprinkle their guys throughout the league ala Dallas a number of years ago
2 and 3 aren't very good options for a team that just wants their affiliate to only develop their players because just because they are there doesn't mean they will or have to play meaningful minutes. Not too mention they sure won't be developing any chemistry with their organization team mates playing apart from each other in another teams systems.

Guess we will see what happens

Is there anything preventing the AHL to dump the club and for Carolina to find a new suitor?

I mean the Wolf have great attendance for the AHL, but there a lot of big untapped market

Read my post below yours...and that untapped market you speak of...do some research and look at the tons of different entertainment options the city of Chicago has on any given night...and not just sports...

 

[wildcat48]

There will NOT be a 33rd team...not today not tomorrow not until the NHL expands to that number. That is a thought that is 100% completely off the books. Bottomline is simple...Chicago can 100% indeed go independent, they fulfilled the requirement to enter the league over 2 decades ago when they affiliated with Atlanta. As long as they play by the same rules the other 31 teams play by there isn't anything to say. Can the league play hardball with them like Tommy said...absolutely they can play that way and tell them they won't schedule any games for them...BUT...they won't.. WHY? Quite simple..The AHL does NOT want to get into a pissing contest with Wolves ownership, who is a Sports Agent who is a lawyer...and the other a Billionaire, especially in light of the fact that said ownership has felt the AHL treated them like crap all this time. That is the VERY reason Chicago being a travel hub has never hosted an AHL All Star game in spite of how logical it would be...they don't want anymore dealings with the league then they have to.
The question no one seems to be zeroing in on is...What is carolina going to do? They only have a small number of choices...
#1...Come to jesus and figure out how to make it work with Chicago
#2...hope to share a team with someone
#3 sprinkle their guys throughout the league ala Dallas a number of years ago
2 and 3 aren't very good options for a team that just wants their affiliate to only develop their players because just because they are there doesn't mean they will or have to play meaningful minutes. Not too mention they sure won't be developing any chemistry with their organization team mates playing apart from each other in another teams systems.

Guess we will see what happens


Read my post below yours...and that untapped market you speak of...do some research and look at the tons of different entertainment options the city of Chicago has on any given night...and not just sports...

I do not disagree with most of what you say except one point. The NHL is going to have a say, and if the NHL wants to Carolina to have its own affiliate. If Carolina wants to have its own affiliate. Then Carolina will have its own affiliate because at the end the day the other owners can take their ball and go to another sand box and leave Chicago by itself.

I'm not saying Chicago won't be an independent club, but I am saying is that it's not going to happen in a vacuum and the NHL is going to have a big say in what happens moving forward because frankly they are largest stakeholder involved.

Without the NHL's blessing, it's DOA.

 

[wildcat48]

There is precedent the AHL could go the route of Norfolk, threaten not to schedule them. The AHL could also grant a provisional franchise to Carolina like they did with Cedar Park, or the AHL could have Carolina share a franchise with another NHL team.

Every one of those scenarios carry more questions than answers at the moment....

What if Carolina doesn't want to share? What if another NHL franchise doesn't want to share with Carolina? What if the NHL doesn't want Carolina to be left alone? How the NHL respond? 21 of the 32 teams are currently owned by NHL clubs with another half dozen having a very close relationship with their NHL parent club. What is preventing the NHL from forcing Chicago out by shuttering the league, and moving to a new developmental league? While Chicago's owner has money, the NHL has money as well, and those players are assets so a lawsuit while not preferred, I do not believe scares the AHL because the NHL would foot the bill.

Again, I'm not saying Chicago will or won't be an independent, but its not going to happen in a vacuum.