Worse signature move, Hextall / JR:

[The Old Master]

The worst move was never showing Sullivan THE DOOR!

.fixed

 

[Pens x]

In a league that loves to recycle management and dinosaurs, I would be shocked if Hextall ever gets another half decent job. He might land an advisor or scouting role, but that’s about it. To JR’s credit, he found another respectable job.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

The take of Granlund being a worse acquisition than JJ seems to be purely revisionist history or recency bias.

Granlund is a mediocre player making too much money. Johnson was arguably the worst player in all of hockey. You can get serviceable results with Granlund by throwing him out in an offensive heavy, PP specialist type of role. You can't throw JJ out in any NHL role and get serviceable results.

Also to add on the Granlund/Johnson debate, adding the impact of the added cap space from the moves right before the Granlund trade ignores the same thing happened with adding Johnson. The Penguins traded Sheary to get out of Hunwick's contract on Day 2 of the NHL draft in 2018. It's the same exact kind of move that Hextall made when he got out of Kapanen and McGinn's deals only to bring in Granlund. JR cleared out cap space and gave out a horrendous deal to JJ.

Like I said, it's recency bias to say Granlund was a worse acquisition than JJ.



So you mean he'll produce if he's used in a proper role? How is that a negative against him?

Because producing 50-60 points when you are giving those opportunities is not sufficient if you want to have a competitive team.

I call it the David Desharnais effect. Heck, you could also call it the Max Domi or the Dick Tarnstrom effect. Basically the "someone gotta produce on an offensively deprived team" effect.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because producing 50-60 points when you are giving those opportunities is not sufficient if you want to have a competitive team.

I call it the David Desharnais effect. Heck, you could also call it the Max Domi or the Dick Tarnstrom effect. Basically the "someone gotta produce on an offensively deprived team" effect.

I agree with this 100%, that’s exactly what I meant when I was talking about him. But that has value for a bad team. JJ doesn’t offer any value to any team.

 

[Captain Hook]

I don't think the Reaves deal really moved the needle one way or the other. I think the bigger issue on lines 3 and 4 after the back to back Cups was that Bonino and Cullen were both gone. I think Reaves would have been fine if one of those guys was his center. We were trying to replace those two critical depth centers (Bones and Cullen) with Riley Sheahan and Greg McKegg at one point . JR did eventually understand that wasn't going to work and got Brassard but he was another bad Granlund-esque fit. He was a guy that played lots of PP and offensive situations in Ottawa, NYR and Columbus. Bones and Cullen thrived in the tough minutes at ES, on the PK and defensive situations and consequently were perfect 3rd/4th line center depth behind Sid and Geno. Guys like Granlund and Brassard were just never going to fit. It's not really their fault. They are who they are. Management should have known they wouldn't fit for the obvious reasons I stated.

Jack Johnson was what some people accuse the Steelers of with the whole nepotism thing. Basically Sid's buddy got bankrupted by his parents and the Pens stepped up and signed him for a bunch of money. The Pens deny that but I'll always believe the Sid connection played a bit of a factor there.

The Granlund trade this year brought back memories for me of the time the Pirates traded for Matt Morris. A move that quickly looked so bad that it was a fireable offense.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Yeah the Granlund deal was so horrific and wrongheaded it almost felt like sabotage by a guy who knew his head was gonna roll. You can't even sell it as top six insurance for next year because he quite obviously isn't capable of that.

The cap implications are a good point. It was the one win I could see going out of this miserable year. And that move more or less squashed even that small silver lining with one fell swoop.

In my eyes it was his worst move. Like a big middle finger when going out the door with still having to eat that salary the following season when that 5 million could be much better spent on a player that FITS.

It makes it worse because he had a green light to go and get a big fish (I give him some credit he tried Miller/Chychrun) but he still came up empty with a constellation prize of Granlund which he has to own.

I know Crosby and Geno would never say it but just think coming to the end of the line, and right there in the thick of things to make the playoffs. Your GM has a greenlight to grab a difference maker and comes back to you with Granlund. "Here you go boys good luck"

 

[molon labe]

@Empoleon8771

Two sides of a strong debate here: I argue Granlund because his bad deal hurts THIS Pens team more than the bad JJ deal hurt that Pens team then. Absolutely semantical - but I truly believe that our cap space means more now, than ever. With a declining (in dominance if not performance/points) Sid/Geno, this Pens team can ill afford mistakes on its' roster. Each one of them stands out significantly more.

We used to be able to carry a Kahun/Simon in the top 6 and win games. Try doing that today. I won't argue that the two deals are not both horrendous (to my point above JJ is STILL hurting us), but having 5M sit on your 3rd line when that 5M can't perform on a third line is atrocious.

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Empoleon8771

Two sides of a strong debate here: I argue Granlund because his bad deal hurts THIS Pens team more than the bad JJ deal hurt that Pens team then. Absolutely semantical - but I truly believe that our cap space means more now, than ever. With a declining (in dominance if not performance/points) Sid/Geno, this Pens team can ill afford mistakes on its' roster. Each one of them stands out significantly more.

We used to be able to carry a Kahun/Simon in the top 6 and win games. Try doing that today. I won't argue that the two deals are not both horrendous (to my point above JJ is STILL hurting us), but having 5M sit on your 3rd line when that 5M can't perform on a third line is atrocious.

I would easily argue the 2018-2021 Penguins were substantially better contenders than the 2023 and onwards Penguins, so having JJ sink those teams hurt more potential cup runs than Granlund now.

The Penguins brought in JJ like a year after winning their 2nd of back to back cups. They still had a basically prime aged core with Kessel and Hornqvist continuing to be effective players. Having JJ, specifically playing JJ-Schultz behind Malkin, was way more detrimental to a team that had more legitimate cup aspirations. The team today isn't a cup contender any more, so having Granlund isn't preventing them from being this true contender or anything like that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Guys guys... let's not quarrel! They can BOTH be extremely awful clownshow moves that set the team back a season or two and that probably resulted in the rest of the league's GMs all getting on a conference call together simply to point and laugh, OK? We can all win by losing, here.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Thinking it's Granlund now.

JJ was signed at the start of free agency. I mean, that's supposed to be stupid season. And at that time the cap was presumed to be going up.

Granlund came together while the RSN thing was blowing up and it is clear that cap is going to be flat (at best) for a few years. It was "I've already budgeted to spend my 2nd round pick, fans are chanting for me to be fired and uhhhhh...I know his name and Pryor likes him."

I wanted to give him a chance because of how bad Carter was. But he just has nothing out there. He's $5M Dom Simon.

 

[Jobeycool]

Those are some of the worst NHL trades in the history of the NHL... makes you wonder if Hextall even knows what he is doing.. Like trading guys for guys just to say I got a guy.

 

[BHD]

They’re all bad - just in different ways.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

JJ still won a cup with Colorado after. He must have been ok for something even though he played 15-18 mins a game throughout the season, while dropping to 8-10 in their playoffs

He could have been sheltered and serviceable here. He was forced up with all the injuries we had (man that sounds so familiar for this team) playing in situations he definitely shouldn't have.

Weren't him and Guds our top pairing for stints during that season just b/c all the injuries?

Granlund can't be sheltered he needs to fit and at 5 million that's a top 6 winger at this point in the game. I know I don't want him stapled to Geno for a year. So it's a pricey 3rd liner or someone who's best bet to succeed is with Geno and that's not what this team needs at this point in Geno's career.

EoD they are both bad trades but Hextall not making the playoffs b/c he didn't put a roster together and doing nothing at the TDL is the reason he's gone.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Worst move was whoever decided to hire Hextall in the first place. All of his transactions were mind-boggling.

 

[The GM]

I don’t think it’s fair to say JJ was worst until we know all the facts, we are still waiting for GMJR to disclose the reason he was benched in Columbus, all we know as of now was it wasn’t performance based

 

[SomeDude]

I call it the David Desharnais effect. Heck, you could also call it the Max Domi or the Dick Tarnstrom effect. Basically the "someone gotta produce on an offensively deprived team" effect.

It’s actually now called the Jared McCann effect.

 

[Pens x]

Those are some of the worst NHL trades in the history of the NHL... makes you wonder if Hextall even knows what he is doing.. Like trading guys for guys just to say I got a guy.

He had no idea what he was doing, and I’ll never understand why it took some fans so long to realize it.

The whole it’s okay, he’s just being patient approach was hysterical. He’s a builder! Good lord, it was a long 2 + years on this site listening to people defend him until the very end.

 

[SomeDude]

I don’t think it’s fair to say JJ was worst until we know all the facts, we are still waiting for GMJR to disclose the reason he was benched in Columbus, all we know as of now was it wasn’t performance based

He’s got the same crack team working on it that are finishing up Eugene Melnyk’s Matt Cooke Bladegate investigation.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Ah, the Ponikarovsky effect. A classic.

But seriously, I have no idea how anyone can vote Granlund. The guy sucks and he's a bad fit, but he isn't arguably, if not unanimously, the worst player in the entire NHL like Jack Johnson was before we got him and throughout his entire tenure as a Penguin.

I genuinely gotta wonder if people, as like a defense mechanism or something, voided the part of their memory that holds just how truly abysmal a player Jack Johnson was (is). Take Jeff Carter's absolute worst days and that's Jack Johnson's every game.

 

[Zero Pucks]

The thing that makes me hate the Granlund trade the most is that we gave up a 2nd for a player that I wouldn't have picked up on waivers for free. We're a team desperate to rebuild our prospect cupboard and that's what we do? Plus it completely screws up any moves we could make in FA or via trade with his atrocious cap hit. It's just a bad move all around with no logic behind it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I will say this... I never saw Granlund do something this hilariously incompetent:

 

[Gurglesons]

Granlund is just a bad fit and old skill guy that can't make up for his deficiencies.

Jack Johnson is one of the worst defensemen in the league over the last ten years and we gave him a five year contract we are still paying.

His pairing lost us the Montreal series.

He was the worst player on the ice in the Islanders series.

We had to pay significant money to buy him out.

There is no world in which it is Granlund. Granlund honestly has little effect on our a cap picture next year.

Plus the Granlund move basically got Hextall fired. Our GM and coach consistently defended the Jack Johnson deal and they got to put the team in the position they are in now.

 

[ChaosAgent]

JJ Played on the cup winner last year for $1M, so $2.5M overpaid.

Granlund is at least $2.5M overpaid.

How does "Granlund have little effect on our cap picture." If we simply replaced him with Dom Simon and never had his contract we'd have $4M more cap space.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I will say this... I never saw Granlund do something this hilariously incompetent:

All joking aside, that was one of my favorite hockey moments of the era. Just absolute, concentrated and refined ineptitude on display in hilarious fashion. I belly laugh every time I watch it because it's so absurd.

We didn't even see that kinda shit in the XGen years.

 

[pistolpete11]

JJ Played on the cup winner last year for $1M, so $2.5M overpaid.

Granlund is at least $2.5M overpaid.

How does "Granlund have little effect on our cap picture." If we simply replaced him with Dom Simon and never had his contract we'd have $4M more cap space.

JMFJ played 11min in like half of their playoff games, no points, and was towards the bottom of the team in terms of +/-.

They won despite JMFJ, not anything to do with JMFJ.