WJC: Dec 27 GDT - Canada 6 USA 3
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Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
It's pretty obvious with the spotlight that the Johnsons are under, the amount of minutes they're playing, and the situation they're playing in there is going to be some negative feedback. Both are being asked to bear a tremendous load, and I don't care how good they are-it's probably too much. I've watched a ton of both players this year, and the issues that are cropping up in this tournament have been a rarity. Jack Johnson in particular has really cut down on the stupidity. It's a shame it's popping up right now.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
Do you mean "right now" as in when they are facing better all around competition in the WJC than they regularly face in college hockey? That right now? The issues that are cropping up in this tournament could indeed be related to the fact that they are being asked to step it up against better players, and they aren't, right now, up to this point.
Not saying they aren't studs with big long term upside. But right now, this week, they are college players who are holding onto the puck too long, and are often making poor choices when moving the puck against players with a better overall skill set than those they usually face. The Johnsons will also be asked to step it up yet another notch when they step onto the NHL ice. If any of you expect that they could dominate right now at this age as NHL players as did Dion Phaneuf, I think some of you are in for a big shock.
It looks as if Carolina may have made a good choice taking the bird in the hand versus future potential.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
While the Johnsons (Jack more than Erik) are struggling a bit, I don't see how that has to be a predictor for how they fare in the NHL. Besides, it's not like both players haven't excelled at this level of competition before. Shoot, it was his performance at last year's tourney that virtually sealed the deal for Erik Johnson being the number one overall pick. My point on both players remains: If they would simplify things they would both look a lot better. It would also help if Ron Rolston could spread things around a bit and reign in some of the freewheeling.
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I think that people are really getting caught up over two games, which is particularly silly considering Erik Johnson really hasn't been bad in either game overall. This immediate reaction stuff is pretty unnecessary. EJ has proven he can be successful at this level. I watched him in Vancouver last year at this time be outright dominant. The guy is, to me, hands down the best defensive prospect in the world right now, and two games doesn't change that.
Oilslick941611
Registered User
How about when Erik Johnson scored, were you sleeping then?
Here's all you need to know. When the Blues had both Chris Pronger and Alexander Khavanov, there were periods, games, and maybe one stretch where Khavanov made less mistakes or played better hockey in that limited sample size. But, at the end of the day, one was still Chris Pronger and the other was still Sasha Khavanov. Erik Johnson is still Erik Johnson, the best defensive prospect in hockey. I know that he's an Ameerican, and there are those hypocritical "pompous" Canadian fans who want their boys to be better, but guess what, they're not.
It's funny how people are saying these tournaments mean squat, when it was this very tournament that proppelled Johnson to "superstar" status.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
I don't deny that both Johnsons had a fine tournament last year. I've also watched them both play at the college level. That said, in terms of future development potential, they may both have a long way to go ahead of them, at least as far as making the proper decisions at a much higher speed than they are used to. Yes it is only a two game sample, and it is also a short tournament that waits for no one. Where some of you see future Norris trophy potential, this week (anyway) I am seeing Hatcher type potential.
Neither of them are as NHL ready at this age as was Phaneuf.
Yet many posters here have the gall to complain that Crosby was hyped. Yikes.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
I think it's mistake to use the WJC's as a benchmark for how well a player will do at the next level. There have been too many instances on both sides of that coin to demonstrate the danger of doing that.
Totally agree.They need to start keeping it more simple.I like the fact that they are trying to kickstart a team on the brink with their play,it's a good sign overall but as you said it's not quite under control and leading to some bad outcomes.
it's easy to see both guys potential as players............it's huge.Even with J.Johnson having a bad game yesterday he was still doing things most defensmen(especially at that age) can't do.he got called for roughing but that play where he just comes back and smokes our guy(can't remember who) with pure brute strength and takes him off his skates just shows you what the guy is capable of and is the kind of thing that must have gM'S drooling in the NHL.There was lot's of other stuff too and in both games even when they were making mistakes.
They've got all the potential you could ask for and are already real good.They both just need to put more focus in their games and learn how best to use their gifts(which are more then Staal's and Parents's).The'll both be top players in the nHL iMO.
I'm not sure whther i like EJ better then Jack.I like my defensemen mean and skilled,which jack most assuredly is.We'll see in the next few years though.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
Teams constantly rate players in terms of their development from point a to b. One way to do so is to look at how they fare against better competition. This year, to this point, it would appear that both Johnsons have regressed when asked to step it up in a short tournament played at the end of 2006. Why make excuses for them? They both knew when the games were to be played, they both knew the pressure would be on them, they knew it was a short tournament, it is not as if this should come as any sort of a shock to anyone.
I'm not saying they wont make fine pros , just that at this age their development appears to have paled in comparison to that of Dion Phaneuf at the same age, who is exactly the sort of player we should be comparing them to given where they were drafted and the gross amount of hype the Johnsons receive here. The difference being of course is that Dion is dominating in the bigs right now, while many of you claim the Johnsons will do the same. Some of us just are adopting a wait & see attitude instead of proclaiming them as the next big thing.
I've watched both of them very closely for a few years now. They both do quite a bit of their hitting & checking using their hands more so than positionally using their body frame, which is a huge no no in todays NHL. That may fly in college hockey, but not where it counts. Just saying.
I disagree that Erik Johnson has regressed completely. A 2 game sample size is not nearly enough to judge off of. More than anything else I think this is a matter of expectations. Given the hype and the status of being a number 1 pick the expectations around here are for him to be nearly flawless or else he is disappointing. Last year he didn't have those expectations as he was just a young guy hoping to elevate his draft status. This change of expectations has led some on this board to completely ignore the positive moments (his goal) and focus on the negative (stick toss) Last year, there would have been countless posts raving about his goal, and posts laughing at the stick toss and saying "he'll learn".
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
This is getting a bit ridiculous. Both Johnsons have been undiciplined, but nowhere close to being "busts." All I can hope is the U.S. team as a whole can get it together and still put together a decent tourney. That is certainly possible.
a two game sample size is a great way to judge a player. give it a rest already. we get it, you don't like them because they are the premeir up and coming young Dmen and aren't from Canada.
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
I'm not basing my opinions on either a goal scored nor a stick toss. Both during this tournament and in college, I watch them both quite often using their hands to check down low on the boards and in front of the net instead of using their own bodies positionally. Not saying that they can't change that, or that they are incapable of changing it, just that it is a nuance to their game that needs to change to move onward at the pro level successfully. It is a learned behaviour, one that needs to be retaught. Forget about short sample sizes, I've seen them both use their hands far too much at even the college level.
We can have differing opinions, I'm okay with that. My opinion is that their game does not translate to the NHL as easily nor as immediately as some of you seem to think. D at the pro level takes a long time to learn, and Phaneuf is the exception to that rule. I still think some of you are in for quite a long wait to see your boys as dominant as you seem to think they will be. It may or may not happen. There is no such thing as a sure thing.
We can have differing opinions, I'm okay with that. My opinion is that their game does not translate to the NHL as easily nor as immediately as some of you seem to think. D at the pro level takes a long time to learn, and Phaneuf is the exception to that rule. I still think some of you are in for quite a long wait to see your boys as dominant as you seem to think they will be. It may or may not happen. There is no such thing as a sure thing.
Agree about Rolston, why not bench guys for a few shifts if they are making stupid mistakes? It's like some of these guys know they can do whatever they want and not lose any ice time over it..
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
I agree that neither is as ready for the pro game as Dion was at 18 and 19 years of age, but how many are?
Name the last defenceman 20 or under that was as NHL ready as Phaneuf was when he stepped into the league....Ray Bourque? Perhaps Leetch? It should be noted that Dion would have been in the NHL a year earlier if not for the strike as well; normally Dion would have never had a chance to play in that tournament when he was 19.
The Johnson are coming along just fine; hard to say one way or the other whether they'll be franchise defencemen or not, but all signs still point towards them both being top-notch defencemen. i wish my favourite team had either one of them in the system.
Name the last defenceman 20 or under that was as NHL ready as Phaneuf was when he stepped into the league....Ray Bourque? Perhaps Leetch? It should be noted that Dion would have been in the NHL a year earlier if not for the strike as well; normally Dion would have never had a chance to play in that tournament when he was 19.
The Johnson are coming along just fine; hard to say one way or the other whether they'll be franchise defencemen or not, but all signs still point towards them both being top-notch defencemen. i wish my favourite team had either one of them in the system.
jack johnson played bad against canada but it was nothing worse than that he will pick it up. toews was great and i thought kane would receive american player of the game but oh well those awards are bogus anyways. im liking the physical canadian d and carey price so far.
How you fare in a tournament against the best in your age group is generally a good benchmark on how you will fare against the top competition in the world later on in your career. However, players progress differently and there are many exceptions to the rule.
JJ made some bad plays yesterday and made poor decisions, but he is an emotional player who needs to be on the edge. I blame the coaching for his game as much as the player. A good coach will reign in a player who is letting his emotional/aggressive nature overtake his proper decision-making.
EJ is reminding me a little of Kessel in his performance this year. I see him making similar mistakes from one game to the next. He is trying to do too much and wants to carry the puck into the offensive zone himself too many times. Seeing him get picked off by the German players who were utilizing the trap effectively to funnel him into a poor position over and over again showed no adjustment in his game.
Physical tools and natural ability are great. Hard work is necessary, but one thing that stands out for me in watching a player is how they react to being challenged. Top-level hockey is all about "read & react" and that is the area that scared me most about Kessel last year and that I see a bit in EJ. It is a fundamental that I see in Staal, Bourdon and Parent that makes me think they might end up better pros then JJ & EJ. Lee shouldn't even be mentioned in the same group as those 5 guys.
I didn't know much about Okposo before he was drafted and seeing him in the last two games, I have been impressed. He will be a fantastic pro player. Trevor Lewis has also looked good on his line with great speed.
Kane looked good against the Germans, but not against Canada. I suspect Gagner will be better against the weaker competition as well. Both players will be key players next year. Gagner needs to sit on the bench when the games count.
Sweatt should have been named the top American player yesterday. His speed is elite and that end-to-end rush that set up the second goal was a game turner.
Toews has been Canada's best forward in both games. Little has been virtually invisible ... maybe he can't adjust to playing on the wing?
Staal and Parent get way too much Pierre love on TSN. I think they are great, but I believe that Bourdon and Letang were matched against Backstrom most of the Swedish game and I saw them out there in the last minute against the US. Maybe Pierre is watching a different game then me, but Bourdon and Letang definitely look like the go to pair this year for Canada.
JJ made some bad plays yesterday and made poor decisions, but he is an emotional player who needs to be on the edge. I blame the coaching for his game as much as the player. A good coach will reign in a player who is letting his emotional/aggressive nature overtake his proper decision-making.
EJ is reminding me a little of Kessel in his performance this year. I see him making similar mistakes from one game to the next. He is trying to do too much and wants to carry the puck into the offensive zone himself too many times. Seeing him get picked off by the German players who were utilizing the trap effectively to funnel him into a poor position over and over again showed no adjustment in his game.
Physical tools and natural ability are great. Hard work is necessary, but one thing that stands out for me in watching a player is how they react to being challenged. Top-level hockey is all about "read & react" and that is the area that scared me most about Kessel last year and that I see a bit in EJ. It is a fundamental that I see in Staal, Bourdon and Parent that makes me think they might end up better pros then JJ & EJ. Lee shouldn't even be mentioned in the same group as those 5 guys.
I didn't know much about Okposo before he was drafted and seeing him in the last two games, I have been impressed. He will be a fantastic pro player. Trevor Lewis has also looked good on his line with great speed.
Kane looked good against the Germans, but not against Canada. I suspect Gagner will be better against the weaker competition as well. Both players will be key players next year. Gagner needs to sit on the bench when the games count.
Sweatt should have been named the top American player yesterday. His speed is elite and that end-to-end rush that set up the second goal was a game turner.
Toews has been Canada's best forward in both games. Little has been virtually invisible ... maybe he can't adjust to playing on the wing?
Staal and Parent get way too much Pierre love on TSN. I think they are great, but I believe that Bourdon and Letang were matched against Backstrom most of the Swedish game and I saw them out there in the last minute against the US. Maybe Pierre is watching a different game then me, but Bourdon and Letang definitely look like the go to pair this year for Canada.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
You're absolutely right, but just to add to your comments, what made Dion even more unique was the TYPE of defenceman he is, and how rare it is for physical, bruising types to break into the show at 19.
Also, not to take anything away from the US development program or the folks at their respective universities, but I don't think either Johnson has had the benefit of the same quality of coaching (which was suited perfectly to his style as well) as Phaneuf.
Personally, I do think EJ is a franchise D, but it is always tough to tell at such a young age. JJ will likely be a quality defender as well. Both guys are just fine. Just because they're not Dion Phaneuf at this second (and in all fairness, EJ was remarkable last year) doesn't make them busts.
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