Worse signature move, Hextall / JR:

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The way Poile got an entire draft from Tampa for Jeannot and unloaded Granlund's ass without retaining salary for a 2nd probably annoyed Trotz. Just imagining Trotz walking in after being named GM like "Hey thanks Dave, way to set the bar high."

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Praying to the good lord that our next GM has some ability with player evaluation.

Yeah. We complain about this team's pro scouting (not even gonna get into amateur scouting and the country club goofs that have been hanging around sucking air there since the friggin' Craig Patrick era) but I have to wonder like... do they actually even DO anything? Oh I'm certain they prepare reports and send them up to the FO but does anyone actually... ya know... pay attention to them or just do whatever they were gonna do, regardless? Seems like a very JR thing to do, anyway.

Sweet gig if you can get it, eh? Strange... sure seems like there are LOTS of executives, coaching staff and whole ass departments on this team that have questionable utility or function and just sort of... exist. And get paid for it.

 

[Gurglesons]

What's funny about both of these moves is none of us are using any hindsight to judge them. They were clearly awful moves at the time. Everyone knew signing JJ was a terrible idea. Everyone knew trading for Granlund was a terrible idea.

Well everyone but JR and Hextall apparently.

Praying to the good lord that our next GM has some ability with player evaluation.

A group of fans on this board defended the JJ contract.

 

[Empoleon8771]

50 points when you're getting fed lots of minutes (including plenty of PP minutes) is not very impressive.

I never said it was anything impressive, but it's certainly NHL caliber.

I honestly don't know how Granlund has more votes here. He's a NHL caliber player that can give you decent results in the right usage. If you use him like an offensive top-6 winger with a lot of powerplay time, he'll give you solid 2nd line production. He's in the same boat as those other overpaid skilled wingers like Hoffman and Dadonov. On the other hand, Johnson wasn't even a NHL caliber.

Trading a 2nd for a guy like Hoffman is a bad deal, but he'll actually provide value if you put him in the right role. The only role that Johnson will provide you positive value is on the other team.

 

[Pancakes]

I never said it was anything impressive, but it's certainly NHL caliber.

I honestly don't know how Granlund has more votes here. He's a NHL caliber player that can give you decent results in the right usage. If you use him like an offensive top-6 winger with a lot of powerplay time, he'll give you solid 2nd line production. He's in the same boat as those other overpaid skilled wingers like Hoffman and Dadonov. On the other hand, Johnson wasn't even a NHL caliber.

Trading a 2nd for a guy like Hoffman is a bad deal, but he'll actually provide value if you put him in the right role. The only role that Johnson will provide you positive value is on the other team.

Granlund seems like the classic tweener guy at this point who isn't good enough to hold down a top six/offensive role but who doesn't really help out too much in a bottom six role either.

Hopefully he has a good off season and can give something more next year. I doubt the Pens buy him out.

100% agree that JJ should be running away with this poll. Granlund trade stank to high heaven, but JJ was even worse, and signed for longer.

 

[Zbynek]

I never said it was anything impressive, but it's certainly NHL caliber.

I honestly don't know how Granlund has more votes here. He's a NHL caliber player that can give you decent results in the right usage. If you use him like an offensive top-6 winger with a lot of powerplay time, he'll give you solid 2nd line production. He's in the same boat as those other overpaid skilled wingers like Hoffman and Dadonov. On the other hand, Johnson wasn't even a NHL caliber.

Trading a 2nd for a guy like Hoffman is a bad deal, but he'll actually provide value if you put him in the right role. The only role that Johnson will provide you positive value is on the other team.

Roster fit and context (timing) was way worse in the Granlund deal. They are both horrendous deals, but the Granlund deal stung more.

That, or recency bias.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I think it's kinda nutty that JJ isn't the unanimous choice. The guy was arguably *the worst player in the league* and JR signed him for 5 years at a decently sized AAV.

Granlund is hot coiled dogshit, but JJ was orders of magnitude worse. Granlund isn't gonna help you win games, but JJ actively f***ing torpedoed the team whenever he jumped over the boards.

 

[Zero Pucks]

It wasn't a bad move. The Coach destroyed the move. Reaves was a huge part of Vegas cup march the very same year.

But let's blame JR. I started hammering about Sully's reliance on Soff players in 18, where he banished every player with grit. 5 years of results have proven me to be 100% spot on.

But again, blame JR>

That's what I think. We were on a f***ing roll with Reaves in 2017-18 right before the trade deadline, a three-peat definitely seemed possible, and then the wheels fell off right after the deadline. Meanwhile Reaves and Vegas went to the Stanley Cup finals.

Sully and his love for everything soff has taken a toll on the team imo. We look like a group of f***ing nuns getting mugged in a back ally every-night. It's awful to watch, I can't imagine how awful it is to play through that shit almost every game. The shut-up and play mentality can work in the postseason, but not 5+ full seasons of it. A little bit of grit and sticking up for your teammates really wouldn't hurt this team. But Sully is completely allergic to it.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I feel like people have forgotten about that horrid JJ-Schultz pairing that was the bane of our existence. JJ did alot more damage than some random third liner could ever do. Not only could Johnson not defend, he was being played behind Geno, hampering that line as well.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's what I think. We were on a f***ing roll with Reaves in 2017-18 right before the trade deadline, a three-peat definitely seemed possible, and then the wheels fell off right after the deadline. Meanwhile Reaves and Vegas went to the Stanley Cup finals.

Sully and his love for everything soff has taken a toll on the team imo. We look like a group of f***ing nuns getting mugged in a back ally every-night. It's awful to watch, I can't imagine how awful it is to play through that shit almost every game. The shut-up and mentality can work in the postseason, but not 5+ full seasons of it. A little bit of grit and sticking up for your teammates really wouldn't this team. But Sully is completely allergic to it.

-edit- The real issue was that Brassard and Geno were injured, and Sully wanted the offensive center in Brassard to be his new Bonino.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's what I think. We were on a f***ing roll with Reaves in 2017-18 right before the trade deadline, a three-peat definitely seemed possible, and then the wheels fell off right after the deadline. Meanwhile Reaves and Vegas went to the Stanley Cup finals.

-edit- The real issue was that Brassard and Geno were injured, and Sully wanted the offensive center in Brassard to be his new Bonino.

Weird how that bottom issue has been an issue with multiple players.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I feel like people have forgotten about that horrid JJ-Schultz pairing that was the bane of our existence. JJ did alot more damage than some random third liner could ever do. Not only could Johnson not defend, he was being played behind Geno, hampering that line as well.

It's the reason I wanted Sully fired in 2020. The way he just sabotaged the f*** out of this team against the Habs by playing those two (at all, let alone together) in important situations just f***ing blew my mind. It was like having two Jeff Carters playing together on a defense pairing and putting them out regularly in all situations.

I started to question whether Sully was the guy after the Isles forecheck just shredded the team and Sully had no answer in 2019, but 2020 was the year that had me entirely convinced.

 

[SEALBound]

After watching those b2b cup runs, if you can't understand why JR traded for Reaves, I'm not quite sure what to tell you.

One thing that JR was actually VERY good in his early time here was being in front of the trends the league would be going. He morphed the team into the super fast demon that it was in 2016 because the trend that was going to win was - fast, skilled, and having scoring prowness on all 4 lines while having a back end that can skate. In BOTH cup runs though, we got battered quite a bit. Malkin was more or less the enforcer for the team in both runs. You had several guys on multiple teams taking liberties with all players. Remember Wilson's knee-on-knee with Sheary? And who did what?

So the strategy was supposed to be - let the other team beat up our guys and just ignore it and hope we get lucky that no one gets hurt? JR saw that speed and skill structure was going to quickly morph into the Speed, skill, AND physicality structure. And low and behold, the Capitals and St. Louis were the next cup champs and both employed that structure.

We took the same player in the 2nd as we would have in the 1st. The deal was more or less Reaves for Sundqvist. Sundqvist didn't do shit for us at time and 4Cs are easy to find. And Reave was here for 3/4 of the season and was meh mostly due to being misused by Sullivan.

So to the people who think that is the worst...you are absolutely outside of your mind. There is a SEVERE detachment from reality or an inability to understand what was going on if you think it is. Especially compared to the duds like Granlund, Johnson, the Brassard deal in hindsight, the Exp Draft and the McCann deal, etc.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

OK so I'm about to do something I didn't think I'd ever do and play a LITTLE devil's advocate re: JJ versus Granlund. If we are to say that "well Granlund would be fine in his correct role" can we not say the same thing is true in regards to JJ considering his role and (relative) success with the Avs? Granted nobody in their right mind ever thought JJ was worth 3.5M for like five years or whatever asinine shit it was (aside from some Penguins fans believe it or not) and I would say his misuse cost this team far worse (Sullivan playing him like 18 minutes a night two playoffs straight) than whatever negligible wet fart of an impact Granlund has had here so far. But still... I think both ideas were equally stupid, at least.

JJ is costing this team dead cap, sure. But I wouldn't rule out that Granlund will be adding to that very soon.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The JJ move was done for the purpose of helping him out after his parents robbed him. Rutherford originally drafted him and felt bad for the dude, understandably. It had nothing to do with Sid. So I can at least understand it. Rutherford was being a human being.

But Granlund is another story. That was delusional. If he's not traded, he could underperform his AAV next year by 3 mil.
The Reaves trade doesn't really bother me that much because those picks usually turn into nothing and Sundqvist was a whatever player for us.
It's not like we lost a lot of cap space and seriously hurt the team. And at least he was good for morale.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The JJ move was done for the purpose of helping him out after his parents robbed him. Rutherford originally drafted him and felt bad for the dude, understandably. It had nothing to do with Sid. So I can at least understand it. Rutherford was being a human being.

But Granlund is another story. That was delusional. If he's not traded, he could underperform his AAV next year by 3 mil.
The Reaves trade doesn't really bother me that much because those picks usually turn into nothing and Sundqvist was a whatever player for us.
It's not like we lost a lot of cap space and seriously hurt the team. And at least he was good for morale.

The doubling down on JJ indicates it was more than that. I feel bad for JJ getting robbed but if the powers that be wanted to give charity it should have been the NHLPA assistance fund or something.

The Granlund move was equally as bad.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Roster fit and context (timing) was way worse in the Granlund deal. They are both horrendous deals, but the Granlund deal stung more.

That, or recency bias.

I don't see either of these as true. The JJ deal directly followed the trade to dump both Sheary and Hunwick. Both of those deals were made directly after getting out of other bad deals. And JJ didn't fit in any sort of roster on this team because he stinks.

OK so I'm about to do something I didn't think I'd ever do and play a LITTLE devil's advocate re: JJ versus Granlund. If we are to say that "well Granlund would be fine in his correct role" can we not say the same thing is true in regards to JJ considering his role and (relative) success with the Avs? Granted nobody in their right mind ever thought JJ was worth 3.5M for like five years or whatever asinine shit it was (aside from some Penguins fans believe it or not) and I would say his misuse cost this team far worse (Sullivan playing him like 18 minutes a night two playoffs straight) than whatever negligible wet fart of an impact Granlund has had here so far. But still... I think both ideas were equally stupid, at least.

JJ is costing this team dead cap, sure. But I wouldn't rule out that Granlund will be adding to that very soon.

Johnson was the same old Johnson with Colorado as where he was everywhere else. Colorado just happened to win with him.



Granlund's "appropriate role" is a 2nd line scorer, where he is still overpaid but can give you a Hoffman, Dadonov or Tatar type of season. The points are what I'd call mostly "empty calories" if that makes sense, but he's still providing some value. Johnson's appropriate role isn't even in the NHL.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The doubling down on JJ indicates it was more than that. I feel bad for JJ getting robbed but if the powers that be wanted to give charity it should have been the NHLPA assistance fund or something.

The Granlund move was equally as bad.

It was even more than doubling down. To a downright weird extent.

JR went so far as to go on a rant even after he took his lolly and ran home about how big bad mean Penguins fans never gave poor JJ a chance. Just a bizarre situation. Like you said I feel bad for the guy but the Penguins were in the midst of trying to be a dynasty... not run a charitable organization.

Granlund's "appropriate role" is a 2nd line scorer, where he is still overpaid but can give you a Hoffman, Dadonov or Tatar type of season. The points are what I'd call mostly "empty calories" if that makes sense, but he's still providing some value. Johnson's appropriate role isn't even in the NHL.

I mean... trust me, here. I'm not defending the guy. I knew full well at the time of the signing he was ECHL caliber. Shit... all it took was watching the Penguins clown him like some kind of broken turnstile every shift against Columbus to know that. I'm just of the opinion that both were egregiously moronic. That's all.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

"I *KNOW* why he was benched and it wasn't due to his play!"

Bizarre time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean... trust me, here. I'm not defending the guy. I knew full well at the time of the signing he was ECHL caliber. Shit... all it took was watching the Penguins clown him like some kind of broken turnstile every shift against Columbus to know that. I'm just of the opinion that both were egregiously moronic. That's all.

Idk, what it comes down to me is ultimately what both of those guys can provide. Granlund can provide NHL caliber results, JJ can't. That's just what it ultimately comes down to for me.

I think Granlund is the kind of player bad teams acquire to put up points in elevated roles. It's the same kind of player type as guys like Drouin, Hoffman and Dadonov that you see putting up good point totals on bad teams. They're the kind of guys who can put up points in an offensive heavy role, but your team is going to be bad if those guys are your first options for that role.

I just don't see any sort of role beyond not playing that Johnson could ever provide value in.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'd argue Granlund deserved more points based on his play here, and he was quite solid defensively.
I'm holding out some hope that he can play at like a 3M value. But yeah never 5...not here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Whenever anyone around here defends Sullivan, or JJ, or Granlund, or Jarry, I just think of this dril tweet



There's no need to like, play devil's advocate or whatever. Sometimes guys are just shitty at their jobs. Oh well.

 

[Zbynek]

I don't see either of these as true. The JJ deal directly followed the trade to dump both Sheary and Hunwick. Both of those deals were made directly after getting out of other bad deals. And JJ didn't fit in any sort of roster on this team because he stinks.

Yea, no and dont get me wrong I'm not trying to pick sides here because this is literally the Penguins equivalent douche or turd sandwich. Like you said, JJ didn't fit into the roster because he stinked, plain and simple. But i wouldn't say it was a zero-fit situation since the announcement of the signing. It was a stab at a reclamation project (albeit, a bad one) who had ties to Sid. There was at least a making of a roster fit and some semblance of a thought process behind it.

Granlund makes no sense in Pittsburgh, and everyone knew it the minute the trade was announced. Even your yinzer grandma who watches a game a year was upset about it.

 

[Giskard]

Granlund is the worst without a doubt for me.

Reaves I actually liked the trade, people went mad for the 1st forgetting about the earlier 2nd that came back, and if he would had been used correctly it would had worth it.
JMFJ was like WTF, but it doesn't come near the disaster trade that is Granlund.

 

[BigEezyE22]

The worst move was never showing Sullivan whose name was higher on the org chart.

Yeah. We complain about this team's pro scouting (not even gonna get into amateur scouting and the country club goofs that have been hanging around sucking air there since the friggin' Craig Patrick era) but I have to wonder like... do they actually even DO anything? Oh I'm certain they prepare reports and send them up to the FO but does anyone actually... ya know... pay attention to them or just do whatever they were gonna do, regardless? Seems like a very JR thing to do, anyway.

Sweet gig if you can get it, eh? Strange... sure seems like there are LOTS of executives, coaching staff and whole ass departments on this team that have questionable utility or function and just sort of... exist. And get paid for it.

I mean...they knew Granlund had chemistry with Zucker from like 6 years ago, so they're obviously doing their due diligence.