To be honest.. Dont matter to me which OHL franchise moves to my hometown of Hamilton just as long as it's a OHL team
Winnipeg and montreal move their AHL clubs
- Thread starter HamiltonOHL
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To be honest.. Dont matter to me which OHL franchise moves to my hometown of Hamilton just as long as it's a OHL team
When was the OHL a failure in Hamilton? Oh, 25 years ago. By your logic, the OHL should then also not be successful in Guelph, North Bay, or St Catharines, because all of those cities lost a franchise in the past 25-30 years. And, yet, it is.
Well, name one city in Canada where the ECHL has worked.
You're way off base. I have no hatred for the ECHL. Who said anything about the markets not working that the ECHL is moving into AHL markets next year? Talk to the people in Glens Falls and Manchester, not me. I know that Vancouver leaves Utica at some point, never believed otherwise.
I'm well aware of Kalamazoo and Peoria and their IHL and overall hockey heritage. The IHL wasn't always superior to the AHL, certainly not in the Midwestern smaller city days.
All that being said, let me clarify what I said: The ECHL will never work in St Johns. That's my opinion. You have yours, I have mine.
Maybe Utica will get an ECHL team at some point. Hope they aren't under the grip of the NHL like the AHL has become, and appears the ECHL is striving to be. The hockey will be much more entertaining. You said yourself you never go to the Wolves games, even though you have season tickets, and you would prefer the ECHL game.
I don't know if the ECHL will work in New England. Who knows...talk to people in Worcester, Manchester, etc.....Many there don't seem to think so but only time will tell and ticket sales will dictate.
Utica has lost an AHL team before. Probably lose one again. Could another NHL team place their AHL team there? I don't know. It's centrally located, close to other cities, centrally located, Esche and DuRoss run the building, the lease is inexpensive, there is a practice sheet of ice going in next door and last I checked there were still NHL teams located on the East Coast and more specifically the North East. Cheaper bus travel (I know, I know, ye gads...why travel on a bus 40 miles to Syracuse or 90 to Binghamton when you can get on a plane) and lots of sleeping in their own beds and practice time....so important to have the practice time...ask the new Pacific Division clubs.
I await your answer with the extensive list of successful Canadian ECHL teams.
mk80
Registered User
- Jul 30, 2012
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Something tells me that some stuff behind the scenes is going on in Hamilton. I would think it's easier logistically between Hamilton and Montreal than St Johns. Plus if the plan is to get the Bulldogs into Laval in a couple years. To me it makes more sense to stay in Hamilton for two more seasons. I feel like there is something going on behind the closed doors of Copps Coliseum, that is forcing the Bulldogs out this year.
Name one Canadian city other than Brampton where the ECHL has even existed.
Years ago, the same ridiculous argument could have been made against the OHL being successful in the US. The absence of evidence is not evidence.
Victoria BC
My point is with St Johns that the success of the AHL in Canada can be disputed. Like anywhere, some (St Johns, Winnipeg)...have been very successful. Many others have not. That is not a knock on any city or market....I think as the quality of the hockey goes down, it becomes a tougher sell in Canada.
The Salmon Kings did reasonably well, but the goal there was to get a Jrs team. They drew 4,000-5,000 per game every year except the first and last ones.
2004-05: 2,289
2005-06: 4,230
2006-07: 4,248
2007-08: 4,871
2008-09: 4,923
2009-10: 4,369
2010-11: 3,717
The WHL team draws just slightly better than this, but not significantly so.
The ECHL was actually relatively successful in Victoria - that franchise moved because the WHL moved in.
As a Canadian, I disagree with the notion that support for a team has to do with the league. For instance, in many Canadian cities there is only a Jr. A franchise (e.g., Vernon, Fort McMurray, Grande Prairie) - a league that is far below both Major Junior and the ECHL - and those markets fully support their teams.
The issue in Brampton has everything to do with that city, and nothing to do with the Canadian market in general. While Brampton has a large population, it is essentially a suburb of Toronto with no real city centre and a population that is predominantly first-generation Asian. The arena is in an industrial park, and not at all easy to access, which is really tough when a huge proportion of the population relies on public transit. You may not appreciate this living in the US, but you cannot attribute the struggles of an ECHL franchise in Brampton to that league being a tough sell in Canada. It's really a unique market. To give you some insight, locals nickname the city "Bramaladesh."
The only challenge an ECHL franchise would face in Canada would be the lack of local rivals. But, if it's affiliated with a nearby NHL team (as the Salmon Kings were), I think it would be successful.
The bigger issue is Southern Ontario teams now and in the past 10 years have not done well attendance wise now if a Hamilton team can run a season ticket drive and sell 4000 season tickets then yes grant them a expansion team.
I think it's fair to say that GTA teams have not done well attendance-wise (Mississauga, Brampton, St Michael's), but those franchises had issues that Hamilton will not.
The top-attended OHL teams are actually all from Southern Ontario (London, Kitchener, Windsor).
Do keep in mind that market size & arena capacity plays a part with attendance numbers in the OHL. A team like Owen Sound will never be the front runner with attendance as the rink can't accomodate more than 3500 or so fans.
I believe local rivals and geographic proximity are key in any league. I think a cluster of 5-6-7 echl teams in new England woul.d work. Saying, I know Victoria was out there...although Alaska and the Cali teams were on the west coast, St Johns I suppose would be served better with perhaps 1 or 2 more Atlantic Canada teams. Either way, it's a fly deal.
Carbooja
Uncle Salaami
Don't Blame the population, it was poorly ran, and this doesn't help either:
https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Hers...f18a7fd8b8!2m2!1d-79.708815!2d43.667002?hl=en
The issue I have is when Mississauga and Brampton were awarded team many said they will be sold out every game at the end there were not would Hamilton success maybe but if they don't that would be it for any more teams.
Should probably wait until the franchise merry-go-round stops to see who's where before even trying to answer that.
Tommy Hawk
Registered User
- May 27, 2006
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Sorry, but those teams are not successful because they are in southern ontario according to jason2020.
I do not believe that at all. I do no think local rivals are necessarily key in any league. I can tell you that when a team comes in that is hated, doesn't matter where they are. Do you think the Leafs and the Canadiens are rivals?
Geographic proximity does not make a rivalry either.
So you have an issue with them, not that teams in southern ontario will always fail.
Should probably wait until the franchise merry-go-round stops to see who's where before even trying to answer that.
Thunderdome to determine divisions!!!
MiamiHockey
There 3 of the top but Ottawa and North bay are in the tops as when I said Southern Ontario I was meaning Mississauga/Brampton etc.
There 3 of the top but Ottawa and North bay are in the tops as when I said Southern Ontario I was meaning Mississauga/Brampton etc.
I knew what you meant, which is why I clarified that it's been the GTA teams, and not Southern Ontario teams, that have struggled.
I grew up in Guelph, and I know the area very well. Brampton and Mississauga were doomed to fail, in part because of the ridiculous location of their arenas (being a short drive from each other AND nowhere near the cities they purport to represent) and the demographics of Brampton and Mississauga.
OHL teams need centres with a sense of community. Hamilton has that, but Mississauga and Brampton do not.
i am not worried about what level of hockey is here in Utica. we have shown that we can sustain a AHL team here. Vancouver will leave eventually, maybe as soon as after next season. i think the fan base here will support another AHL team, an ECHL or OHL team with no problems. i went to a ECHL game in Cincinnati last month, and other than the speed of the game there was not much difference. i currently have season tickets (along with 2200 other fans) for the AHL comets. if the ECHL came in i would probably not make the commitment of full season ticket, but maybe 1/2 season. the OHl is a wild card right now, not sure if they would be interested in a CNY team.
Shootmaster_44
Registered User
I have no idea about the Vipers in Vernon as I don't keep close tabs on the BCHL. But I do follow the AJHL and I am curious how attendance that tops out at 1,500 in Grande Prairie and Fort Mac translate into those markets fully supporting their teams? I agree that CJHL cities do have good support in the West. But saying they support these teams like Major Junior or the ECHL puzzles me.
Also, I would say the CJHL is probably just as skilled as the ECHL. One has to remember that top players from the CJHL play NCAA hockey following their stints and many end up being drafted. I know the USHL supplies a good number of NCAA players, but every team in the AJHL has at least a couple players committed with NCAA teams every year. I suspect that is the same in Western Canada (I say that as Quebec and Ontario are totally different beast with Junior A hockey).
Would Vernon, Fort Mac or Grande Prairie draw well enough to support Major Junior or ECHL? Of course not. They would be drawing about what they do now.
As far as the ECHL being successful in Canada, it definitely could if given a chance and not forced out by predatory Major Junior Leagues. It just takes the right market to play in. But that is the same anywhere, who knew that Saskatoon would be a basketball hotbed in the 90s? (If there was a league that wasn't the ABA nearby, it could be again.) The problem is for the ECHL to be successful you need a decent sized rink. I am not sure of any arena of ECHL size that isn't occupied by a NHL, AHL or CHL team. Chilliwack might be the only one and the fiasco over the Bruins moving to Victoria, likely killed any enthusiasm from the community over big time hockey there.
The other problem the ECHL faces in Canada, is Canadians in larger communities expect that some of the players they are watching will move up. Aside from goaltenders, few ECHL players that play any length of time in the league will move up. Plus, at least in some Major Junior markets, the cities in that league sell better than having Reading or Rapid City in town. Saskatoon/Regina would sell better than Saskatoon/Manchester.
For me personally, I am sick of the garbage teams the Blades ice year in and year out and I would much prefer the AHL to the WHL. I know several people who will go to the odd Blades game as it is the only game in town, but would be first on the list for AHL season tickets. What the ECHL and AHL would need to play up is the professional aspect of the leagues. Some markets would ooh and aah over having professional hockey over the amateur Major Junior.
You also market it as the Baby Leafs vs. the Baby Jets or whatever. That way you tap into the local fans preference of NHL teams. Would this work in all markets? No. The ideal market is one far enough away from a NHL city that the fans in the area are not cheering for one NHL team as a majority. So places like the Maritimes, Saskatchewan, the Okanagan and Northern Ontario are the best places for AHL and ECHL because there is no NHL team looming.
Take my elementary school class for example in Saskatoon as a sample size, I was the lone LA Kings fan, we had a Jets fan, an Oilers fan, a Lightning fan, a Flames fan, a couple Penguins fans, a Flyers fan, a Stars fan and I believe an Islanders fan. It is a small sample size, but it shows you that no team dominated the market, which would in turn help sell the Baby Kings vs. the Baby Jets. This is why Abbotsford did not work well and why a Quebec City Habs team would not work. Fans in areas with close proximity to a NHL franchise are usually fans of that franchise (or in the case of Quebec City hate the nearest NHL team) and thus don't support the AHL affiliate of another NHL team.
So Canada is a tricky place to try and place an ECHL or AHL team. It would be similar to if the NFL had a minor league and you put a Redskins franchise in Fort Worth, TX. NHL allegiances run deep in Canada and if the local team is an affiliate of someone other than the dominant NHL franchise (especially if it is an intra-division rival), the NHL allegiance wins out. I would have mixed feelings about an AHL affiliate of the Ducks being in Saskatoon. While I would support the local AHL team, seeing them do well just means that the Ducks drafted well and my Kings will have problems with the players I cheer for now. If you get the majority of fans having these issues, you won't draw well and the team will move.
It actually surprises me that Hamilton draws as well as it does being that from what I've always gathered it is Leaf territory. Thus, cheering for the Baby Habs should be sacrilege to Leaf fans. Yet, Hamilton has managed to stay afloat all these years.
I generally agree with what you had to say, except for a couple of things.
First, the AJHL / CJHL is nowhere near the level of the ECHL. Think about it this way: only the best CJHL players get to NCAA Div. I, and only the best Div. I players turn pro. Jr. A is good hockey, but is at least 3 rungs below the ECHL in terms of caliver.
Do yourself a favour and look at the best players from the Lloydminster Blazers over the years, and track how many of them even made it to the ECHL, much less succeeded there. Not many.
There are lots of variables that go into reported attendance (ticket giveaways, arena size, city population), but when a small city like Vernon (pop. 40,000) averages 1500-2500 per game for Jr. A, that's very good support.
Tommy Hawk
Registered User
- May 27, 2006
- 4,223
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You can also think of it like this equating to baseball - you have how many baseball teams a the high school/junior college level? The top level player from high school/JC go to either D1 or the pros. How many of those at single A get to Double A? How many get to Triple A? How many get to the majors?
Each level you go up the number of people making it to that level drops so only the best of the level below get to the next level.
So comparing a league three levels removed from the ECHL as saying it is the same quality is like saying a high school baseball team could step onto the field with a Double A team and play at the same level.
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