Who's to blame for the Coyotes woes?

[Neighborhood Coyote]

The answer to this question of who's to blame is long and complicated. If anyone knew for sure, they'd already be doing better at fixing it... I'd assume.

I do think a lot of our problems are mental at this point. We all see it happen so much that we expect it now. Horrendous gaffes that end up in our net, giving up a goal after getting one, last minute goals, etc etc. It could be as simple/complicated as our players getting like mental "yips". Those aren't coached into a player or even something that they aim to do.

Take the most recent game as an example. Yotes just absolutely blow several plays and allow buffalo a huge lead. But when they finally get their heads on straight, they get it to 5-4. They have the ability to do well playing this system... and it looks good when they do. But then they just lose their minds or something and it all falls to pieces. Perhaps that a problem with the system... it seems to be effective when done well but has no margin for error like some of the "defensive" systems.

It all weaves together and I suppose they all could be to blame. Adjustments must be made at least here and there to try and minimize these gaffes and get the team back on track mentally, imo.

 

[Jakey53]

I think it depends on how deep you look into the simple play.

Aside from the offhand mistake, I don't see that many "simple mistakes." I still too often see an attempt to exit the zone that resembles rats scurrying a sinking ship. Any support this system (sorry - can't ignore the system) provides is "up ice" and if the positioning isn't perfect, or the opponent defends well, any such support breaks down. This is precisely why support roles have been implemented in systems because offense at the risk of defense does not work. The scenario plays similarly in the offensive zone, with limited cycling and thus puck possession.

The question becomes is it coaching, or Players? While I lean more toward coaching, I think both. This system is imo more of a "style of play" than it is a "system". More like we played back in the day - thing is, coaching kept improving and the game evolved into more of a need for more and more rigid structure. Putting the stick back in the Players hands sounds good and can be quite exciting, but unless and until the players can gain a strong understanding and awareness of each other, this is what we'll see at the rink.

My current summation (for what little it's worth ) is that this can still work, but it puts a lot on the Players and their ability to think and gel as a unit, to read and react on a larger scale, than most of these young players have ever had to in the past. To me it's more hockey in its purest form, but winning is the mandate and guys like Scotty Bowman stand behind the bench to create wins - sometimes at the expense of the excitement and purity of the game itself. I think a lot of the ability to read and react has been lessened due to coaching evolution.

Good post. I agree totally. The simple plays I'm referring to is OEL getting stripped of the puck when he had time to pass it, Demers and Gogo trying to make a simple clearing play only to have the puck passed right to the opposition, forwards not sending the puck deep on a line change, forwards having their man on a back check and then decide to stop skating leaving the player wide open. These are easily fixable, but have been happening every game by different players, and of course if we had a goalie that could stop a beach ball sure would help.

 

[Jakey53]

If nobody can make a simple play, thats coaching and accountability.

No it's not, that is the players responsibility. Like RT mentioned, we do it (following the system) and it works and then the next period it falls apart. He even singled out a few players. RT also has to take blame for being slow to adjust to game time situations. Both are to blame.

 

[cobra427]

No it's not, that is the players responsibility. Like RT mentioned, we do it (following the system) and it works and then the next period it falls apart. He even singled out a few players. RT also has to take blame for being slow to adjust to game time situations. Both are to blame.

I agree on an individual player basis. When it is team wide, vets and youth alike, thats on the coaching staff the entire roster can't make simple plays. Why is nobody held accountable? The sign of a good coaching staff is getting more out of your team then the talent level. The sign of a bad staff is getting less. Thats what we are getting, less. Goal tending is the biggest problem, but that won't fix the poor play by the majority of the roster. Everyone is hoping Raanta will be the savior. he might or might not be. He could implode like Loui or Duby did in Edmonton. I hope he is the answer and can cover our sins until they get fixed.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Verby always played well under Tip. He had 55 points last year and we let him walk. Yes, he would he do just as well this year on the coyotes, maybe better. Smith played well last year in front of a bad defensive team. Calgary has a better defense then we did last year and that is partially benefitting Smith this year.

But heres the thing, our defense should be much better this year then it was last year since we have Thjam and Demers. It's not and I think it is because the system tocc plays is not conducive to solid D play. If Tip were coaching our D play would be so much better overall that yes smith would be having the same type of year he is having in Calgary so far. Letting all 3 go is clearly a major mistake at this point. I thought there was risk in all 3 moves, and it looks like I am way more right than I even thought.

These are the facts and they are indisputable, but it is also water under the bridge. Dwelling on foolish moves of the past (however undersatndable that is) does not improve the future. In a way it's just more Coyotes crap for luck.

We will never know which came first - organization tired of DT, DT tired of organization, or was it indeed mutual. I think that DT would be somewhat pleased with this roster, IF it had Smith and Vrbata, but none of us can say for certain, no more than we can say how he would, or wouldn't have utilized given players. However, had this roster (to include the two cast offs) presented itself earlier? We may still have DT, better structure and more wins - Coyote luck.

AGAIN, I'm not giving up on what's being done, it can work, but the players are being given such a small margin of error, that they absolutely need to improve their games - to a man.

 

[Murf]

What pedigree do Schenn and Kconn have? Goligoski and Demers are of questionable provenance. OEL has been labotomized, apparently.

Only Hjalmarsson is playing consistent and calm. He's hurt. You have 4 guys you wouldn't trust to close out a game + OEL, who has forgotten how to defend. You can't win games with that.

They will change the roster before coaching changes are ever discussed.

OEL has 500+ games in 7 seasons, an All-star, an Olympic Silver. TSN rates him an elite puckmoving defensemen.

Hjalmarsson has 635 games in 10 seasons, 3 SC, Olympic Silver. "Excellent shutdown defenseman." Hjalmarsson's played in 11 of the losses so he doesn't get to wash his hands of this disaster.

Goligoski has 650 games in 10 seasons, 1 SC. "Quality, mobile big-minute defenseman."

Demers has 500+ in 8 seasons. "Quality puck-moving defenseman."

Between these 4, our D is too good to be this bad. No excuse for rookie mistakes (hell, even rookies don't play this bad).

Schenn even has 650 games in 10 seasons, but no one is putting him their top 4. All he needs to do is not be terrible, which shouldn't be that hard for someone so experienced.

But it proves my vote anyway. The Players are at fault because there is no excuse for an experienced group like this to play this bad. There is no strategy, scheme, instruction, or coaching that is going to make you play like you are drunk. Any GM in the league would look at that top 4 and call it acceptable. Maybe not all-star, maybe not elite - but a GM with that top four would not anticipate that the defense is going to be the group that turns this season into a dumpster fire.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The other thing to remember is that we're still barely over a month into an 82-game season. Those of you pining for Smith and Vrby should realize that their current pace is unsustainable. We've only seen Raanta in net for two games this year, so the sample size is far too small to make a judgment on him. And we're missing key elements of the team due to injury.

I guess I'm saying it's too damn early for schadenfreude.

 

[Mosby]

Mermis, in his first ever game, looked better than KConn the other night.

Schenn needs to cut 10 pounds so he can actually play in this system.

I think our top 4 D would look a lot better if we had any bottom pairing D to speak of.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Good post. I agree totally. The simple plays I'm referring to is OEL getting stripped of the puck when he had time to pass it, Demers and Gogo trying to make a simple clearing play only to have the puck passed right to the opposition, forwards not sending the puck deep on a line change, forwards having their man on a back check and then decide to stop skating leaving the player wide open. These are easily fixable, but have been happening every game by different players, and of course if we had a goalie that could stop a beach ball sure would help.

I'm certain you'll agree that sometimes shit's just going to happen, but some of what you describe is where they need to get better - to a man. Some of its hustle, some of its brain farts, but some of it is due to a lack of a structure that has most likely always been there for these players. Without that structure a greater emphasis is on each player to read and react to a larger extent because there is no fall back, or fail safe inherent in the style of play, or system. They have to learn to make better reads and become the support when the lack of structure in the current system fails to provide the required support.

Unfortunately the idiot JR is somewhat correct. This is the reason, I personally never coached systems (other than basic breakouts, forechecks and cycling the puck), but tried to teach the ability to read and react to given situations - with boat loads of PUCK SUPPORT.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Good post. I agree totally. The simple plays I'm referring to is OEL getting stripped of the puck when he had time to pass it, Demers and Gogo trying to make a simple clearing play only to have the puck passed right to the opposition, forwards not sending the puck deep on a line change, forwards having their man on a back check and then decide to stop skating leaving the player wide open. These are easily fixable, but have been happening every game by different players, and of course if we had a goalie that could stop a beach ball sure would help.

I also agree with his post, yet are these poor decisions b/c they are trying to keep up with the "play fast" mantra, and not necessarily seeing everything that is in front of them? Usually mistakes are made by rushing things. And while I can understand what Tocchet is saying about making plays to move the puck up so that teams can't get set up in their defense, there are still elements of "read and react" that come into play. Not saying that this means we go back to a slow-it-down system, in that regard, but if we need to clean up our understanding of reads within the system, then we need to dial it down and simplify. If we are creating situations that force the players into too difficult of reads and this is causing what you are mentioning above, then that is less on the players, IMO. The dial it down and simplify appears to be what hasn't been seen.

We may be very unlucky, but things like 2 goals against in 1 minute with the opposition's goalie pulled are scenarios that I feel are not sharp enough.We have already given up 5 goals against 6 on 5. Most (90-95% of) teams give up between 3-10 for the year. That's scary, b/c those are the situations that create extra points for teams that we are beating. Instead of gaining 2 points on a team, we are guaranteeing a max of 1 point gained and a min of 1 point lost if the opposition takes it in OT or SO.

There's a saying that goes, "The harder I work, the luckier I get." So, is the 6-on-5 example bad luck, and if it is, is it b/c our coaches and players haven't spent enough time working on that?

 

[FinnishCoyote]

It's all Clayton Keller's fault

 

[Jakey53]

I agree on an individual player basis. When it is team wide, vets and youth alike, thats on the coaching staff the entire roster can't make simple plays. Why is nobody held accountable? The sign of a good coaching staff is getting more out of your team then the talent level. The sign of a bad staff is getting less. Thats what we are getting, less. Goal tending is the biggest problem, but that won't fix the poor play by the majority of the roster. Everyone is hoping Raanta will be the savior. he might or might not be. He could implode like Loui or Duby did in Edmonton. I hope he is the answer and can cover our sins until they get fixed.

I don't think it is team wide, just looks that way when one player can not execute. Like I said, there is plenty of blame to go around, and RT has to take a certain amount of the blame. Richardson hit the nail on the head when he said a while back that it doesn't matter what system is in place you have to compete for it to be successful. Not everyone is pulling their weight at the moment.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The system is working in Tucson. They're 1st in their conference.

They've even won despite us stealing their goalies.

Which leads me to believe the problem is not Tocchet.

I disagree. The Tucson coaches are doing a far better job teaching the system than Tocchet and his coaches. 12 games in and this team is still playing pond hockey and making Tocchet look like Bozo the Clown.

 

[Jakey53]

I don't even think it is necessarily a defense of Tippett. It is more how the lines have become so blurred for posters here. Look at last year's comments and compare to this year:

Last year - "Ugh, all Tippett talks about is how the players can't execute. They can't execute b/c his system neuters them."
This year - We struggle with execution - the players are poor at executing.

Last year - "Ugh - Tippett put Duclair on the bottom 6 and he is playing plugs like Jooris in place of some of our young players - he should be letting them learn in this dumpster fire of a season."
This year - Why is Tocchet putting Duclair with Rinaldo and Kempe? Matter of fact, why was Kempe recalled in place of Strome? This season is just as much of a dumpster fire as last year, so why is this considered acceptable if it wasn't acceptable last year?

Last year - "Tippett is way too stubborn to be in charge of this team. He never changes his strategy and the country club means that players don't have to worry about their jobs, cause the veterans are all going to get minutes."
This year - There are few examples of people bringing this up, but it is b/c they don't want to admit the truth - this is still a similar atmosphere to what occurred last year. When the coach says, "I don't want to be that guy that makes players bag skate, but maybe I have to do that," that is essentially a country club atmosphere - he doesn't want to be the guy who force-feeds discipline, but sometimes you have to. I would rather have a coach who randomly sits a player b/c at least the player may ask of the coach or of himself: why am I being sat? It may be that way to light a fire under the butt of a player who became stagnant or passive.

Last year - "Tippett doesn't know how to mesh the talent together to be effective."
This year - The coach shows up and then 6 games in asks where our conditioning is. Granted, that does put something on the players, but he is the one who had to get them ready for the season. If he realizes that they are not in shape, then tell them that he wanted to change up the system, but until the team proves that they have enough energy to do so, he is not going to put them in positions to where they get exposed. Yet, it seems that every game, we keep trying to push something that maybe doesn't mesh.

There are boatloads of other examples, but there comes a point where maybe a lot of people that blamed Tippett for shortcomings didn't realize that Tippett was the least of the shortcomings, since many of the problems that were present last year are also present this year, and with the exception of looking faster as a team, the problems appear to be trending worse than getting better.

Everyone has an opinion of DT, some hate, some love. Coaches are hired to be fired, and the good ones will always find a job, and I'm sure DT will be just fine, but firing a top five or ten coach because you want to make a change to show you are the boss will come back and haunt this franchise, the same way in which the Doan situation was handled. DT and DM are the reason this team is here and they did a remarkable job considering everything.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

...but firing a top five or ten coach because you want to make a change to show you are the boss will come back and haunt this franchise...

That's not why (or, indeed, how) Tippett left the Coyotes and you know it.

 

[_Del_]

Hard to believe 21 teams aren't lining up to fire their guy for a top-five or ten coach who is just sitting on the couch right now.

 

[CC96]

>Top 10 coach
>DT

Pick one

 

[cobra427]

Hard to believe 21 teams aren't lining up to fire their guy for a top-five or ten coach who is just sitting on the couch right now.

Must mean Tip and Sutter can't coach any more

 

[SniperHF]

Most to blame I’d say is the goaltending.

We’re 1-2-1 with an NHL goalie in net.

We’re 0-10-0 with an AHL goalie in net.

*This is not an endorsement of Mike Smith.

2-2-1

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Hard to believe 21 teams aren't lining up to fire their guy for a top-five or ten coach who is just sitting on the couch right now.

You know better. Tippett is being paid handsomely by the Coyotes this year. He can certainly afford to take a year out and play with his new grandchildren, and then coach nest season.

 

[_Del_]

I'm sure that's it. He quit under an agreement with our broke team that paid him handsomely to go away (we just loved him that much), and now there's tons of interest out there because he's better than at least 21 other coaches, but he's decided to ride motorcycles and play scrabble this year.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I'm sure that's it. He quit under an agreement with our broke team that paid him handsomely to go away (we just loved him that much), and now there's tons of interest out there because he's better than at least 21 other coaches, but he's decided to ride motorcycles and play scrabble this year.

Your hatred for Tippett and need for validation of all those "I hate Tippet for all these reasons" posts are getting in your way.

Our "broke team" reportedly paid Tippett $3,000,000 to break the contract. I'd say that's enough to stay home for a year and enjoy the grandchildren.

 

[_Del_]

Great. More power to him. Still odd that he's not connected in more rumours seeing the number of teams that have started slowly. I mean, hey, there's a top 5 coach just sitting there...

 

[BUX7PHX]

I'm sure that's it. He quit under an agreement with our broke team that paid him handsomely to go away (we just loved him that much), and now there's tons of interest out there because he's better than at least 21 other coaches, but he's decided to ride motorcycles and play scrabble this year.

Are you blatantly this obtuse?

Dave Tippett was let go on June 22nd. I don't claim to know what the status is of every coach in the NHL, but last I checked, even Vegas had pegged Gallant to run their team by April. We were one of, if not, definitively the last team to make a decision on a coach. As a result, this means that very few teams who brought in a new coach (or were tiring of their old coach) were suddenly going to be able to make that switch. In fact, the last teams (excluding Arizona) to make a coaching change occurred on June 12th (Florida hired Boughner) and June 15th (Buffalo hired Housley).

So, if I can understand your argument - you are saying that when all 30 other teams have gone through their due diligence of getting a coach and staff in place prior to Tippett even being let go, all of a sudden, those teams are going to change course and see if they can get Tippett? The only way that happens is if some other team has a similar falling out as what we had. If Tippett were let go in early June, you better believe that he would have been on the short list of candidates for Florida and Buffalo. You know it, I know it, and many other know it. But apparently, the basic understanding of a timeline jades you so badly from making a sensical argument about our old coach. I think we see Tippett behind the bench of a team this year if, and only if, 1 or 2 teams can their coach before December. Even then, so that teams aren't changing their system mid-season, it is probably an assistant coach that gets placed in an interim role. Next year is probably the most likely return for Tippett. More of a "late firing" thing than a "bad coach" thing.

But whatever way you want to spin it...

 

[cobra427]

Are you blatantly this obtuse?

Dave Tippett was let go on June 22nd. I don't claim to know what the status is of every coach in the NHL, but last I checked, even Vegas had pegged Gallant to run their team by April. We were one of, if not, definitively the last team to make a decision on a coach. As a result, this means that very few teams who brought in a new coach (or were tiring of their old coach) were suddenly going to be able to make that switch. In fact, the last teams (excluding Arizona) to make a coaching change occurred on June 12th (Florida hired Boughner) and June 15th (Buffalo hired Housley).

So, if I can understand your argument - you are saying that when all 30 other teams have gone through their due diligence of getting a coach and staff in place prior to Tippett even being let go, all of a sudden, those teams are going to change course and see if they can get Tippett? The only way that happens is if some other team has a similar falling out as what we had. If Tippett were let go in early June, you better believe that he would have been on the short list of candidates for Florida and Buffalo. You know it, I know it, and many other know it. But apparently, the basic understanding of a timeline jades you so badly from making a sensical argument about our old coach. I think we see Tippett behind the bench of a team this year if, and only if, 1 or 2 teams can their coach before December. Even then, so that teams aren't changing their system mid-season, it is probably an assistant coach that gets placed in an interim role. Next year is probably the most likely return for Tippett. More of a "late firing" thing than a "bad coach" thing.

But whatever way you want to spin it...

Sutter too is available. Both coaches have been around long enough to be smart about picking the right situation for their next gig. Torts made the mistake of going to the Canucks too soon as an example. Neither are desperate and next summer would be the time both land longer term deals rather than a fire sale now or next few months.