Who's to blame for the Coyotes woes?

[_Del_]

. I think we see Tippett behind the bench of a team this year if, and only if, 1 or 2 teams can their coach before December...
Next year is probably the most likely returnfor Tippett.

Tippett is being paid handsomely by the Coyotes this year. He can certainly afford to take a year out and play with his new grandchildren, and then coach nest season.

I thought the narrative the past few years was that teams would line up to hire DT if we were stupid enough to fire him. He wouldn't be unemployed a week, remember? Teams would fire someone to pick up this top five coach.

FYI, Tip would be out of work for 6 seconds.

Etc, etc

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I thought the narrative the past few years was that teams would line up to hire DT if we were stupid enough to fire him. He wouldn't be unemployed a week, remember? Teams would fire someone to pick up this top five coach.



Etc, etc

There were many narratives . Your narrative was that Tippett was an awful coach, a rather extreme explanation of what went on, and certainly not supported by the general hockey community and the NHL, where he has a fine reputation and is credited with saving the on ice product after the TGO disaster.

My narrative was that Tippett demanded more, and more mature talent, rather than the slugs like Chipchura and Moss. The ownership and GM refused, and the situation became untenable. The team decided that they didn't need a coach not on the same page with them and Tippett had simply had enough. It was a very late change of course, but it suited both parties.

As was noted previously, your attempt to tie Tippett's qualifications as a coach with the fact that he is not currently coaching simply holds no water. It is a weak and desperate attempt to inject some validity into your ill conceived narrative.

Tippett was clearly no longer the right man for the job. Tocchet's retched performance as a head coach does not speak at all to the Tippett era of the Coyotes.

 

[kbay]

Which leads me to believe the problem is not Tocchet.

Somebody gets it!!

 

[BUX7PHX]

I thought the narrative the past few years was that teams would line up to hire DT if we were stupid enough to fire him. He wouldn't be unemployed a week, remember? Teams would fire someone to pick up this top five coach.



Etc, etc

Name the team that has declared that they are ready to immediately jump ship on their coach right now. If there was a strong chance that a team may make a change, Tippett would be on the short list of candidates.

Someone mentioned beforehand the concept of if we had kept Smith and Vrbata instead of trading for Raanta and how that affects our cap room. But not once did it occur to you that teams getting rid of a coach may owe something for a buyout? As if this offseason here never took place and we never saw a buyout occur? I would like to think that people were smart enough to figure out that this is prefaced with the idea that Tippett would be snapped up immediately, should a team make a decision to let go of its coach. Because Tippett was the last coach to be let go and no other job has opened, it seems highly unreasonable to make the statement that you did.

Do you need me to ask again if you are this obtuse?

 

[cobra427]

There were many narratives . Your narrative was that Tippett was an awful coach, a rather extreme explanation of what went on, and certainly not supported by the general hockey community and the NHL, where he has a fine reputation and is credited with saving the on ice product after the TGO disaster.

My narrative was that Tippett demanded more, and more mature talent, rather than the slugs like Chipchura and Moss. The ownership and GM refused, and the situation became untenable. The team decided that they didn't need a coach not on the same page with them and Tippett had simply had enough. It was a very late change of course, but it suited both parties.

As was noted previously, your attempt to tie Tippett's qualifications as a coach with the fact that he is not currently coaching simply holds no water. It is a weak and desperate attempt to inject some validity into your ill conceived narrative.

Tippett was clearly no longer the right man for the job. Tocchet's retched performance as a head coach does not speak at all to the Tippett era of the Coyotes.

The narrative was that Tip was a bad coach for this team and anybody would be an uptick, and smith was a cancer. new coach would play the young guys Tip would ruin. Looks like just the opposite has occurred. I knew their was risk in these moves but was hoping all the Tip haters were right. Now I'm hoping Raanta can play well enough to bail us out and play like a top 10 goalie until Tocc can get this fixed. I'm not sure of either but I'm hopeful.

 

[_Del_]

Why wouldn't one of the teams having a slow start or with a bottom 26 coach want to hire the guy in 6 seconds? They like slow starts? They like having worse coaches? Here's an immediate upgrade to top 5 coach? I mean six seconds isn't a very long time. It seems like an easy decision to make.

"I have a mediocre coach, and we've had a bad start. I could make an immediate upgrade to one of the best coaches in the league or sit tight. Fifteen games is plenty of time to make a rational evaluation on coaching... I guess, I'll wait it out. "

Doesn't make much sense. I mean, if a person genuinely believed he was a top coach and that 5 games was long enough to make sweeping generalizations about coaching.


Unless, of course, neither of those premises are particularly true.
If it were to take longer than five games to make snap decisions on coaches and Tippett is not head and shoulders above other coaches in the league, then the seeming lack of interest probably would make more sense.
But we all know that can't be. Or at least a couple of us unobtuse ones do, right?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

[edit]
But we all know that can't be. Or at least a couple of us unobtuse ones do, right?

I don’t think that you’re obtuse. I think that you pushed an untenable argument so hard that you can’t find a face saving exit. You have no option but to continue the “Tippet is an awful coach” argument.

 

[_Del_]

I've never said Tippett was an awful coach. I've said he's a good coach for a short time in the right spot. It isn't here, and hasn't been for many years.
He had a reputation for a heavy veteran-preference and poor development before he got here. He did nothing to change that reputation, but solidified it. As more teams have shifted to integrating youth on the fly, it doesn't help him. Nor does the league-wide shift away from trap and heavy teams like LA to offensive teams like CHI and PIT. He also had a "players coach" reputation before he got here, and did nothing to dispel it. He also showed zero ability to adapt even period to period. He's fiercely stubborn and complained about management moves and ownership budget in very public tantrums. He also got his GM fired and replaced him. Ask Ted Nolan how that worked out. Dave isn't native and is part of the good ol' boy network, so he'll probably still get a job offer eventually. Then you can follow that team for enjoyable hockey.

 

[cobra427]

I've never said Tippett was an awful coach. I've said he's a good coach for a short time in the right spot. It isn't here, and hasn't been for many years.
He had a reputation for a heavy veteran-preference and poor development before he got here. He did nothing to change that reputation, but solidified it. As more teams have shifted to integrating youth on the fly, it doesn't help him. Nor does the league-wide shift away from trap and heavy teams like LA to offensive teams like CHI and PIT. He also had a "players coach" reputation before he got here, and did nothing to dispel it. He also showed zero ability to adapt even period to period. He's fiercely stubborn and complained about management moves and ownership budget in very public tantrums. He also got his GM fired and replaced him. Ask Ted Nolan how that worked out. Dave isn't native and is part of the good ol' big network, so he'll probably still get a job offer eventually. Then you can follow that team for enjoyable hockey.

Great theory with zero basis to back it up. What we do know is the team has 2 wins in 15 games. If Chayka/barroway had it to do over again, they would not hire Tocc, would have figured out a way to keep Tip, or hired a vet coach. Any organization will find out how much they needed somebody after they are gone. I think we are seeing that now (some of us anyway).

FYI, if Tocc was 13-2 right now, I would be the first to admit getting rid of Tip was a great idea. I wouldn't be digging my heals in given new information.

 

[_Del_]

Wait, wait, wait.

Now you think we'd be 13-2 with Tippett at the helm...

Are you dressed in motley or under a bridge?

 

[cobra427]

Wait, wait, wait.

Now you think we'd be 13-2 with Tippett at the helm...

Are you dressed in motley or under a bridge?

What I am saying is that I would admit if I was dead wrong instead of rationalizing my previous opinions, especially if they were dead wrong

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Firing Tippett was the right move...we needed to do that. The team wasn't progressing and his boring trap style hockey wasn't good for the kids.

All of you who are saying we should fire RT have to admit that we really could be a 50/50 team right now with a couple good bounces and some puck luck...with AHL level goaltending.

You've got to give RT at least 15-20 games with NHL goaltending before we start calling for the lynch mob to light the pitch and sharpen the forks.

 

[_Del_]

What I am saying is that I would admit if I was dead wrong instead of rationalizing my previous opinions, especially if they were dead wrong

Definitely the impression I've gotten from the past few years...

He wasn't shown the door, he quit. The coyotes have never said they fired him

Show me the press release that says they fired Tip or we decided to make a move, go in another direction?

 

[cobra427]

Definitely the impression I've gotten from the past few years...

2-12-1, glad your happy with the coaching change

 

[_Del_]

I am.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Firing Tippett was the right move...we needed to do that. The team wasn't progressing and his boring trap style hockey wasn't good for the kids.

All of you who are saying we should fire RT have to admit that we really could be a 50/50 team right now with a couple good bounces and some puck luck...with AHL level goaltending.

You've got to give RT at least 15-20 games with NHL goaltending before we start calling for the lynch mob to light the pitch and sharpen the forks.

It's not that the record is enough to make a change, its that the play on the ice is atrocious enough to make a change. Some say that the team is more exciting. I say that the team is more cringe worthy. They can't keep the puck and they can't think on the ice. They make boneheaded plays which lead to primo scoring chances leaving the goalie hung out to dry.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Not to interrupt the coup-counting going on here, but we don't have Tippett, Smith, or Vrbata on the team anymore. They're not coming back. The woulda-coulda-shoulda hindsight here is fairly amusing but it gets us nowhere. This team needed a change - a big one - because things had fossilized. Change is never easy, especially on this scale, so it stands to reason that unless we pulled a Vegas and had a tremendously hot start, people would be second-guessing everything.

My bottom line is that everything that happened in the off-season had a solid rationale behind it. Tippett and Smith both wanted out - else they would not have waived their contractual rights. Vrbata didn't fit in with the youth movement. That it hasn't worked out how anyone wanted sucks. No question about it. But it still needed to be done.

 

[_Del_]

We are quickly approaching the 4 month anniversary of the Tocchet hire (11 July). Since the 11th is Veteran's/Armistice Day, I propose 10 November to be "Scream Helplessly at the Sky Day" for the people who want Tippett back.

Make sure to tell your friends and neighbors! Let's make this a community event!

 

[cobra427]

Not to interrupt the coup-counting going on here, but we don't have Tippett, Smith, or Vrbata on the team anymore. They're not coming back. The woulda-coulda-shoulda hindsight here is fairly amusing but it gets us nowhere. This team needed a change - a big one - because things had fossilized. Change is never easy, especially on this scale, so it stands to reason that unless we pulled a Vegas and had a tremendously hot start, people would be second-guessing everything.

My bottom line is that everything that happened in the off-season had a solid rationale behind it. Tippett and Smith both wanted out - else they would not have waived their contractual rights. Vrbata didn't fit in with the youth movement. That it hasn't worked out how anyone wanted sucks. No question about it. But it still needed to be done.

But it didn't need to be done thats the point. Everything done has rationale behind it but you can rationalize anything. If they had it to do over again, Chayka/barroway would play their hands much differently as they miscalculated badly. We didn't need to pull a Vegas for their not to be second guessing. Any team with our record will get second guessed.

The thread is who's to blame. The thread isn't what do we do now or how do we fix it.

 

[_Del_]

Wait, wait. You've spent months telling us Dave wasn't fired. He quit. How could a coaching change "not need to be done" when your coach quits?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

But it didn't need to be done thats the point.

I'll never agree with that point so it's probably best if I bow out now.

 

[azcanuck]

Players.

On paper, this should be a much better team than it is. It's not the GM's fault that the defense leaves guys wide open in front of the net. It's not the Owner's fault that our goaltending has been horrible.

Second choice would be the coaches, but I'm not ready to hang it on them yet. This is the NHL, and coaches shouldn't be required to teach the players the basics of playing hockey.

Oh really?
Who gets these border line "NHL" players and thinks they can field a competitive team.
This is a team that cannot compete. I laugh when I see at the beginning of the year people writing on here that we have a playoff team.
Getting a couple of scrubs like Stefan and Hammer will not improve your team by much.
The way to go now is the Carolina route. Stick with your young players, develop them. Get a real good goalie. Maybe in 4-5 years we will have a team.

 

[azcanuck]

I do and I am pretty sure of it. Verby's 10 points in 12 games and Smiths .936 save percentage would make us a winning team, especially if we had Tip coaching. Tip wouldn't be playing helter skelter hockey. How you guys can't see this is stunning.

Last year on FB people blamed Smith and tippett. Easy targets for a losing team by clueless fans. They didn't like smith handling the puck. LOL
Fast forward this year. Brutal goaltending and it looks like Tocchet is in over his head.
But we would not be a winning team with smith and Tips. Our ownership is cheap. Bringing in Stefan and Hammer is not enough.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Clearly the only thing that the team has going for it is Keller at this point. The coaching is terrible and the team composition is terrible.

Wanting Tippett back is different from wishing that he had not left. Whether Tippett left with his shield or on it, he's not coming back.

The only question worth discussing at this point is whether or not the hiring of Tocchet was a true cluster f*** in the grand tradition.

 

[BUX7PHX]

It is simply one of those issues where a lot of people made generalizations about Tippett that look very false and made people despise him as a coach for this team.

Yet, when a similar approach is taken by Tocchet, it gets applauded, even though it is not different:

Tocchet mentioned not being the coach that wants to bag skate players for eff'ing up, and then admitted that he may have to do that. How is that any different of a player's coach attitude than what we saw with Tippett?

Tocchet has been routinely putting Duclair on a low line. Same thing with Tippett. This is the only thing that has been mentioned on an equal level, but maybe part of the reason for that is b/c Duclair actually has a few more points this season than last, so it is easier to look past that?

Tippett drew the scorn of everyone b/c our defense was not good. We theoretically got better players for the defense, and are just as bad. Yes, we have had injuries to our goalie. We were without Smith for a decent bit of time over his tenure here, but as soon as he was healthy, everyone simply assumed he was still a bad goalie, when our defense, as a whole, needed a turn-around. I haven't seen that turn-around quite yet.

Our talent level seemed to be ignored when positing why Tippett was bad as a coach. Yes, he had some say in the roster, but we were a team that had to scratch and claw to find players to come here. In 6 or 7 years, there were two "elite" players that came here as free agents: Ray Whitney and Mike Ribeiro. Other teams probably have phone conversations with at least two elite players in a week of free agency. He could really only work with what he had at those times, but that isn't good enough. We only had a handful of decent prospects come through. If we need to argue the merits of our draft classes from 2005-09 vs the class from 2010-13, there is little to no comparison. We had little true NHL talent coming up to help create a path for players to evolve into our team from 2010-13 (Murphy and Martinook being the best examples - Murphy is now getting 3rd line minutes in Chicago, while Martinook actually looks like a decent bottom 6er). Starting in 2014, we started to replenish that stock, but the young players were still fairly green enough that it would not make sense to just let them go crazy in the NHL from moment one. If anything, Tippett didn't get enough time to work with "real" talented players, not the hopefuls that we were stuck with like Phil Lane, Brandon Gormley, Mark Visentin, Louis Domingue (5th rd - 2010), Alex Ruutu, Zac Larrazza, etc. Our talent level is at the best it has ever been, and not just at the NHL level, but AHL level as well. Some of it is unproven talent. But if Tippett is being faulted for not doing enough with little talent to work with, why is Tocchet getting a pass when the talent level that he is working with is superior to just about every Coyote team iced in this decade?

That's where it is very hard to figure out. I don't hate Tocchet any more than I like Tippett, or vice-versa. The thing is that we tended to play better as the sum of our parts with Tippett. Even when the team had a clear lack of talent and gave veterans opportunities ahead of rookies, we still tended to play above that level. Right now, I don't know if I can say that about Tocchet. I would love to be able to say that or put an idea of when it is going to show up consistently, but it is difficult to do so right now.

That's all that really needs to be said.