Speculation: Who thinks the Flyers are going to get offer sheeted?
- Thread starter Shakey Graves
- Start date
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
That was super-duper sarcasm, my dudehe's a 50 pts a year player.....he's always been a 50 pts a year player.....$12 million/year …... FOR WHAT ?
It ABSOLUTELY matters if it's numbers or %. How do you not see that? If you can't, there is no use continuing further.
Maybe I am missing something, but $8 million in 2016 is not the same as $8 million in 2019 regardless of whether you use percentage as actual dollars. Maybe you can explain how that is inaccurate.
This is where it seems you may not have ever negotiated anything of consequence. I don't like to assume that so if I am wrong, please correct me if that is not the case. But, often times you may reach an impasse, a time when it is shit or get off the pot. Both options have consequences and risks. If you cave to their demands, you don't get the best deal. No question about that whatsoever, but you don't risk losing his services. If you do not cave you may get a better deal...or he may hold out and you lose his services for a period of time (and potentially don't even get this "better" deal you are talking seeking). It seems that you folks don't realize that there is another party to the negotiation. You cannot force him to sign for any amount. If he wants $8 and we won't give it to him, he will sit out. That is the consequence of not paying at that point. I cannot stress enough that I am NOT saying that Fletch should just call him and give him a blank check. He should try and hopefully he can get a better deal, BUT IF HE CAN'T, then he has to decide whether or not to pay him or let him sit. Again, I would not let him sit. Maybe that means they pay him more than they want. Absolutely. But the alternative is not having our most important defender for at least part of the season, if not the entire season (or longer). To me, paying him more than we want is better than not having him at all. That has nothing to do with "negotiation skills" or anything like that because you cannot force someone to do what you want them to. And again keep in mind I am not suggesting that we should pay him immediately, but if camp is starting tomorrow and he is not showing up and threatening to sit...that's when you pull the trigger if you are at that point.
Using the lawsuit negotiation as an example again, insurance companies will have a dollar amount that is their top dollar. Sometimes that number is acceptable and we settle the case. Other times it isn't and the client must choose to either take an amount that isn't ideal, or roll the dice at trial. Just like in the contract negotiation situation, there are risks and consequences to both. Sometimes the client will roll the dice and get the same or money at trial, others they will get less or none. Sometimes they take the money. That is the nature of a negotiation.
You could also look at in the situation of purchasing a home or selling a home. If you want $200k and you really think your house is worth $200k, if someone offers you something and you go back and forth and they say $190k is their best bet you can accept or wait for another offer. It might be a few more months and you might have to pay mortgages, taxes, utilities, etc. and you may not get that $300k offer at all. Are you a bad negotiator if you accept that? What about the buyer, are they a bad negotiator if they don't come up to $200k? Or during a home inspection there may be an issue that the buyer wants fixed (or if you are the buyer that you want fixed) and you may not agree to fix them (or they may not agree to fix them if you are the buyer). You can walk away at that point or you can do what they want. Just like here, there are risks and consequences to everything.
If you think paying $1 million too much is worse than losing him, that's fine. That doesn't mean you are a great negotiator because you decided to lose your most important defenseman in hopes of possibly saving $1 million after a few months. If you are like me and would prefer to pay and avoid the detriment to the team, that doesn't mean I am a bad negotiator. Now, if my initial phone call to him was, "HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT WE WILL PAY ANYTHING." Then ok, that is bad negotiating. If you reach an impasse, weigh the options, and choose one, that doesn't mean you are a good or bad negotiator.
Yes, that is what you hope happens, but again, that may not be their positions. This again is where you don't appear to have the experience in actual negotiations. That is what the ideal negotiation is. They say X, you say Y, you meet in the middle. Everybody wins and it is fair for everyone. In reality, that is the exception and not the rule. One (or both) side(s) will have their heels dug in. If the parties can't agree, there are consequences to both sides. Sometimes you weigh the options and the risk isn't worth whatever the benefit is and you go with whatever the other side is asking for. Sometimes you weigh the options and the risk is worth whatever the benefit is and you take the consequences of not resolving the issue, whatever they may be.
You seem to be suggesting that Fletcher is reasonable at $6-$7 million. Let's say he wasn't. Let's say that he was stuck at $5 million and Provolone was willing to sign for $6 million. Would your advice to Provolone be to hold out? Surely it would have to be. You would never suggest that he compromise his negotiation skills and simply accept an offer that isn't favorable. Why doesn't Fletcher just do that? He can bend him to his will.
Again, this is clearly not the case. Each contract is independent. Sanheim may be in a similar situation and he may not. $1 million is not going to change that. If he has a big year, he'll be there regardless of whether or not we sign any RFA to any contract. You seem to be ignoring Provolone's career and just focusing on one single year and acting like his stats from this year are all that matters. He has been our number one defenseman since he came into this league. He is our most important defenseman. Sanheim is not. He may be one day, but he is not today. And he turns into that this year, then I would likely have the same feeling towards his negotiations.
I agree. Neither are reasonable but sometimes that happens. And yes it would be his choice to sit out. And that choice has a negative impact on the Flyers, especially if it extends past the December 1 deadline and especially if he leaves for the KHL. Just like the Flyers have to weigh their options, so too does Provolone. If he wants to risk sitting out and hurting his value, that's his decision. No question. And he has to live with the consequences of that. No question. Just like the Flyers will have to live with those consequences if they choose to sign him or choose to let him sit.
That's wonderful, and those would be the consequences that he has to live with in sitting out. It would be so great to watch him get paid less money while our defense suffers. That will show him!
Yes, that is what I have shown. That's is correct. You sound like you would be a great negotiator. Are you in college? Want an internship at my office? You can come to some settlement conferences or sit in on some conversations with defendants and see how negotiations work and maybe you can give me some pointers.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
For real. DFF went Deadhead on our asses!
Laveuglette
Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
I don't think Provorov is gonna get 8+ like some think. Probably a bridge contract.
kudymen
Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
Whenever a paragraph is used as a response to a single sentence, I question my willingness to keep reading
edit: nvm
Whenever a paragraph is used as a response to a single sentence, I question my willingness to keep reading
That's fine. You are all expert negotiators. You don't even need to read it because you know the secret to getting the best deal every time. You must have read Art of the Deal.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
Depends on the sourceWhenever a paragraph is used as a response to a single sentence, I question my willingness to keep reading
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
Things can always change but Charlie O’Conner said his feeling is that Provorov would be unreceptive to a bridge deal. As it would be a sign of some type of lack of faith for a guy that the Flyers have used as their #1 for the last three years.
- Sep 28, 2014
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This. I would like to get at least 1 of Provorov and Konecny locked up longterm this summer. Preferably both.
kudymen
Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
Wat, I havent even said a single thing about negotiation over the past few pages, I just jokingly pointed out the disproportion.
I am not taking anything away from you (aside from the Provolone thing
)
Sorry I thought you were complaining about my response. Haha. And I will never relent on Provolone's perfect nickname.Wat, I havent even said a single thing about negotiation over the past few pages, I just jokingly pointed out the disproportion.
I am not taking anything away from you (aside from the Provolone thing
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 55,779
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All three on two year deals would suck, but if one of them gets a three year deal that could work out.
It's going to be hard for Konecny to get above 60 points in the next few years unless he somehow ends on PP1.
Tripod
I hate this team
This is the DFF we all know and remember. The one that will talk on and on and argue just for the sake of arguing.
$ vs %: I was saying you NEED to look at %, not $ when looking at comparables. You are agreeing with me. His % RFA comparables puts him in the 6-7 million range at most.
Your house example. Provy is a 5-7 million dollar house, with all the comparables being 5-7 million, and because he wants 8 million, you say "ok". If you don't say ok, you don't get the house. But maybe no one else wants that house either since it could be on the market for awhile with no takers. Does the Seller(Provy) drop his price? Ask any seller who has had their house on the market for a year, yeah, the price drops.
I said before that if Fletch only offered 5 million and would not budge, that would be negotiating in bad faith. Yet you seem to be ok with Provy doing it for 8 million.
You only want to look at one side...the Flyers not getting Provy side yet accuse me of doing the opposite. Provy sitting out costs him money, possibly millions. Miss a season, he is never getting that money back. It costs him goodwill among players and Mgt. And media, if he cares. It possibly means he is traded from a city he likes with a girlfriend who lives there.
BOTH SIDES HAVE IT IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS TO COMPROMISE, AND GET A DEAL DONE. And they will...so this is all a waste. But in your world, Provy wants 8x8, so you make him a top 5 paid Dman...and top 15 in % of cap hit. And yet the last 3 years, he has a teammate who has finished in the Norris voting 2 times and top 10 once. Provy has never received a vote.
Oh, and no I am not in college so I will have to decline your generous offer. I am 46 years old, own my car, own my house, have no debt, run my own business, negotiate cost of products all the time. I negotiate shipping cost. Lawyer costs. And more. So yeah, I have a little experience.
Magua
Entirely Palatable Product
don't forget, finding cheapest deals, on lobsters.
Tripod
I hate this team
Don't laugh...but up here lots of lobster fisherman will sell fresh lobster the day they catch them so you can haggle a bit with them...because it's still more than they get from the supermarkets.
Everyone has been pretty reasonable for the last little while so I have had nothing to talk about. Thanks for breaking the streak!
Yes, that has been my point from the beginning. I AGREE 100% what we SHOULD pay him. The problem is if he doesn't agree. Then what do you do. You can see my prior posts for your options.
If you are in need of that home for whatever reason (maybe it is in the right school district or has some special feature or something), then that's a question both sides have to figure out the answer to with regard to the negotiation. And guess what, that person who left their house on the market for a year and didn't get what they wanted, they suffer the consequences the same way the person that wouldn't come up to their asking price does. That person doesn't get the house and the other person loses money. That goes to the risk involved in both outcomes.
I'm not ok with in the sense that I think it is a good result. I am ok with it because I would prefer to overpay than lose his services. It doesn't matter what the reason behind these positions are. Fletcher may be 100% accurate in whatever he is offering in terms of fair market value. Provolone may be 100% wrong in his position as to what his fair market value is. But if he is going to sit out the organization is faced with decision: pay him or lose him until he comes around (if he comes around). I'm not willing to risk that.
I am looking at both sides and have explained the risk and consequence of both sides. I am saying I would prefer to overpay than to lose out. Provolone will absolutely suffer consequences if he holds out and it may a terrible decision for him to do that. No question whatsoever. I don't want him to do that. I don't think he should do that. But if he does, the negative impact on the team coupled with the negative impact of him as a player is more important to me than the negative impact on his wallet and his reputation. It is obviously in their best interests to meet somewhere in the middle, that is the case in every negotiation. But this whole discussion is prefaced with the idea that he is going to hold out. Everyone wants them to come to a reasonable agreement. No one wants him to hold out or for the team to overpay. But if he is going to threaten to hold out, I would rather overpay than lose out.
Wonderful, then I am sure that you are an expert negotiator who has never once paid more than you have intended to at the outset because you are able to bend the will of everyone. Maybe you can let me know some of your secrets.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
- 53,149
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