Would the Wolves be independent? Upd: apparently yes, Independence Day

[aparch]

Gwinnett to AHL is interesting. (The rumored NHL expansion to ATL is delirious at best, but I've been wrong before.)

The Gladiators play in an 11.3k seat arena, which is right sized for the AHL, and would be the second smallest rink in the NHL, smallest if you don't count Mullett Arena in Tempe. (WPG's Canada Life Centre is just 2k bigger than ATL's Gas South Arena.)

The last couple times the AHL ran into "expansion" issues was 2009 when the Chops were suspended for using the franchise as collateral on a loan and the league allowed Dallas to start the Texas Stars as an associate membership (on the plan and hopes that the Chops sold their AHL franchise). Then again in 2015 with the oft reminded Norfolk attempt at going it without an affiliation and being told to enjoy paying for a franchise with no schedule. Would the AHL sell a 33rd franchise? It would add to the league coffers and as pointed out give a kinda/sorta travel buddy to Charlotte...



Back to the Wolves. Unless there are more rumblings that leak before then, I suspect we won't hear a thing until the May meeting.

 

[aparch]

Also, LOL at Buccigross, as the every time he excitedly heard and shared that Illinois was investing in the jump to D1, he flat out *missed* St. Thomas, Long Island, Lindenwood, and Augustana.

Meanwhile Illinois announced a year ago that they won't be adding hockey.

 

[axecrew]

Gwinnett to AHL is interesting. (The rumored NHL expansion to ATL is delirious at best, but I've been wrong before.)

The Gladiators play in an 11.3k seat arena, which is right sized for the AHL, and would be the second smallest rink in the NHL, smallest if you don't count Mullett Arena in Tempe. (WPG's Canada Life Centre is just 2k bigger than ATL's Gas South Arena.)

The last couple times the AHL ran into "expansion" issues was 2009 when the Chops were suspended for using the franchise as collateral on a loan and the league allowed Dallas to start the Texas Stars as an associate membership (on the plan and hopes that the Chops sold their AHL franchise). Then again in 2015 with the oft reminded Norfolk attempt at going it without an affiliation and being told to enjoy paying for a franchise with no schedule. Would the AHL sell a 33rd franchise? It would add to the league coffers and as pointed out give a kinda/sorta travel buddy to Charlotte...



Back to the Wolves. Unless there are more rumblings that leak before then, I suspect we won't hear a thing until the May meeting.

I think you are being very GENEROUS with that analogy...If memory serves...Anaheim was their NHL parent and they wanted to move out west with the others...there were no affiliations available for norfolk to latch onto and they were told that they either had to sell the franchise to Anaheim or the AHL wouldn't schedule any games for them as an independent going forward...so basically they were strong armed into selling by David Andrews and the AHL. They caved and sold the franchise. It had not 1 thing to do with them going independent and everything with the AHL and more so the NHL getting what they wanted.
So a totally different scenario than is present today...The AHL won't be creating a new franchise for Carolina. Now could the AHL board of govs decide to freeze Chicago out? Maybe...but I doubt it would end well since they'd being dealing with a pissed off Billionaire and trying to eliminate a team with over 4 million in ticket revenue and the number 4 team in attendance this year. Not to mention it being a MAJOR market for both travel and in general for a league starving for any kind of attention.
My thinking is they will just allow Chicago to go independent and hope it's a disaster...or try to mend fences somewhere with someone to bring in 32 affiliated teams again. Cause god help them if the Wolves go independent and it works...Can you imagine the Wolves playing by the rules and winning again or at least going deep....I already know that there has been a ton of calls from players and coaches to Wendell Young wanting to come here...in fact I spoke to one coach who told me he had a call in and would love to come to Chicago.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

No one said just because an arena is being built that they get a team. In fact, I’ve been one of the ones saying that.

Two insiders, not 7 or 8, one here in Philly, said JVR was being moved, one (Friedman) to Detroit, and then it was adequately refuted. It was reported on why it was believed to be happening, and the reason is that one team thought there was a deal, and another didn’t. By the way, Friedman was the first one who said the Wolves were going independent.

I don’t care that Buccigross got Illinois wrong quite frankly, there’s likely a reason that happened, because things happen. And I also don’t care because it’s one thing and I know they still know more than me. He knew Tortorella was coming here before anyone ‘reported’ on it. The Alpharetta thing was not being mentioned at all, and then he said it, and now they’re doing it. He said it, so did Weekes, and they were right. Sometimes people miss, that is not a common thing, but when they’re right, they’re right. They still don’t put things out there to fecklessly purport bullshit and risk credibility.

And I don’t think anyone ever said Quebec was definitely getting a team. They’ve been there, and have wanted it, and have not been obliged. For someone who seems to be an expert on reporting, you don’t have many of your facts right.

Kevin Weekes and John Buccigross have been saying Atlanta is getting a team.

For the JVR trade, the "insiders" on Fansided reported it, Friedman reported it as a done deal, Darren Dreger didn't say it was a done deal but said it was close to being done which could have been accurate. And who cares if Friedman was the first one to break Chicago going independent? If he is fairly frequently incorrect, he isn't a reliable source. He is an insider, where sometimes what he says pans out and sometimes it doesn't. Until the news is actually released, you could throw in the mailman's opinion as well.

Buccigross incorrectly predicted Illinois while flat out ignoring or missing out on the Lindenwood, Augustana, and LIU jumps. So what he correctly pointed out something? If he gets something right 50% of the time, you can take anyone on HFB and give them a verified Twitter page because HFB members can guess with the best of them.

For insiders reporting Québec's eventual return to the NHL, I urge you to look into Chris Johnston's Twitter account and give Adam Proteau's articles a good read before saying I don't have my facts right. Dany Dubé said it was an eventuality after the Senators agreement to play games in Québec. I am sure I could find more other than ones off the top of my head, but I think I've done more than disprove your point that no one every said Québec City was definitely getting a team. Jeff Marek and Elliot Freedman responded to one of those two specifically and called PK Péladeau some not nice things. I never claimed to be an expert on reporting, I just claimed that reporting news based on the word from people who have demonstrably gotten things wrong in the past is flat out nuts. Which it is. If you think I'm claiming to be the know all be all Nostradamus, I am not doing that. But saying something is going to happen being Weekes and Buccigross are dropping hints will leave you high and dry.

 

[aparch]

...Not to mention it being a MAJOR market for both travel and in general for a league starving for any kind of attention.
...

And yet how many out-of-division games do the Wolves get scheduled every year? How many Pacific, North, and Atlantic teams have flown in across the street from the arena and *drove past* the Wolves to get to other AHL opponents? How many times did the Wolves whine that "we don't want to fly out to the Pacific coast in February because that's when we should be playing division opponents."

I mean, good on them if they can pull this off.

 

[GKJ]

Kevin Weekes and John Buccigross have been saying Atlanta is getting a team.

For the JVR trade, the "insiders" on Fansided reported it, Friedman reported it as a done deal, Darren Dreger didn't say it was a done deal but said it was close to being done which could have been accurate. And who cares if Friedman was the first one to break Chicago going independent? If he is fairly frequently incorrect, he isn't a reliable source. He is an insider, where sometimes what he says pans out and sometimes it doesn't. Until the news is actually released, you could throw in the mailman's opinion as well.

Buccigross incorrectly predicted Illinois while flat out ignoring or missing out on the Lindenwood, Augustana, and LIU jumps. So what he correctly pointed out something? If he gets something right 50% of the time, you can take anyone on HFB and give them a verified Twitter page because HFB members can guess with the best of them.

For insiders reporting Québec's eventual return to the NHL, I urge you to look into Chris Johnston's Twitter account and give Adam Proteau's articles a good read before saying I don't have my facts right. Dany Dubé said it was an eventuality after the Senators agreement to play games in Québec. I am sure I could find more other than ones off the top of my head, but I think I've done more than disprove your point that no one every said Québec City was definitely getting a team. Jeff Marek and Elliot Freedman responded to one of those two specifically and called PK Péladeau some not nice things. I never claimed to be an expert on reporting, I just claimed that reporting news based on the word from people who have demonstrably gotten things wrong in the past is flat out nuts. Which it is. If you think I'm claiming to be the know all be all Nostradamus, I am not doing that. But saying something is going to happen being Weekes and Buccigross are dropping hints will leave you high and dry.

No, actually, you’re the one in dispute here. Insiders are roughly 50% at best. Or whatever ‘frequently’ is, these guys wouldn’t have jobs if they’re actual reporting, while maybe not 100%, was ‘frequently’ wrong, but that one of your claims. You believe that. Support your claims. All of them.

You also can’t say something that someone didn’t report makes them wrong. Buccigross is not wrong for not reporting on LIU and Lindenwood. Not having information doesn’t make it incorrect not the reporter unreliable, because they don’t report information they find unreliable.

I’m talking actual reports too. This thread is active based on a report that you’re telling us we should not believe. Actual sourced material. Not off-handed, non-contextualized guesses or other unsolicited discourse.

Bonus points for, like, ‘Kevin Weekes has been saying Atlanta is getting a team.’ (I know Buccigross has, to be clear I do find him less reliable because he isn’t an actual insider) As a definitive report, you should produce where and when he said that.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

No, actually, you’re the one in dispute here. Insiders are roughly 50% at best. Or whatever ‘frequently’ is, these guys wouldn’t have jobs if they’re actual reporting, while maybe not 100%, was ‘frequently’ wrong, but that one of your claims. You believe that. Support your claims. All of them.

You also can’t say something that someone didn’t report makes them wrong. Buccigross is not wrong for not reporting on LIU and Lindenwood. Not having information doesn’t make it incorrect not the reporter unreliable, because they don’t report information they find unreliable.

I’m talking actual reports too. This thread is active based on a report that you’re telling us we should not believe. Actual sourced material. Not off-handed, non-contextualized guesses or other unsolicited discourse.

Bonus points for, like, ‘Kevin Weekes has been saying Atlanta is getting a team.’ (I know Buccigross has, to be clear I do find him less reliable because he isn’t an actual insider) As a definitive report, you should produce where and when he said that.

I said 50% of the time word for word in the previous post, so it looks like you don't read very well because that is actually something we agree one.

I am saying he flat out missed out on news that did occur, in an area of the sport he has historically reported on in the past like he did with Penn State and Arizona State. That would support my previous points about him not being very well plugged in.

Kevin Weekes had this to say in response to someone saying the Thrashers would be the 33rd or 34th team while tagging the NHL: . The emoji was clearly a reference to him drawing up attention to the upcoming post of:

That is pretty definitively linking the NHL and Atlanta

 

[GKJ]

I said 50% of the time word for word in the previous post, so it looks like you don't read very well because that is actually something we agree one.

I am saying he flat out missed out on news that did occur, in an area of the sport he has historically reported on in the past like he did with Penn State and Arizona State. That would support my previous points about him not being very well plugged in.

Kevin Weekes had this to say in response to someone saying the Thrashers would be the 33rd or 34th team while tagging the NHL: . The emoji was clearly a reference to him drawing up attention to the upcoming post of:

That is pretty definitively linking the NHL and Atlanta

‘Pretty definitively,’ while making it clear that he’s withholding information he has or believes he has, you’re saying him retweeting something no more innocuous than me saying ‘we’re going to expand again’ is him reporting this as fact? Something that theoretically could be confirmed?


This Georgia arena project, it was announced today, yes or no?


I think the issue here is you are cloudy at best on what is actual reporting, facts or beliefs, or not having proper context.

 

[axecrew]

And yet how many out-of-division games do the Wolves get scheduled every year? How many Pacific, North, and Atlantic teams have flown in across the street from the arena and *drove past* the Wolves to get to other AHL opponents? How many times did the Wolves whine that "we don't want to fly out to the Pacific coast in February because that's when we should be playing division opponents."

I mean, good on them if they can pull this off.

You are preaching to the choir on this as I have gone round and round about this with Wolves management for years now including this one...Believe I know the numbers because I have talked to the people within the organizations about it. It has never been about the whole division opponents BS...In the beginning it was about playing them in their rink in march when theyve played less games and a competitive disadvantage for Chicago...after being ripped by season ticket holders and fans alike about it they decided theyd play some of those teams the second year and the AHL said nope...you didnt want to play them last year you can listen to the bitching another year...now it's just about being cheap and not wanting to spend the money.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

‘Pretty definitively,’ while making it clear that he’s withholding information he has or believes he has, you’re saying him retweeting something no more innocuous than me saying ‘we’re going to expand again’ is him reporting this as fact? Something that theoretically could be confirmed?


This Georgia arena project, it was announced today, yes or no?


I think the issue here is you are cloudy at best on what is actual reporting, facts or beliefs, or not having proper context.

Was the Georgia arena project announced today? No.

Was the proposal announced today? Yes.

 

[GKJ]

Was the Georgia arena project announced today? No.

Was the proposal announced today? Yes.

No, this is the project. Part of a project is all the proposals.

 

[adsfan]

And yet how many out-of-division games do the Wolves get scheduled every year? How many Pacific, North, and Atlantic teams have flown in across the street from the arena and *drove past* the Wolves to get to other AHL opponents? How many times did the Wolves whine that "we don't want to fly out to the Pacific coast in February because that's when we should be playing division opponents."

I mean, good on them if they can pull this off.

I looked at Milwaukee's schedule. They played 9 (25%) road games out of division, from San Diego to Springfield and 3 cities in Canada. The remaining 27 road games had 6 against Chicago, 5 vs Rockford with 4 each against GR, IA, MB and TEX for 13 different opponents.

Chicago played 6 (17%) road games out of division with 4 at Cleveland and 2 at Tucson. The Wolves didn't visit as many places as the Admirals did (8 different opponents), but Milwaukee skipped Cleveland this season. That is Milwaukee's longest bus trip.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Gwinnett to AHL is interesting. (The rumored NHL expansion to ATL is delirious at best, but I've been wrong before.)

The Gladiators play in an 11.3k seat arena, which is right sized for the AHL, and would be the second smallest rink in the NHL, smallest if you don't count Mullett Arena in Tempe. (WPG's Canada Life Centre is just 2k bigger than ATL's Gas South Arena.)

The last couple times the AHL ran into "expansion" issues was 2009 when the Chops were suspended for using the franchise as collateral on a loan and the league allowed Dallas to start the Texas Stars as an associate membership (on the plan and hopes that the Chops sold their AHL franchise). Then again in 2015 with the oft reminded Norfolk attempt at going it without an affiliation and being told to enjoy paying for a franchise with no schedule. Would the AHL sell a 33rd franchise? It would add to the league coffers and as pointed out give a kinda/sorta travel buddy to Charlotte...



Back to the Wolves. Unless there are more rumblings that leak before then, I suspect we won't hear a thing until the May meeting.

except, Anson Carter would have to bail on Atlanta 12 months after buying into the franchise..... the Atlanta GlADIATORS are not being promoted any time soon if ever..... in fact, it's the opposite..... the lease is now indefinite in Duluth..... and no credible rumor

 

[GKJ]

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Yeah, the Wolves definitely don't like being told what to do.

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah, the Wolves definitely don't like being told what to do.

Including when they are playing an inferior veteran goalie over a prospect who outplayed him in the regular season and playoffs.

 

[axecrew]

This all kinda validifies everything that I've said in this thread and others huh?

 

[GKJ]

This all kinda validifies everything that I've said in this thread and others huh?

It’s probably been difficult for the Wolves to affiliate with anyone for their own reasons, and as an independent ownership, I don’t disagree with their philosophies. They have always been in the business to serve their fans and their market and that’s not necessarily the goal of most teams, or the league itself. They’ve changed affiliations however many times they have (whether it be because of that or because someone lost the musical chairs game), and maintained a stronghold working against an NHL team in their market. Others have failed at what other old IHL teams failed to do, which is to remain viable.

I think there’s room as the second league in North America to do what they want to do, so I hope that this works for them.

 

[axecrew]

It’s probably been difficult for the Wolves to affiliate with anyone for their own reasons, and as an independent ownership, I don’t disagree with their philosophies. They have always been in the business to serve their fans and their market and that’s not necessarily the goal of most teams, or the league itself. They’ve changed affiliations however many times they have (whether it be because of that or because someone lost the musical chairs game), and maintained a stronghold working against an NHL team in their market. Others have failed at what other old IHL teams failed to do, which is to remain viable.

I think there’s room as the second league in North America to do what they want to do, so I hope that this works for them.

I agree with the majority of what you said and as you said and Patrick Williams said so perfectly...while the NHL clubs goal is to develop their young players, the independent AHL ownerships groups have to balance that along with putting butts in the seats to pay the bills. The part of what you said I have a disagreement with is the part about it's been hard for them to affiliate with teams. Everyone wants to focus on the last maybe 10 years or so...prior to that the Wolves were affiliated with the same team for 10 years, coincidently also ran by Don Waddell just without the interference of ownership like in Carolina, That agreement only went away because the team went away in Atlanta. Vancouver was a fine agreement until they decided they wanted to own their own team...ditto with Vegas. The only contentious agreement that played out bad before now was with St Louis.
And as was stated in the first part of the interview with Wendell Young...Carolina decided to change the rules as far back as the 2022 Calder Cup Finals. Tell me any other affiliation where the AHL club has to submit the roster to the NHL before every game for approval? Carolina has been burning these bridges for a long time as far back as the Charlotte days and now we can see why they split when they did. Bill Daly has even said that he tried to help these 2 come to some sort of agreement for 6 weeks? or more and finally gave up because carolina wouldn't budge on their stance. It's also VERY telling, if true, that 8-10 NHL teams have reached out to Chicago to place players there this season...sounds to me like it's not Chicago that is the problem when 1/3 of the NHL wants to work with you in some capacity. And isn't it funny that, if the AHL is supposed to be a strictly developmental league,Hockey Hall of Famer Steve Yzerman fired the coaching staff of the independently owned Grand Rapids Griffins because missing the playoffs 2 yrs in a row was unacceptable? But winniing doesn't matter. I think I'll take Yzerman's opinion on whether winning at the AHL level matters or not over the clown that owns carolina. And let's not forget about independently owned Hershey who just won another cup this year.
One last thing about carolina...anyone see a pattern here? Charlotte wins the Calder Cup in 2019...a year later the affiliate won't renew their affiliation with carolina due to issues and difference in philosophies..and here we are next affiliation with carolina wins a cup and a year later same result same problem. But Chicago is the problem...ok

 

[GKJ]

I agree with the majority of what you said and as you said and Patrick Williams said so perfectly...while the NHL clubs goal is to develop their young players, the independent AHL ownerships groups have to balance that along with putting butts in the seats to pay the bills. The part of what you said I have a disagreement with is the part about it's been hard for them to affiliate with teams. Everyone wants to focus on the last maybe 10 years or so...prior to that the Wolves were affiliated with the same team for 10 years, coincidently also ran by Don Waddell just without the interference of ownership like in Carolina, That agreement only went away because the team went away in Atlanta. Vancouver was a fine agreement until they decided they wanted to own their own team...ditto with Vegas. The only contentious agreement that played out bad before now was with St Louis.
And as was stated in the first part of the interview with Wendell Young...Carolina decided to change the rules as far back as the 2022 Calder Cup Finals. Tell me any other affiliation where the AHL club has to submit the roster to the NHL before every game for approval? Carolina has been burning these bridges for a long time as far back as the Charlotte days and now we can see why they split when they did. Bill Daly has even said that he tried to help these 2 come to some sort of agreement for 6 weeks? or more and finally gave up because carolina wouldn't budge on their stance. It's also VERY telling, if true, that 8-10 NHL teams have reached out to Chicago to place players there this season...sounds to me like it's not Chicago that is the problem when 1/3 of the NHL wants to work with you in some capacity. And isn't it funny that, if the AHL is supposed to be a strictly developmental league,Hockey Hall of Famer Steve Yzerman fired the coaching staff of the independently owned Grand Rapids Griffins because missing the playoffs 2 yrs in a row was unacceptable? But winniing doesn't matter. I think I'll take Yzerman's opinion on whether winning at the AHL level matters or not over the clown that owns carolina. And let's not forget about independently owned Hershey who just won another cup this year.
One last thing about carolina...anyone see a pattern here? Charlotte wins the Calder Cup in 2019...a year later the affiliate won't renew their affiliation with carolina due to issues and difference in philosophies..and here we are next affiliation with carolina wins a cup and a year later same result same problem. But Chicago is the problem...ok

I agree, it sounds like Carolina is the issue and I’m assuming Dundon, who we’ve heard wants to be the Jerry Jones on the NHL, ain’t much interested in owning an AHL team. And other owners don’t seem to be willing to be subservient to him.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Tell me any other affiliation where the AHL club has to submit the roster to the NHL before every game for approval?

It happens more than you think, especially with teams that are owned and operated by the NHL club.

That said, Dundon and Carolina are the problem here, not Chicago. There's no better way to build a winning culture in an organization that to set a goal of winning at all levels. A team that isn't committed to having its prospects in a culture of winning in the minors shouldn't be surprised when they get to the NHL and don't give a shit about winning.

 

[axecrew]

I agree, it sounds like Carolina is the issue and I’m assuming Dundon, who we’ve heard wants to be the Jerry Jones on the NHL, ain’t much interested in owning an AHL team. And other owners don’t seem to be willing to be subservient to him.

Exactly...Almost makes you wonder if this is why carolina can't get over the hump and win. For the last few years we've heard about how good they are and how the window is open etc. Guess someone forget to tell them to also open the screen(Dundon) in order to get through it.
One other thing that came to mind...during the '22 Calder Finals carolina threatened to fire coach for playing Lyon ahead of Kochetkov. A couple of things come to mind...1) Is this why Lyon flew the double bird towards the stands after the final buzzer in Springfield? Not at the fans but at canes brass who was sitting in that same general area?
2) If the canes were willing to fire the Wolves coach during the finals for not playing Kochetkov...what changed now? Since they thought he was the end all be all...what changed...is it possible that the Wolves staff knows a little bit more about him then carolina's even back then? If he's the "annointed" one why did carolina go out this off season and resign BOTH FA goaltenders and create a logjam of their own making at the position? Either he has to go to the AHL or they carry 3 which won't work for long.

 

[axecrew]

It happens more than you think, especially with teams that are owned and operated by the NHL club.

That said, Dundon and Carolina are the problem here, not Chicago. There's no better way to build a winning culture in an organization that to set a goal of winning at all levels. A team that isn't committed to having its prospects in a culture of winning in the minors shouldn't be surprised when they get to the NHL and don't give a shit about winning.

Yes I'm sure it happens but you also hit the key words...NHL owned...granted I know that the wolves and their parent club will talk often about the line up and what they expect from each other etc, but to tell your minor league affiliates coach to not worry about winning and to have to approve the line up before each game is WAAAAAYYYYY beyond the scope of the affiliation under normal circumstances. And yes carolina is really being exposed right now for all to see...Good Luck finding another independent franchise to affiliate with you after hearing and reading all of this. And the AHL isn't granting a 33rd team until the NHL does, so that route is out. Gotta wonder if maybe the canes mgt and owner are sitting there now and saying..."shit i think we F'd this one up"

 

[jabberoski]

And isn't it funny that, if the AHL is supposed to be a strictly developmental league,Hockey Hall of Famer Steve Yzerman fired the coaching staff of the independently owned Grand Rapids Griffins because missing the playoffs 2 yrs in a row was unacceptable? But winniing doesn't matter. I think I'll take Yzerman's opinion on whether winning at the AHL level matters or not over the clown that owns carolina.

That isn't funny at all. AHL coaches are hired by the affiliate, even for the independently owned teams.

Both Brock Sheahan and Ryan Warsofsky were Carolina hires, and the coaches in Grand Rapids are hired by the Red Wings.

 

[axecrew]

That isn't funny at all. AHL coaches are hired by the affiliate, even for the independently owned teams.

Both Brock Sheahan and Ryan Warsofsky were Carolina hires, and the coaches in Grand Rapids are hired by the Red Wings.

You completely and totally missed my point! My point was and simply is... Stevie Y...first ballot hockey hall of famer and architect of those great Tampa Bay teams FIRED someone I know personally as his head coach of their affiliate BECAUSE THEY MISSED THE PLAYOFFS 2 YRS IN A ROW!!!!! Thus underscoring mine and other people's argument, including Yzerman's, that it is important to win as well as develop players at the AHL level!! And that players develop better in a winning environment. The whole only develop not win is an approach taken by a few teams, but the majority of the teams including NHL owned want their affiliate to win and go deep into the playoffs That was my point with my comment. Guarantee neither Seattle nor Nashville were upset their affiliates went to the Western Finals and in the case of Seattle the Calder Cup Finals.