Who's to blame for the Coyotes woes?

[_Del_]

 

[Heldig]

Watching the goals Buffalo scored last night it was so sad it was comical to see three goals because the D basically fell down. Who do you blame for that?

 

[Sinurgy]

I was just going to ignore this thread because it promised to devolve into the same tired entrenched arguments. And it has.

But if anyone thinks that this team would be a winning one right now with Tippett, Smith, and Vrbata still around, you're fooling yourselves.

I'm not so sure they'd be a winning team but I think they'd be better than they have been. That doesn't mean keeping Tippet would've been the right move, it just means I think Tippet would've gotten more from current roster to date. I mean, it's not like it could be worse. haha

 

[TheLegend]

Not a winning one, but we wouldn't have only 3 points to show on the season, either, in my opinion.

Wait.... you expected a non-winning team but the fact we only have 3 points so far is a problem so serious we have to fire the coach and make more changes.????

Watching the goals Buffalo scored last night it was so sad it was comical to see three goals because the D basically fell down. Who do you blame for that?

Remember..... the ice at GRA sucks.

 

[Sinurgy]

Watching the goals Buffalo scored last night it was so sad it was comical to see three goals because the D basically fell down. Who do you blame for that?

I think at this point the losing is in their heads and is compounding itself. That's very tough to stop!

 

[SniperHF]

I find this topic tiresome due to all the bad faith arguing.

Here's a tip:
IF you're going to go into hypothetical territory where Smith and Vrbata are on the roster, you have to take their salaries into account and hack that out of the roster.

IE:
Smith + Vrby = 9.75m

Raanta = 1m

So you've got 8.75m bucks to slash out of this roster before your hypothetical is even valid at all.

 

[TheLegend]

This almost had me speechless...

So you are saying that starting in 2012-13, we made a conscious effort to bring in speed to our team, and evolve the system that way? Which acquisition did we make that proves this, of the following players:

Dave Moss
Rob Klinkhammer
Steve Sullivan
Conor Murphy

The bolded player is the only player that emphasizes what you just said - we were building for speed and the system failed these three players. Let's be real - we were a team making bargain basement deals b/c we had a GM who scouted for good deals and not the false narrative that you just created. We'll check other years of acquisitions and new faces that actually played reasonable minutes:

13-14: Mike Ribeiro, Jeff Halpern, Tim Kennedy, Martin Erat
14-15: Sam Gagner, BJ Crombeen, Joe Vitale, Marc Arcobello, Tobias Reider

The trend that I am not seeing is necessarily one of trying to add significant speed and even then, it wasn't until 14-15. The bolded players are the ones whom I could agree with the idea of building towards playing fast. I see additions that were made b/c we had little money to offer, and we managed to make a good trade for Gagner and Reider. Ribeiro was worth it if you actually look at our free agent acquisitions over the decade. He is easily the most name recognizable player that signed from another team. I just question exactly what you are trying to imply by saying that we went up-tempo, b/c we really didn't. Maybe that is why we did have to play a defense first game. Also of interest - how many rookies did we add in that time? I see one - Murphy. We had an extreme lack of prospects to fill in the gaps. People have said how poor our talent and lack of rookies was, but it is because you are believing some sort of narrative that we started to build the team for speed.

Now if you are referring to the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons for building toward speed - sure - we played the rebuild with:
Max Domi, Anthony Duclair, Brad Richardson, Klas Dahlbeck, Niklas Grossmann, Steve Downie

First year of the rebuild, and we get a 78 point season. I will take that. Funny how Ray Whitney played this system fine. Relative to every significant offensive addition, his point totals and offensive play are far ahead of anyone. Vrbata tended to do well. 16-17, add Crouse, Dvorak, and Chychrun. Now, we simply have a team who has 3-5 additional rookies pushing players out. Was anyone truly expecting a 6-12 point jump?

Maybe we need to see this for exactly what it was and is: we either had one of two problems - a severe lack of talent or a lot of youth that still needs to learn the game as professionals. The latter is where we are at now, and for the most part, the lack of talent killed us for 3 or 4 years. There are going to be ups and downs, but it is funny how people are saying, "patience" right now, yet isn't playing Jooris and Holland in place of players who need time exercising exactly that?

That's why I have been saying, sure there are some deficiencies to Tippett, the same way there are deficiencies to Tocchet. But at a time when we have the best talent collection and everything that could be viewed as a positive (coach who wants to go up-tempo, adding quality veterans to assist with the process, getting rid of someone who was termed as a hindrance to the youth in Tippett), does it not seem really odd that this has been an even bigger setback than expected? I truly hope that this gets turned around soon, but something on the players and coaching isn't working. They have been given rope and they still can't execute effectively. Maybe the short leash actually worked better than people realized...

Glad you could catch your breath. At least now you're acknowledging that the period Tippett coached the team after 2102 sucked.

Look at those players you listed above..... they're all supposed to be Dave Tippett type system players. Not unlike the ones we have for 2011-2012. How'd it work out for him??

Vrbata lit up Vancouver his first year..... then got moved from the Sedin twins the following season and the bottom fell out. As much as I like Vrby he's needs a specific partner to work with. He clicked here with Ray Whitney and tanked with Steve Sullivan. So now he has a line mate in Florida that clicks with him. If we'd kept him, who do you tie up on the current roster with him? Domi??? Keller??? Better yet.... which young prospect do you push off the roster to Tucson to make room, or stick them on the 3 and 4th line where everyone bitches about Duclair being now??



.

 

[Jakey53]

Yet several people who post here (not necessarily saying that you have the same opinion) would often state their disgust with Tippett when he said, "the NHL is not a learning league."

Sorry for bringing this up, but the exact same things that people blamed Tippett's stubbornness in not wanting to teach is exactly a reason why the coaches shouldn't take blame - b/c they shouldn't have to teach everything.

So which is it? B/c even with these teaching moments that everyone clamored for, we still don't look very effective. This is another great example of the hypocrisy and double standard that is getting applied to the staff simply because one person's last name has an 'ippet' and one has a 'ocche' between a capital 'T' and the final 't.'

And I voted for "all of the above" - I put the least blame on Chayka, b/c he actually has done everything in his power to get the types of players and player quality that is needed. I think Barroway's intentions may have been decent, but he is like a lot of the people on this forum - he saw something that was perceived as a major negative with Tippett, and acted on that. Maybe there were some justifiable things behind that, but mixed with some emotional behavior, the decision has back-fired in spectacular fashion thus far. May not be the case in the next 20 games, but again, I don't think anyone expected it to be this bad.

I think the players and coaches deserve somewhat equal blame, but ultimately, execution is bad and may be worse than it was last year. It is also our coaches jobs to put the team into position to execute effectively.

There are multiple factors contributing to this disaster.

Chayka/Barroway

1. The decision to get rid of Smith has hurt our goal tending, letting Verby go hurt our production and he is a solid 2 way winger. We lack leadership and this could be partly to blame.
2. Letting Tip walk-Tip did more with less most seasons. He never had a far under achieving roster like the current team. A vet coach like Tip woudn't allow this disaster to happen with this roster. Experience would pay off.
3. Hiring tocc- They hired an unproven NHL head coach. This is what you get if you make a mistake.

Players

1. They have to take some of the blame. Half the roster is underperforming.
2. Goal tending has been terrible. Raanta being injured and trading Smith is the cause.

Coach

1. How can Tocc and his staff not be taking the lions share of the blame for this way under performing roster? It's the coaches job to use a system that works, motivate the players, play the right line combinations. Hockey is a team sport. This could be partly Chayka in hiring Tocc and telling him how they want to play "fast" too. We don't know if Tocc sold Chayka/Barroway on how we should play or more the other way around.

This is a combination of an inexperienced owner relying on an inexperienced GM and hiring an inexperienced head coach. The trickle down effect is in full force.

Two great posts guys.

 

[Jakey53]

This almost had me speechless...

So you are saying that starting in 2012-13, we made a conscious effort to bring in speed to our team, and evolve the system that way? Which acquisition did we make that proves this, of the following players:

Dave Moss
Rob Klinkhammer
Steve Sullivan
Conor Murphy

The bolded player is the only player that emphasizes what you just said - we were building for speed and the system failed these three players. Let's be real - we were a team making bargain basement deals b/c we had a GM who scouted for good deals and not the false narrative that you just created. We'll check other years of acquisitions and new faces that actually played reasonable minutes:

13-14: Mike Ribeiro, Jeff Halpern, Tim Kennedy, Martin Erat
14-15: Sam Gagner, BJ Crombeen, Joe Vitale, Marc Arcobello, Tobias Reider

The trend that I am not seeing is necessarily one of trying to add significant speed and even then, it wasn't until 14-15. The bolded players are the ones whom I could agree with the idea of building towards playing fast. I see additions that were made b/c we had little money to offer, and we managed to make a good trade for Gagner and Reider. Ribeiro was worth it if you actually look at our free agent acquisitions over the decade. He is easily the most name recognizable player that signed from another team. I just question exactly what you are trying to imply by saying that we went up-tempo, b/c we really didn't. Maybe that is why we did have to play a defense first game. Also of interest - how many rookies did we add in that time? I see one - Murphy. We had an extreme lack of prospects to fill in the gaps. People have said how poor our talent and lack of rookies was, but it is because you are believing some sort of narrative that we started to build the team for speed.

Now if you are referring to the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons for building toward speed - sure - we played the rebuild with:
Max Domi, Anthony Duclair, Brad Richardson, Klas Dahlbeck, Niklas Grossmann, Steve Downie

First year of the rebuild, and we get a 78 point season. I will take that. Funny how Ray Whitney played this system fine. Relative to every significant offensive addition, his point totals and offensive play are far ahead of anyone. Vrbata tended to do well. 16-17, add Crouse, Dvorak, and Chychrun. Now, we simply have a team who has 3-5 additional rookies pushing players out. Was anyone truly expecting a 6-12 point jump?

Maybe we need to see this for exactly what it was and is: we either had one of two problems - a severe lack of talent or a lot of youth that still needs to learn the game as professionals. The latter is where we are at now, and for the most part, the lack of talent killed us for 3 or 4 years. There are going to be ups and downs, but it is funny how people are saying, "patience" right now, yet isn't playing Jooris and Holland in place of players who need time exercising exactly that?

That's why I have been saying, sure there are some deficiencies to Tippett, the same way there are deficiencies to Tocchet. But at a time when we have the best talent collection and everything that could be viewed as a positive (coach who wants to go up-tempo, adding quality veterans to assist with the process, getting rid of someone who was termed as a hindrance to the youth in Tippett), does it not seem really odd that this has been an even bigger setback than expected? I truly hope that this gets turned around soon, but something on the players and coaching isn't working. They have been given rope and they still can't execute effectively. Maybe the short leash actually worked better than people realized...

Another great post. You are hitting on all cylinders tonight.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I blame Barroway for matching a rookie coach with an overly young team. I blame Chayka for not recognizing why he was able to snag Clendenning, Schenn, Demers and Goligoski for such reasonable prices.

I also blame Chayka for fouling up the goalie situation. A first time starting goalie should have a strong veteran backup, not a plug like Domingue. Chayka saw who Domingue was last year.

I blame Tocchet most of all, for trying to force a system on a team that is not built for it. With Chychrun out, OEL still recovering from injury, we don't have the defense to withstand being left on an island in their own end. I blame Tocchet for not having his team ready to play. They're still not ready to play. Look at the breakdowns last game.

 

[Jakey53]

I kind of agree but the goalie is also an easy scape goat. Playing a D first system would help shield our weak goal tending and have gotten a few wins along the way. Remember how bad Duby was in Edmonton with their offense only system. He came here and played way better than on the Minni. Turns out he wasn't a bad goalie after all, just in front of a bad team. We might have more of the same thing here.

It all starts with the goalie. If he can't stop it you won't win, and it doesn't matter what system you play. There is much blame to go around but I still can not understand why so many vets still can't make the most simple of plays, you know the plays they do every shift starting in pee wee. Like RT said last night, some can't handle the heat. What I would say to that is play those who can. If I remember correctly Duby's career was saved because he trained with a different coach, one who taught him how to track the puck better, so blaming Edmonton and their offense is wrong.

 

[Jakey53]

I blame Barroway for matching a rookie coach with an overly young team. I blame Chayka for not recognizing why he was able to snag Clendenning, Schenn, Demers and Goligoski for such reasonable prices.

I also blame Chayka for fouling up the goalie situation. A first time starting goalie should have a strong veteran backup, not a plug like Domingue. Chayka saw who Domingue was last year.

I blame Tocchet most of all, for trying to force a system on a team that is not built for it. With Chychrun out, OEL still recovering from injury, we don't have the defense to withstand being left on an island in their own end. I blame Tocchet for not having his team ready to play. They're still not ready to play. Look at the breakdowns last game.

Why are there so many breakdowns? I put the blame more on the players. The vets have not come to play this year, and now it has snowballed to beyond embarrassing. I blame AB second as he couldn't fire DT and Doan fast enough. He wanted to show the world that he is the boss. I put RT third as he has been slow to juggle his lines and scratching a couple of vets to send a message, and the biggest one of all, not naming a Captain.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Glad you could catch your breath. At least now you're acknowledging that the period Tippett coached the team after 2102 sucked.

Look at those players you listed above..... they're all supposed to be Dave Tippett type system players. Not unlike the ones we have for 2011-2012. How'd it work out for him??

Vrbata lit up Vancouver his first year..... then got moved from the Sedin twins the following season and the bottom fell out. As much as I like Vrby he's needs a specific partner to work with. He clicked here with Ray Whitney and tanked with Steve Sullivan. So now he has a line mate in Florida that clicks with him. If we'd kept him, who do you tie up on the current roster with him? Domi??? Keller??? Better yet.... which young prospect do you push off the roster to Tucson to make room, or stick them on the 3 and 4th line where everyone *****es about Duclair being now??



.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth that weren't said - we were 2 points out of a playoff spot in 13-14 and 5 points out in strike shortened season. Then we started the downward trend. I don't consider us as ever having sucked in 12-13 or 13-14.

That was when we first started to lose the effective talent (Boyd Gordon, Vernon Fiddler, etc.) and replaced with stopgap solutions that didn't work out in the same way that Pyatt or others had jumped in. We were decent, but not good enough for the playoffs. Combine that with a lack of drafted talent to step in and that's what you get from 14-15 and onward.

The good news is that we were able to replenish the system quicker than originally thought, but yes we are still young. If youth was the only thing that was coveted, don't you think significant roster turnover would be a part of every team's offseason?

People are preaching patience, but maybe that is exactly what we were doing last year:
- Sending Duclair down to help reclaim some of his game. How do we know that the time there didn't motivate him to come back better to start?
- Not putting players right on the first line so that they ease into the game and understand positioning, reads, and what to do. Eventually, as the players recognize situations, they get better and start to prove themselves more. All of a sudden, the system also starts to move faster and you can expand upon that.
- If they are special, you play them. Chychrun = special. Domi = special. Keller = special. Domi never got a bad treatment from Tippett, probably because he exhibited skill and conditioning to be there. Does that mean he was granted 20 mins per game- no, but maybe a good 14-17 mins a night. I have no doubt that Tippett would give Keller 15-18 mins, b/c he can make things work.

I am trying to be patient with this, but there's enough there that doesn't make sense. At least when we were struggling with Tippett during the 14-15 season (and whatever season you considered to be a struggle), some of it was just having the roster moves to improve enough, and we didn't get that. We implemented youth with Boedker, Turris (for what of the games we could get with him), and OEL. Schlemko even - he lasted a long time. Stone stepped in during the 11-12 season. We at least had some small parts to work with on that aspect. But people only remember the 14-15 season and how bad it was. It is amazing that our success happened by hitting on decent free agents (some better than others), and implementing some young talent, but not so much to where we have too many new faces. Ask yourself what parts of 14-15 and beyond we were only implementing a few rookies into the lineup and had some okay free agent hits? That sounds like 15-16 season, which was the best season of 14-15, 15-16, and 16-17. Our roster was just average enough to not be able to push for that last playoff spot (only 87 points were needed), so if we hit on the signings of players like Downie or Michalek, maybe we are talking a different story. Not every free agent or trade is guaranteed success b/c they came here...

 

[_Del_]

Ah, yes. Tippett's developmental success stories: Boedker, a guy who quit on the team because of Tippett, OEL, and, of course, David Schlemko.
It's truly a mystery why we changed course with this young squad...

 

[BUX7PHX]

Ah, yes. Tippett's developmental success stories: Boedker, a guy who quit on the team because of Tippett, OEL, and, of course, David Schlemko.
It's truly a mystery why we changed course with this young squad...

Their success stories are better than Rundblad, Lessio, and the number of failed draft picks between 2010-13.

Forest for the trees. We had bad talent coming up. Chychrun, Domi, Dvorak, Keller >>>> Turris, Boedker, even Tikhonov, Murphy, and Stone >>>>>>>>> Samuelsson, Visentin, Gormley,

You can only work with what you got, man. And none of those last 3 players are close to sniffing the NHL any time soon, so if the talent isn't there, not even someone like Tippett who got us to play better than our parts, is going to be a saving grace... But again, you take one thing out of what I say, and spin it into some sort of poor evidence that he didn't develop players. Why was Boedker leading the team in points before his spleen got lacerated? Maybe he didn't take risks in the corners after that, regardless of who the coach was. Murphy is averaging 15-17 mins per night. He regularly went over 20 here. But again, Tippett never played the youth. Maybe the talent level and depth on the Blackhawks is strong enough that they are afforded that luxury. When did we have that ever before this season?

Think deeper but don't hurt yourself. There are but many reasons for possible failure. Tippett had his issues, but right now, we are failing far more heavily under this new structure. I hope it doesn't stay that way for long, but the path out is much tougher to see right now.

Give Tocchet the 2014-15 roster with the same injuries, and we are on pace for 20 points - ironically, the pace we are on for now...

Edit: added in Murphy

 

[cobra427]

It all starts with the goalie. If he can't stop it you won't win, and it doesn't matter what system you play. There is much blame to go around but I still can not understand why so many vets still can't make the most simple of plays, you know the plays they do every shift starting in pee wee. Like RT said last night, some can't handle the heat. What I would say to that is play those who can. If I remember correctly Duby's career was saved because he trained with a different coach, one who taught him how to track the puck better, so blaming Edmonton and their offense is wrong.

Disagree on Duby, he was hung out to dry regularly with the Oilers. The Coyotes were way better on D and all of a sudden, his game improved. The same thing is happening here. I hope Raanta is the answer but I have concerns. Our team D should be better then last year but it is instead worse. Raanta will likely get hung out to dry to if the scheme doesn't change.

So why are so many vets off their game? Do they all of a sudden all suck? How could that happen? Maybe the coach isn't putting them in a position to succeed? With so many players under performing, I think it is on the coaches. Either they aren't getting through to them or the system expects too much of certain players and that causes breakdowns.

 

[Murf]

Our defense is like watching Disney on Ice, where all the skaters are playing the role of Goofy. I'm pretty sure the coaches are not directing this buffoonery. This is a pedigreed group that should be a hell of a lot better than it is.

 

[TheLegend]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth that weren't said - we were 2 points out of a playoff spot in 13-14 and 5 points out in strike shortened season. Then we started the downward trend. I don't consider us as ever having sucked in 12-13 or 13-14.

That was when we first started to lose the effective talent (Boyd Gordon, Vernon Fiddler, etc.) and replaced with stopgap solutions that didn't work out in the same way that Pyatt or others had jumped in. We were decent, but not good enough for the playoffs. Combine that with a lack of drafted talent to step in and that's what you get from 14-15 and onward.

The good news is that we were able to replenish the system quicker than originally thought, but yes we are still young. If youth was the only thing that was coveted, don't you think significant roster turnover would be a part of every team's offseason?

People are preaching patience, but maybe that is exactly what we were doing last year:
- Sending Duclair down to help reclaim some of his game. How do we know that the time there didn't motivate him to come back better to start?
- Not putting players right on the first line so that they ease into the game and understand positioning, reads, and what to do. Eventually, as the players recognize situations, they get better and start to prove themselves more. All of a sudden, the system also starts to move faster and you can expand upon that.
- If they are special, you play them. Chychrun = special. Domi = special. Keller = special. Domi never got a bad treatment from Tippett, probably because he exhibited skill and conditioning to be there. Does that mean he was granted 20 mins per game- no, but maybe a good 14-17 mins a night. I have no doubt that Tippett would give Keller 15-18 mins, b/c he can make things work.

I am trying to be patient with this, but there's enough there that doesn't make sense. At least when we were struggling with Tippett during the 14-15 season (and whatever season you considered to be a struggle), some of it was just having the roster moves to improve enough, and we didn't get that. We implemented youth with Boedker, Turris (for what of the games we could get with him), and OEL. Schlemko even - he lasted a long time. Stone stepped in during the 11-12 season. We at least had some small parts to work with on that aspect. But people only remember the 14-15 season and how bad it was. It is amazing that our success happened by hitting on decent free agents (some better than others), and implementing some young talent, but not so much to where we have too many new faces. Ask yourself what parts of 14-15 and beyond we were only implementing a few rookies into the lineup and had some okay free agent hits? That sounds like 15-16 season, which was the best season of 14-15, 15-16, and 16-17. Our roster was just average enough to not be able to push for that last playoff spot (only 87 points were needed), so if we hit on the signings of players like Downie or Michalek, maybe we are talking a different story. Not every free agent or trade is guaranteed success b/c they came here...

I didn’t put any words in your month.

You made the statement that you didn’t expect a winning team yet the fact we only have 3 points right now seems to be a problem so bad that everything is wrong.

So the question seems to be here... as well as with the cheerleading section running up and down on the sidelines right now.... is whether or not sticking with Dave Tippett should have been the way to go??

Frankly speaking I don’t think anyone really knows what the right way is. But it’s long past worrying about it because the bottom line is Tippett isn’t here anymore.

I understand the frustration with all the losing. This fanbase has been taking punches from all sides for the last nine years and it’s very understandable that patience is a rare commodity these days.

I hate our record right now. It freaking sucks to all hell. But blowing the coaching staff out after a quarter of the season just because we only have 3 points isn’t going to make it better. Bringing Tippett back won’t help it either. And I did like Dave Tippett. He’s just not the right coach for the type of team this franchise wants to build.

 

[XX]

Our defense is like watching Disney on Ice, where all the skaters are playing the role of Goofy. I'm pretty sure the coaches are not directing this buffoonery. This is a pedigreed group that should be a hell of a lot better than it is.

What pedigree do Schenn and Kconn have? Goligoski and Demers are of questionable provenance. OEL has been labotomized, apparently.

Only Hjalmarsson is playing consistent and calm. He's hurt. You have 4 guys you wouldn't trust to close out a game + OEL, who has forgotten how to defend. You can't win games with that.

They will change the roster before coaching changes are ever discussed.

 

[Mosby]

The system is working in Tucson. They're 1st in their conference.

They've even won despite us stealing their goalies.

Which leads me to believe the problem is not Tocchet.

 

[Jakey53]

Disagree on Duby, he was hung out to dry regularly with the Oilers. The Coyotes were way better on D and all of a sudden, his game improved. The same thing is happening here. I hope Raanta is the answer but I have concerns. Our team D should be better then last year but it is instead worse. Raanta will likely get hung out to dry to if the scheme doesn't change.

So why are so many vets off their game? Do they all of a sudden all suck? How could that happen? Maybe the coach isn't putting them in a position to succeed? With so many players under performing, I think it is on the coaches. Either they aren't getting through to them or the system expects too much of certain players and that causes breakdowns.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The players play the game and the coaches coach the game. Explain to me why so many players, not just vets can't make the simple play, the one's that they have made every game of their career? It's like their heads are stuck up their a-- and don't want to take it out. Maybe it is coaching, but it disturbs me. Forget the system for a second, just look at the simple plays that are not being executed. If you don't execute at the start of a play, everything has to get reset or you lose the puck and you are chasing the puck, again.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Not a winning one, but we wouldn't have only 3 points to show on the season, either, in my opinion.

I think that's possible. But I also think we'd still be below .500.

I do and I am pretty sure of it. Verby's 10 points in 12 games and Smiths .936 save percentage would make us a winning team, especially if we had Tip coaching. Tip wouldn't be playing helter skelter hockey. How you guys can't see this is stunning.

What stuns me is that you believe that Vrbata and Smith would be performing at that level on the Coyotes with absolutely no recent historical precedent to back it up. Particularly Smith. Please show me his stats from the past four years with the Coyotes and let me know if they even APPROACH the level he's playing at right now in Calgary. While you're at it, look at Vrbata's goals/points totals in the first 12 games of the season in years he was with the team during that period.

Tippett wouldn't be playing glorified pond hockey, that's true. But he also wouldn't be playing WINNING hockey - particularly if he had his buddy Jim Playfair still coaching with him. And one of the biggest reasons, IMO, is that the team had stopped trying for him by the time he left. They are still trying for Tocchet, as misguided as his "Western Penguins" style is starting to look. If they keep losing, that'll change just as much as it changed from 2012-2016.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The players play the game and the coaches coach the game. Explain to me why so many players, not just vets can't make the simple play, the one's that they have made every game of their career? It's like their heads are stuck up their a-- and don't want to take it out. Maybe it is coaching, but it disturbs me. Forget the system for a second, just look at the simple plays that are not being executed. If you don't execute at the start of a play, everything has to get reset or you lose the puck and you are chasing the puck, again.

I think it depends on how deep you look into the simple play.

Aside from the offhand mistake, I don't see that many "simple mistakes." I still too often see an attempt to exit the zone that resembles rats scurrying a sinking ship. Any support this system (sorry - can't ignore the system) provides is "up ice" and if the positioning isn't perfect, or the opponent defends well, any such support breaks down. This is precisely why support roles have been implemented in systems because offense at the risk of defense does not work. The scenario plays similarly in the offensive zone, with limited cycling and thus puck possession.

The question becomes is it coaching, or Players? While I lean more toward coaching, I think both. This system is imo more of a "style of play" than it is a "system". More like we played back in the day - thing is, coaching kept improving and the game evolved into more of a need for more and more rigid structure. Putting the stick back in the Players hands sounds good and can be quite exciting, but unless and until the players can gain a strong understanding and awareness of each other, this is what we'll see at the rink.

My current summation (for what little it's worth ) is that this can still work, but it puts a lot on the Players and their ability to think and gel as a unit, to read and react on a larger scale, than most of these young players have ever had to in the past. To me it's more hockey in its purest form, but winning is the mandate and guys like Scotty Bowman stand behind the bench to create wins - sometimes at the expense of the excitement and purity of the game itself. I think a lot of the ability to read and react has been lessened due to coaching evolution.

 

[cobra427]

I think that's possible. But I also think we'd still be below .500.



What stuns me is that you believe that Vrbata and Smith would be performing at that level on the Coyotes with absolutely no recent historical precedent to back it up. Particularly Smith. Please show me his stats from the past four years with the Coyotes and let me know if they even APPROACH the level he's playing at right now in Calgary. While you're at it, look at Vrbata's goals/points totals in the first 12 games of the season in years he was with the team during that period.

Tippett wouldn't be playing glorified pond hockey, that's true. But he also wouldn't be playing WINNING hockey - particularly if he had his buddy Jim Playfair still coaching with him. And one of the biggest reasons, IMO, is that the team had stopped trying for him by the time he left. They are still trying for Tocchet, as misguided as his "Western Penguins" style is starting to look. If they keep losing, that'll change just as much as it changed from 2012-2016.

Verby always played well under Tip. He had 55 points last year and we let him walk. Yes, he would he do just as well this year on the coyotes, maybe better. Smith played well last year in front of a bad defensive team. Calgary has a better defense then we did last year and that is partially benefitting Smith this year.

But heres the thing, our defense should be much better this year then it was last year since we have Thjam and Demers. It's not and I think it is because the system tocc plays is not conducive to solid D play. If Tip were coaching our D play would be so much better overall that yes smith would be having the same type of year he is having in Calgary so far. Letting all 3 go is clearly a major mistake at this point. I thought there was risk in all 3 moves, and it looks like I am way more right than I even thought.

 

[cobra427]

There is plenty of blame to go around. The players play the game and the coaches coach the game. Explain to me why so many players, not just vets can't make the simple play, the one's that they have made every game of their career? It's like their heads are stuck up their a-- and don't want to take it out. Maybe it is coaching, but it disturbs me. Forget the system for a second, just look at the simple plays that are not being executed. If you don't execute at the start of a play, everything has to get reset or you lose the puck and you are chasing the puck, again.

If nobody can make a simple play, thats coaching and accountability.