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Who has more value: Dougie Hamilton, or Mitch Marner?

Who has more value?

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Brobust

Brobust

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Sep 29, 2017
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Hamilton wihtout Giordano - trashed mercilessly.

Hamilton with Giordano - Norris candidate.

Not worth much in my eyes until he can play without Giordano.
 
perronist

perronist

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Dec 8, 2008
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leospaceman3434 said:
Sure, but we are talking about value. Hamilton hasn't been great when away from Chara/Giordano.

I just wouldn't value him much in a trade.
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What are you talking about? Hamilton improved the performances of both chara and gio. There's statistical evidence for this. Hamilton was also playing with jokipakka when not paired with gio. Not surprising he didn't play as well with a guy who washed out of the league after he got taken off his pairing.

Terrible argument, but it seems most people disagree with you even with the huge number of leafs fans on this site
 
Brobust

Brobust

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Sep 29, 2017
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martiniheidegger said:
What are you talking about? Hamilton improved the performances of both chara and gio. There's statistical evidence for this. Hamilton was also playing with jokipakka when not paired with gio. Not surprising he didn't play as well with a guy who washed out of the league after he got taken off his pairing.

Terrible argument, but it seems most people disagree with you even with the huge number of leafs fans on this site
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That's because Chara got much much more difficult starts when separated from Hamilton.

Hamilton played with Chara, Russell and then Giordano. Great results with two of the top d-men of their generation. Absolutely brutal with Russell. He might have spent 10 games total with Jokipakka. The fact that you mention him leads me to believe that you are being disingenuous here while trying to pump up Hamilton.

I really don' have anything else to add to this. We'll revisit when Hamilton isn't having his worth inflated by being stapled to Norris caliber guys.

If only Marner had such a charmed career path.
 
perronist

perronist

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Dec 8, 2008
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leospaceman3434 said:
That's because Chara got much much more difficult starts when separated from Hamilton.

Hamilton played with Chara, Russell and then Giordano. Great results with two of the top d-men of their generation. Absolutely brutal with Russell. He might have spent 10 games total with Jokipakka. The fact that you mention him leads me to believe that you are being disingenuous here while trying to pump up Hamilton.

I really don' have anything else to add to this. We'll revisit when Hamilton isn't having his worth inflated by being stapled to Norris caliber guys.
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There's some truth in what you say. Chara saw 6.6% fewer offensive zone starts without Hamilton, I wouldn't exactly call that 'much more difficult' however. In the mean time, he gives up 8% adjusted cf% (57.58 to 49.75%) similar dips in fenwick, scoring chances, and a smaller slide in high danger chances. That was also 3 years ago, when Hamilton was 21.

As for giordano,
screen-shot-2017-03-26-at-5-19-18-pm.png

There is no question they improve each other, and I don't much feel like taking credit away from one half of the most dominant 5 on 5 pairing in the league last year that saw the hardest matchups night after night on the team. And guess what? Dougie without gio saw harder usage than gio without dougie

It seems like much of your perception (citing Russell, whose impact is a small degree above jokipakka's) is based on dougie's first year, where he struggled in a new city under a new coach whose tactics were the opposite of his old coach. He still redeemed himself through the year. I don't think there's much more to say about this now either
 
CantLoseWithMatthews

CantLoseWithMatthews

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Sep 28, 2015
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flamesforcup said:
At least we dont have the worst goals against in the league. And our best player is 4th in points in the league. You guys dont even have anyone in the top 15.
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Leafs aren't even in the bottom 5 for goals against/game and we've had terrible goaltending. And that's great, but no need to pretend you wouldn't trade Calgary's offense for Toronto's in a heartbeat
also Matthews is tied for 14th and is 11th in PPG. A pretty embarrassing post all around. It's like you're allergic to facts
 
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flamesforcup

flamesforcup

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Sep 5, 2017
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CantLoseWithMatthews said:
Leafs aren't even in the bottom 5 for goals against/game and we've had terrible goaltending. And that's great, but no need to pretend you wouldn't trade Calgary's offense for Toronto's in a heartbeat
also Matthews is tied for 14th and is 11th in PPG. A pretty embarrassing post all around. It's like you're allergic to facts
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the facts are the leafs have made the playoffs twice in the last 11 years and choked out in both of them in the first round. With their atrocious defence its gonna be another playoff less year in the 6.
 
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CantLoseWithMatthews

CantLoseWithMatthews

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Sep 28, 2015
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flamesforcup said:
the facts are the leafs have made the playoffs twice in the last 11 years and choked out in both of them in the first round. With their atrocious defence its gonna be another playoff less year in the 6.
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yeah hopefully next year we get swept in round 1. Can't choke if you're never even in the series
 
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Intact

Intact

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Feb 25, 2010
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Mississauga ON
I'll admit I'm biased, but I feel that the poll results minus the Leafs/Flames fans is lopsided due to people being sick of Leafs fans on this board. Marner is on an ELC, and will hit UFA in 8-10 years versus Hamilton's 4. In sheer trade value Marner is very, very high up there
 
Diamond Joe Quimby

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
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Washington, DC
flamesforcup said:
the facts are the leafs have made the playoffs twice in the last 11 years and choked out in both of them in the first round. With their atrocious defence its gonna be another playoff less year in the 6.
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This will be fun to bump in six months.



As for the OP question, Hamilton has higher value. RHD are rare. RHD who are young and offensive forces are even more rare. Doesn't mean Marner doesn't carry value, but Hamilton is clearly more valuable (contract situations included in the consideration).
 

Boud

Registered User
Dec 27, 2011
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A Dman usually plays about 5 minutes more a game than a forward.

Good Dman with size that can move the puck as well as Hamilton are also much harder to find than wingers.

Marner is a good player but I don't see Calgary making that trade.

You trade a defensemen like Hamilton it's for a top 6 C and not a winger.
 

Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
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As of today, I would say its easily Hamilton. It could change in the 2nd half of the season if Marner can find another gear!
 
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FerklundCGY

Registered User
Jul 3, 2017
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A 6'6" 210lbs elite skating 50+ point D-man who is an absolute possession monster

vs

A 6'0" 175lbs 60+ point winger who has decent (but not great) possession numbers

Marner is an excellent player who has immense potential but the same can be said for Hamilton. The difference is that one is much larger and plays a MUCH more important position. I get that Marner is 4 years younger but that's not even close to being enough to tip the scales in his favor.
 

ImpartialNHLfan

Registered User
Oct 26, 2011
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Boud said:
A Dman usually plays about 5 minutes more a game than a forward.

Good Dman with size that can move the puck as well as Hamilton are also much harder to find than wingers.

Marner is a good player but I don't see Calgary making that trade.

You trade a defensemen like Hamilton it's for a top 6 C and not a winger.
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I get what you mean, but you trade a Dman for a player that can drive a line, and Marner is one of the rare wingers that can do that.

I'm not saying Marner has more value, it's just I'm tired of that argument.
 
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