Will Leafs Pursue Stamkos? Part 2

[mikebel111*]

Other one is at limit. Looks like the discussion is still running so may as well start another thread.

Click to read more...

 

[Gary Nylund]

2 former 1st overall picks, rocket richard winners who had off years at the same age.

When was the last Rocket Richard winner who came into the league, became a top 3 player and then declined after turning twenty ****in five years old?

Youre sick of hearing an Ovechkin comparison? I'm sick of people treating this young adult like hes 35 instead of 25.

Its in my opinion, that people who think hes done in this league and not worth the money he is 100% going to get, are absolutely delusional.

IF Toronto signs him, the 180 some of you will pull is going to be hilarious, especially if we continue to build and insulate him with some hopeful new superstars.

99% of people here (including me) would love to have him, some of us do think cost might be a consideration. What's hilarious is you saying it's delusional to think he might not be worth the money he will get when nobody knows what the cost will be? If someone pays him 14m a year, you are 100% certain he will be worth it? Ookay then.

Name the last elite, top 3-5 player in the NHL who went downhill at 25 and never recovered?

Why don't you name me the last elite, top 3-5 player in the NHL who suffered an injury like the one Stamkos did. Is there even one player like that? Can you see why there is a concern that we're in uncharted territory with Stamkos?

Here's a Stamkos quote for you:

"“That’s the million-dollar question: Is it ever going to feel the same way as before?†Stamkos recently told Joe Smith of the Tampa Bay Times. “It may never. I’m hoping one day you wake up and there’s no little pain, no discomfort, just feels like a regular leg. I don’t know if that’s going to happen.â€

But there's zero cause for concern, not even worth thinking about right?

 

[indigobuffalo]

Friedman was speculating that Yzerman's offer to Stamkos "started with an '8'..." so I would imagine that means $80-89M range, and assuming 8-years, would be a cap hit between $10M to $11.125M.

I'm going out on a limb but just assuming he didn't mean $8M to $8.9M per season AAV.

 

[Snow Dog]

99% of people here (including me) would love to have him, some of us do think cost might be a consideration. What's hilarious is you saying it's delusional to think he might not be worth the money he will get when nobody knows what the cost will be? If someone pays him 14m a year, you are 100% certain he will be worth it? Ookay then.



Why don't you name me the last elite, top 3-5 player in the NHL who suffered an injury like the one Stamkos did. Is there even one player like that? Can you see why there is a concern that we're in uncharted territory with Stamkos?

Here's a Stamkos quote for you:

"“That’s the million-dollar question: Is it ever going to feel the same way as before?†Stamkos recently told Joe Smith of the Tampa Bay Times. “It may never. I’m hoping one day you wake up and there’s no little pain, no discomfort, just feels like a regular leg. I don’t know if that’s going to happen.â€

But there's zero cause for concern, not even worth thinking about right?

A couple of questions.When was this quote spoken?Did you ever break your leg?It takes a couple of years for it to heal all the way.The leg is quite useable after a few months but not fully healed.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

99% of people here (including me) would love to have him, some of us do think cost might be a consideration. What's hilarious is you saying it's delusional to think he might not be worth the money he will get when nobody knows what the cost will be? If someone pays him 14m a year, you are 100% certain he will be worth it? Ookay then.

Ask Boston fans if they were upset with the high percentage of cap that Chara took up when they first signed him. If somebody decides to sign Stamkos to 14 mill per season, you bet your ass they will have a plan for working that into their budget for the length of his contract.

We arent smarter than the GM's, as many people on here would like to believe we are. They dont just throw money first and think about it later... well maybe Cliff Fletcher did, but thats just senility.

Do i think hes worth 14 million? Probably not today, 4 years from now, if he retains his former 50+, rocket contention self, a rising cap and our young players becoming more mature and ready to push into the playoffs, well i think it would be hard to say he isnt.

Why don't you name me the last elite, top 3-5 player in the NHL who suffered an injury like the one Stamkos did. Is there even one player like that? Can you see why there is a concern that we're in uncharted territory with Stamkos?

Here's a Stamkos quote for you:

"“That’s the million-dollar question: Is it ever going to feel the same way as before?†Stamkos recently told Joe Smith of the Tampa Bay Times. “It may never. I’m hoping one day you wake up and there’s no little pain, no discomfort, just feels like a regular leg. I don’t know if that’s going to happen.â€

But there's zero cause for concern, not even worth thinking about right?

Fair enough, there are obvious concerns with that and it's most certainly to be documented, but players get physicals from the teams and are able to take advantage of world class medical personnel and rehab equipment. A leg break is far from the worst thing that can happen to a player, most ligament tears are much more debilitating, for longer periods of time, with even more question marks. We have seen plenty of players come back from those (2 top 5 2012 draft selections were both out with serious leg injuries for nearly an entire season and still developed into good players, potentially great)

Derrick rose was an MVP when he suffered a serious leg injury that kept him out for over an entire season. He came back and is now showing himself to be near MVP form again.

GSP and dominik Cruise also suffered leg injuries that kept them out for extended periods of time (cruise was a god damn mess) and both came back to retain their championship form.

These arent the same injuries but are examples of elite athletes who have come back from devastating injury to become examples of the greatness in the best athletes of our time. Stamkos was one of those athletes before his injury, i feel he will be again after his injury.

I'm of course not saying hes 100% concern free, im just not doubting the mentality and strength of a premier athlete in todays world.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I remain of the opinion this is a two-horse race. Stamkos is probably 60% to 80% intent on re-signing with Tampa Bay but there may be some specific demands that are sticking points (possible requirements like Centre position guaranteed, or limits on Cooper, or even as far as firing Cooper...).

The other 20% to 40% is going to play for Toronto because a) hometown/childhood team, b) Babcock/Team Canada familiarity c) the allure of the "LeBron"-factor.

Haven't been following the previous thread but have we finally convinced people that Stamkos NEEDS to be signed IF HE IS AVAILABLE??

I can't see him taking us to the cleaners if the goal is to win a Cup as quickly as possible (Stammer's prime years). Could see him doing a 7-year $9M to $10M AAV.

 

[teeder333*]

After hearing Babcock last night go off, I have to say, there just might be a chance of seeing Stamkos suit up for us next year.

 

[indigobuffalo]

If someone pays him 14m a year, you are 100% certain he will be worth it?

Nice Strawman argument.

Why stop at $14M? Why not get the NHL to change its cap hit limit and have someone offer a $25M AAV contract and then ridicule someone for stating that "he would of course be worth the contract he signed" when it should have been clear that Stamkos is getting signed at between $9M - $12M and at that range he would be worth every penny.

Sure there are concerns over his leg but every player has injuries and risks re-injury at any time and also new injuries.

There's a certain amount of inherent risk you have to accept.

Rielly had major reconstructive surgery on his knee the year before he was drafted (it's why he fell to 5th overall), are you also shaking in your boots over the new contract that Shanahan/Lamoriello will be handing him this off-season??

Should we be looking at trading Rielly because he has an injury history?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ask Boston fans if they were upset with the high percentage of cap that Chara took up when they first signed him. If somebody decides to sign Stamkos to 14 mill per season, you bet your ass they will have a plan for working that into their budget for the length of his contract.

We arent smarter than the GM's, as many people on here would like to believe we are. They dont just throw money first and think about it later... well maybe Cliff Fletcher did, but thats just senility.

Do i think hes worth 14 million? Probably not today, 4 years from now, if he retains his former 50+, rocket contention self, a rising cap and our young players becoming more mature and ready to push into the playoffs, well i think it would be hard to say he isnt.

Fair enough, there are obvious concerns with that and it's most certainly to be documented, but players get physicals from the teams and are able to take advantage of world class medical personnel and rehab equipment. A leg break is far from the worst thing that can happen to a player, most ligament tears are much more debilitating, for longer periods of time, with even more question marks. We have seen plenty of players come back from those (2 top 5 2012 draft selections were both out with serious leg injuries for nearly an entire season and still developed into good players, potentially great)

Derrick rose was an MVP when he suffered a serious leg injury that kept him out for over an entire season. He came back and is now showing himself to be near MVP form again.

GSP and dominik Cruise also suffered leg injuries that kept them out for extended periods of time (cruise was a god damn mess) and both came back to retain their championship form.

These arent the same injuries but are examples of elite athletes who have come back from devastating injury to become examples of the greatness in the best athletes of our time. Stamkos was one of those athletes before his injury, i feel he will be again after his injury.

I'm of course not saying hes 100% concern free, im just not doubting the mentality and strength of a premier athlete in todays world.

I'm glad you agree he's not 100% concern free. Listen, I hope he makes it all the way back too regardless if he comes to Toronto or not but I just don't understand people who talk as if the injury was 100% not an issue.

This has done before but maybe it's time to do it again.

Steve Stamkos PPG by season beginning with his first year in the league:

0.58
1.16
1.11
1.18
1.19

1.35 (partial season, 23 points 17 games before getting injured)

Injury

0.85 (partial season, 17 points in 20 games after coming back later in the season)

0.88
0.78 (current season, incomplete)

Ok maybe it's the coaching or some other reason but his PPG took a huge dip right after the injury, if the injury had nothing to do with it, that's one hell of a co-incidence. Me personally, I'm not sold. Talk about Ovechkin all you want but he never sufered a major injury like Stamkos and had his production plummet from that instant. How anyone can look at those numbers and say the injury is not an issue is beyond me.

Yes he's still a very good hockey player but I doubt he will ever get back to where he once was. He used to be a top 3-5 player in the NHL but he's just not at that level any more.

 

[Gabriel426]

First of all serious injury or not, all contact sports professional players will always play hurt. Heck, even baseball player plays hurt. Just too much wear and tear on their bodies. It happens to everyone. That's the risk of signing or resigning players.
Secondly, I think The Kopitar, Toews and Kane deals will be benchmark deals for Stamkos. I doubt any GMs will give in to Stamkos and his agent demands of 13mil or more a season.
Lastly, can people just keep stop saying all contenders can have one bad contract. That's like saying Stamkos is going sucks but it's okay, Leafs should still sign him regardless.....

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nice Strawman argument.

Why stop at $14M? Why not get the NHL to change its cap hit limit and have someone offer a $25M AAV contract and then ridicule someone for stating that "he would of course be worth the contract he signed" when it should have been clear that Stamkos is getting signed at between $9M - $12M and at that range he would be worth every penny.

Sure there are concerns over his leg but every player has injuries and risks re-injury at any time and also new injuries.

There's a certain amount of inherent risk you have to accept.

Rielly had major reconstructive surgery on his knee the year before he was drafted (it's why he fell to 5th overall), are you also shaking in your boots over the new contract that Shanahan/Lamoriello will be handing him this off-season??

Should we be looking at trading Rielly because he has an injury history?

LOL. I don't think you understand what a strawman argument is. Or maybe you misread my post (or the post I was responding to).

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm glad you agree he's not 100% concern free. Listen, I hope he makes it all the way back too regardless if he comes to Toronto or not but I just don't understand people who talk as if the injury was 100% not an issue.

This has done before but maybe it's time to do it again.

Steve Stamkos PPG by season beginning with his first year in the league:

0.58
1.16
1.11
1.18
1.19

1.35 (partial season, 23 points 17 games before getting injured)

Injury

0.85 (partial season, 17 points in 20 games after coming back later in the season)

0.88
0.78 (current season, incomplete)

Ok maybe it's the coaching or some other reason but his PPG took a huge dip right after the injury, if the injury had nothing to do with it, that's one hell of a co-incidence. Me personally, I'm not sold. Talk about Ovechkin all you want but he never sufered a major injury like Stamkos and had his production plummet from that instant. How anyone can look at those numbers and say the injury is not an issue is beyond me.

Yes he's still a very good hockey player but I doubt he will ever get back to where he once was. He used to be a top 3-5 player in the NHL but he's just not at that level any more.

You forgot to mention the M. St. Louis factor as well as the drop in Ice time.

 

[Pattbraderson]

It's worth noting that pre injury vs. post injury Stamkos is the same timeline as with St. Louis and without St. Louis

 

[Gabriel426]

Friedman was speculating that Yzerman's offer to Stamkos "started with an '8'..." so I would imagine that means $80-89M range, and assuming 8-years, would be a cap hit between $10M to $11.125M.

I'm going out on a limb but just assuming he didn't mean $8M to $8.9M per season AAV.

Friedman knows as much as us. We will never know how much TB offered unless Stamkos signs with TB. All I know is that the closer it gets to July 1,2016. The closer Stamkos is UFA.

Also, if there is any indication from the Leafs camp that they want Stamkos. Babs pretty much said it last night.

 

[Snow Dog]

I'm glad you agree he's not 100% concern free. Listen, I hope he makes it all the way back too regardless if he comes to Toronto or not but I just don't understand people who talk as if the injury was 100% not an issue.

This has done before but maybe it's time to do it again.

Steve Stamkos PPG by season beginning with his first year in the league:

0.58
1.16
1.11
1.18
1.19

1.35 (partial season, 23 points 17 games before getting injured)

Injury

0.85 (partial season, 17 points in 20 games after coming back later in the season)

0.88
0.78 (current season, incomplete)

Ok maybe it's the coaching or some other reason but his PPG took a huge dip right after the injury, if the injury had nothing to do with it, that's one hell of a co-incidence. Me personally, I'm not sold. Talk about Ovechkin all you want but he never sufered a major injury like Stamkos and had his production plummet from that instant. How anyone can look at those numbers and say the injury is not an issue is beyond me.

Yes he's still a very good hockey player but I doubt he will ever get back to where he once was. He used to be a top 3-5 player in the NHL but he's just not at that level any more.

Didn't his return from injury also coincide with the loss of MSL,his mentor?

 

[hamzarocks]

Stamkos would be amazing for the leafs, home town, elite player. However if he wants more than 10 than i got to refuse. We can't afford to much money on one guy unless we lock up guys like rielly, nylander(when time comes) to deals that pay them less than 6 mill. If they become what's expected of them, than we can't sign them for that much. Look at the hawks, they won 2 cups with kane and toews making sub 7 mill(not to mention how little keith, seabrook, sharp, hjarlmonson, were paid). We need two guys who get paid at a level above the rest and need others to take favourable deals. Sadly we cant do cap circumventing deals like keith and hossa's anymore.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

I'm glad you agree he's not 100% concern free. Listen, I hope he makes it all the way back too regardless if he comes to Toronto or not but I just don't understand people who talk as if the injury was 100% not an issue.

Yes he's still a very good hockey player but I doubt he will ever get back to where he once was. He used to be a top 3-5 player in the NHL but he's just not at that level any more.

The whole St Louis timeline is a definite possibility for the lack of production as well. Losing a premier playmaking linemate and former art ross winner is most certainly a blow to any players offence, let alone a noted phenom scorer.

So that could indicate the injury isnt the primary reason for the dip in production, will we ever know for certain? No. He could get a permier playmaking player to play with next season, score 65 and get 100 points and many people would claim it was the teammates help, many would say hes finally back to his pre injury form. **** show either way.

I think regardless of how the injury is effecting his play, he will become a top 10 player in the league and a top 5 scorer on a seasonly basis when its all said and done.
Will this be worth more than toews/kane/kopitar etc. Probably yes, not because hes better than them but because other than kopitar, he signed in different seasons under different circumstances.

Kopitar never made it to UFA, its not hard to picture him squeezing an extra million or two out of a team who truly wants his services. Him not being on the market only ups Stamkos' value to the other teams looking for a premier forward.

Toews and Kane signed in an entirely different season, different cap structure and without offers from other teams. If they had been UFA i think there would have been an offer on the table for each of them that Chicago would either have to pass on due to their tight cap structure, or would have to bite the bullet and move other assets in order for them to fit them in.

There are a lot of factors that come up which makes it hard to compare a potential UFA stamkos' contract with his direct peers who signed under completely different circumstances. Whos the next 25-27 year old elite player who will become a UFA? I dont know, but until then Stamkos is the cream of the crop and is likely the best player to hit UFA since Suter.

 

[Gabriel426]

I thought the general consensus here is Stamkos at 9-9.5. Thus if Stamkos sign for 10.5 or 11, the diff is 1-2mil max. Pretty sure the cap will increase that much in 4 yrs where Willie and Marner will begin signing their first contact after their ELC. Or just stop giving out 2-3mil contracts to players like Grabner and Matthias.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

I thought the general consensus here is Stamkos at 9-9.5. Thus if Stamkos sign for 10.5 or 11, the diff is 1-2mil max. Pretty sure the cap will increase that much in 4 yrs where Willie and Marner will begin signing their first contact after their ELC. Or just stop giving out 2-3mil contracts to players like Grabner and Matthias.

Not to mention the loss of guys like Lupul and gleason, Robidas and at least one of our two goalies. The money will start to free itself up and we can hopefully replace those contracts with ones from within/ easier contracts to work with.

 

[Gabriel426]

Not to mention the loss of guys like Lupul and gleason, Robidas and at least one of our two goalies. The money will start to free itself up and we can hopefully replace those contracts with ones from within/ easier contracts to work with.

The thing is I think 99% of posters here said okay with Stamkos just not 11mil but okay with 9.5mil. That's really not that much of a difference if you add in the potential increase in the cap(at least 1mil a yr), and the fact that Shanny and Especially Lou rarely over paid in signing and resigning middle tier players. I really don't see the extra 1-2mil be a problem.

 

[leafsfuture]

Not to mention the loss of guys like Lupul and gleason, Robidas and at least one of our two goalies. The money will start to free itself up and we can hopefully replace those contracts with ones from within/ easier contracts to work with.

Its not an issue only if we dont bring on another dead-weight contract. And while I know people generally have more faith in Lou/Shanny than Nonis/Burke, at some point, you expect they will end up in a situation where what looked like a reasonable contract, turned out to be a overpayment

 

[Gabriel426]

Its not an issue only if we dont bring on another dead-weight contract. And while I know people generally have more faith in Lou/Shanny than Nonis/Burke, at some point, you expect they will end up in a situation where what looked like a reasonable contract, turned out to be a overpayment

It is going to happen, bc nobody can predict the future. I mean, the Saad deals look awesome for Chicago now but some would say Columbus got the better deal when it happened.
If last summer was any indications, GMs are getting a lot smarter with UFA and RFA signings. UFA are either getting terms or good salaries not both. Look at Franson and how much he got at the end. If he was UFA a yr earlier, teams will offer him at least 5mil/6yrs.
I see the trend being these middle tiers players will get the squeeze more and more.

 

[Peace Frog]

Friedman knows as much as us. We will never know how much TB offered unless Stamkos signs with TB. All I know is that the closer it gets to July 1,2016. The closer Stamkos is UFA.

Also, if there is any indication from the Leafs camp that they want Stamkos. Babs pretty much said it last night.

What did Babcock say last night? I didn't hear it.

 

[Stephen]

Gary Nylund, maybe watch a bit of Stamkos footage since the injury. Skating doesn't seem to be part of the issue with whatever else he's struggling with. Unless it's your medical opinion tha his leg might just fall off spontaneously one day.

 

[Gabriel426]

What did Babcock say last night? I didn't hear it.

He was asked about lack of scoring or something like that, and he replied with something like what do out expect from this group of forwards. Think it is the first time he ripped the team.