Willie Desjardins' comments on SiriusXMNHL today

[Hit the post]

Actually Sutter's PPG was worse than Horvat's:

Sutter
20 GP 9 Pts = .45 PPG

Horvat
82 GP 40 Pts = .49 PPG

Don't even know what that poster is going on about. Sutter has exceeded Horvat's PPG exactly 1 time in his entire career and by now is pretty much set as a 25-35 point guy. Giving him offensive minutes and match ups over Horvat makes zero sense.

Especially since Sutter is more or less a seasoned NHLer at this point vs Horvat [then a rookie].

 

[m9]

Correct.

That is crazy, especially when considering his common linemates that I mentioned above. Makes no sense.

 

[opendoor]

That is crazy, especially when considering his common linemates that I mentioned above. Makes no sense.

Not much that the team does makes a lot of sense these days. Sutter's two most common wingers were Burrows and Virtanen and with them he had 58.8% and 62.5% O-Zone starts respectively.

It was a small sample so who knows how it'd play out over a full season, but Sutter's time as a center last season saw very little of what you'd call hard shutdown minutes. He was either playing with the Sedins or getting soft minutes as a C with lots of O-Zone starts. Throw in Desjardins' laments about Horvat scoring too much and getting away from where they wanted him to be, and now talking about Sutter as the #2 C and I think we can make an educated guess about how the team sees its lineup coming together.

 

[m9]

Not much that the team does makes a lot of sense these days. Sutter's two most common wingers were Burrows and Virtanen and with them he had 58.8% and 62.5% O-Zone starts respectively.

It was a small sample so who knows how it'd play out over a full season, but Sutter's time as a center last season saw very little of what you'd call hard shutdown minutes. He was either playing with the Sedins or getting soft minutes as a C with lots of O-Zone starts. Throw in Desjardins' laments about Horvat scoring too much and getting away from where they wanted him to be, and now talking about Sutter as the #2 C and I think we can make an educated guess about how the team sees its lineup coming together.

I'm not really concerned about the "2C vs 3C" thing, as I think that's more of a fan-generated issue and it really doesn't mean much. I also don't think the linemates will be an issue - Horvat was given the much better linemates last year. The offensive zone starts are really concerning though.. and really make no sense. I'm also curious what they do with the PP units with these guys.

 

[MS]

That is crazy, especially when considering his common linemates that I mentioned above. Makes no sense.

Well, yeah.

This is why people were so upset about how Willie handled things last year, and why we got ticked off again when Willie is indicating that he's learned absolutely nothing and is looking to do things that way again.

The comments he made about a young player essentially scoring too much are some of the most bizarre things I've ever heard from an NHL coach.

 

[absolute garbage]

I'm not really concerned about the "2C vs 3C" thing, as I think that's more of a fan-generated issue and it really doesn't mean much. I also don't think the linemates will be an issue - Horvat was given the much better linemates last year. The offensive zone starts are really concerning though.. and really make no sense. I'm also curious what they do with the PP units with these guys.

I guess the label of 2C or 3C is fan-generated, but ultimately that is determined by the player's minutes, matchups and linemates, and fans don't determine those things.

 

[MS]

I guess the label of 2C or 3C is fan-generated, but ultimately that is determined by the player's minutes, matchups and linemates, and fans don't determine those things.

I really have no issue if Sutter ends up getting more minutes than Horvat.

But Horvat absolutely has to be getting the skilled linemates and o-zone starts while Sutter should be centering a checking/matchup line.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

I really have no issue if Sutter ends up getting more minutes than Horvat.

But Horvat absolutely has to be getting the skilled linemates and o-zone starts while Sutter should be centering a checking/matchup line.

Yup, give Sutter Etem and Hansen and the tough matchups. See what they get for you in transition offensively.

Give Horvat Baertschi and Virtanen (or Eriksson for stretches) and see how productive he can be.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Only a fool would completely ignore how Horvat was arguably the team's best forward the entire 2nd half of the season.

He's absolutely ready to be the 2C and put up a 50+ point season.

I suspect WD will initially hand him the tough defensive assignments but after seeing Sutter sputter offensively he'll default back to Horvat rather than keep losing games.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Very curious how and where Rodin slots in to the lineup.

 

[m9]

I guess the label of 2C or 3C is fan-generated, but ultimately that is determined by the player's minutes, matchups and linemates, and fans don't determine those things.

Agreed, as long as fans are going off the actual data and not just what WD says in a radio interview in July.

I really have no issue if Sutter ends up getting more minutes than Horvat.

But Horvat absolutely has to be getting the skilled linemates and o-zone starts while Sutter should be centering a checking/matchup line.

Absolutely, and I will add powerplay time to that list of things he needs as well.

 

[GetFocht]

Very curious how and where Rodin slots in to the lineup.

Jim said 3rd line

 

[absolute garbage]

I really have no issue if Sutter ends up getting more minutes than Horvat.

But Horvat absolutely has to be getting the skilled linemates and o-zone starts while Sutter should be centering a checking/matchup line.

Yup. Kesler played more minutes but Hank was always the "1C". Part of the "first line".

The only thing that should matter is playing into your players' strengths, which you explained there.

And I think the general consensus is that a guy who scores 55p is considered as 2C more than than a guy who scores 35p, even if the 35p guy plays more minutes.

And I think Willie and the management group would agree with that but in a bizarro world are pegging Sutter as the 55p offense guy and Horvat as the 35p defense guy.

Agreed, as long as fans are going off the actual data and not just what WD says in a radio interview in July.

This is exactly what's happening. We have one year of experience with this.

 

[m9]

This is exactly what's happening. We have one year of experience with this.

All we really have is a very small sample size of how WD deploys Horvat & Sutter when they are both playing center. Horvat also took his offensive step forward after that small sample size. I think 10-15 games into this season we will have a much better idea of how WD sees them currently.

 

[Dana Murzyn]

Anyone have a link to the WD comment about Horvat scoring too much?

Did he really complain about that? I mean, holy hell, really?

 

[Mad Brills*]

botchford on the pat cast podcast said that he's heard people around the league say early december is the line for willie watch.

 

[Proto]

Anyone have a link to the WD comment about Horvat scoring too much?

Did he really complain about that? I mean, holy hell, really?

Post-game comments in March-ish, a month or so after he broke up Horvat and Baertschi (when Horvat had his 14 points in 15 stretch). He said Horvat was being "taken away from his game" when he played with Baertschi.

It was completely insane.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

Post-game comments in March-ish, a month or so after he broke up Horvat and Baertschi (when Horvat had his 14 points in 15 stretch). He said Horvat was being "taken away from his game" when he played with Baertschi.

It was completely insane.

Cant wait to see how long it is before Dorsett starts getting more PP time over Loui Eriksson.This is just mind blowing that Jim Benning thinks that we can be competitive or have any shot at the playoffs with this idiotic coach and soft as butter team.Firing all of this guys can not come soon enough.

 

[WTG]

botchford on the pat cast podcast said that he's heard people around the league say early december is the line for willie watch.

Was this a recent pat cast?

I'd like to listen to it.

 

[Get North]

Cause he's 20 and was eaten alive defensively last year?

Jesus, half of this board gives a standing O to Willie for limiting Virtanen and McCann's minutes because "you can't rush kids into the NHL" then does the same for rushing Horvat who is one year older and was absolutely eaten alive last year including a 35 game offensive drought where he scored what, 2 goals? I mean, if Virtanen is supposed to be a top 6 scoring winger why not give him that role last year too? Won't it make him better in the future? McCann too right? Just throw people into roles whether they can handle it or not and that's good for them I guess.

Besides what in the living hell did we even acquire Sutter for if not to take these tough defensive match ups? It boggles the mind that we would give the 30-point defensive centre in his prime easy offensive minutes and play the 21 year old with visibly better offensive skills in the defensive match up role.

But boggling the mind is what WD does best I guess.

He wasn't eaten alive defensively. He put up 40 points, managing to put up good offensive numbers with tough minutes, that is actually good performance, not bad. If he plays the same type of minutes this year then he should do even better points-wise. What's wrong with that? He was drafted as a shutdown/defensive centre, I don't see what's boggling your mind with that.

Okay, he had a drought. But he had a great finish to the end of the year and that's going to make him a better player next season. I would be complaining at the beginning of the season, but now, the season is over. Horvat has experience playing those tough minutes, he'll be better going forward with those same minutes. I'm not sure if you have any stats regardless backing up "eaten alive defensively." Anybody can yell whatever they want, but stats would help your point.

Bo Horvat played tough minutes at the end of his rookie season and he continued it into last season. It's going to make him a better player and I think we were going to be a playoff team until Sutter got injured. When Sutter got injured, Horvat was responsible of secondary scoring and defensive minutes.

 

[CanaFan]

He wasn't eaten alive defensively. He put up 40 points, managing to put up good offensive numbers with tough minutes, that is actually good performance, not bad. If he plays the same type of minutes this year then he should do even better points-wise. What's wrong with that? He was drafted as a shutdown/defensive centre, I don't see what's boggling your mind with that.

Okay, he had a drought. But he had a great finish to the end of the year and that's going to make him a better player next season. I would be complaining at the beginning of the season, but now, the season is over. Horvat has experience playing those tough minutes, he'll be better going forward with those same minutes. I'm not sure if you have any stats regardless backing up "eaten alive defensively." Anybody can yell whatever they want, but stats would help your point.

Bo Horvat played tough minutes at the end of his rookie season and he continued it into last season. It's going to make him a better player and I think we were going to be a playoff team until Sutter got injured. When Sutter got injured, Horvat was responsible of secondary scoring and defensive minutes.

bolded is incorrect. Bo was drafted as a defensively responsible 2-way centre with 2C upside. He was not drafted to be a hard minutes shut down offensive black hole i.e. Manny Malhotra. If you thought that was his projection then I'm afraid you weren't paying attention to the 2013 draft.

As for his play, he struggled defensively all season long. Yes his offense picked up in the second half but that is unrelated to his defensive struggles. Some of it was bad luck to be sure, but luck averages out over 82 games. His -30, tied for worst on the team with Radim "I'm checked out early" Vrbata speaks to that. Even as an imperfect measure it still is telling that Bo had the worst goal differential on the team. Or if you prefer shot generation, his CorsiFor% was 407th in the league at 5v5 amongst forwards, well below rookies like Virtanen and McCann and barely ahead of that noted ace Linden Vey. Considering Bo is a far better player than any of those kids it is fairly obvious his deployment did not do him any favours last season.

So please don't argue that Horvat didn't struggle defensively because by every conceivable metric he certainly did that.

 

[beachcomber]

Very curious how and where Rodin slots in to the lineup.

He'll be in the opening lineup, score five goals in the first 8 games, fans will clamor to have a statue erected in front of GM Place. He'll be venerated on Vancouver HF boards as the Swedish Mike Bossy and by the end of the year he will be back on his old Swedish team. I've heard this song many times before.Lol.

 

[Phenomenon13]

bolded is incorrect. Bo was drafted as a defensively responsible 2-way centre with 2C upside. He was not drafted to be a hard minutes shut down offensive black hole i.e. Manny Malhotra. If you thought that was his projection then I'm afraid you weren't paying attention to the 2013 draft.

As for his play, he struggled defensively all season long. Yes his offense picked up in the second half but that is unrelated to his defensive struggles. Some of it was bad luck to be sure, but luck averages out over 82 games. His -30, tied for worst on the team with Radim "I'm checked out early" Vrbata speaks to that. Even as an imperfect measure it still is telling that Bo had the worst goal differential on the team. Or if you prefer shot generation, his CorsiFor% was 407th in the league at 5v5 amongst forwards, well below rookies like Virtanen and McCann and barely ahead of that noted ace Linden Vey. Considering Bo is a far better player than any of those kids it is fairly obvious his deployment did not do him any favours last season.

So please don't argue that Horvat didn't struggle defensively because by every conceivable metric he certainly did that.

Thank you.

Horvat's second half surges in both his rookie and sophmore year have been impressive but fool some people about how much he actually struggled throughout the year.

In his rookie season, Horvat was a replacement level NHL player at the first half. It wasn't until his improvement in the second half that vaulted him into status of being a contributor rather than just being a player.

Also, I don't think plus minus is a great indicator of a player's defensive play.

 

[CanaFan]

Thank you.

Horvat's second half surges in both his rookie and sophmore year have been impressive but fool some people about how much he actually struggled throughout the year.

In his rookie season, Horvat was a replacement level NHL player at the first half. It wasn't until his improvement in the second half that vaulted him into status of being a contributor rather than just being a player.

Also, I don't think plus minus is a great indicator of a player's defensive play.

Agree that plus minus is imperfect however when you are the worst player on your team (tied with Vrbata) it can't be ignored. Clearly something - either the player or his deployment - resulted in a massive imbalance in his on ice results, worse than anyone else on the team. And when combined with his CorsiFor numbers it tells a pretty stark picture for Bo's season, outside of scoring. It is certainly foolish to talk about how last season was "good for him" and "accelerating his development". It was a tough season and he'll almost certainly get through it. But if putting a player in a situation where they will struggle then I certainly expect to see Virtanen on the Sedin line playing 20+ minutes a night next year too.

 

[Proto]

For his age and usage, Horvat's performance defensively at 5v5 was probably more in the range of "expected" than "bad". I thought the only area he was anywhere near bad was on the penalty kill, where he was atrocious.

To me he looks like a good offensive #2 centre who can possibly develop a respectable defensive game. He was given minutes more like a young Jordan Staal or Sean Couturier though, which seems like a mis-read of talent.