Where are the better defensemen coming from?

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I don't know what the rumoured price for Barrie is, but we're still seeing rumours that he's apparently on the table. I was trying to play the game of actual rumours. If I had to guess at a realistic offer, I'd say Eberle + 2nd.

Subban I remain convinced was swapped for Weber mostly because Bergevin was playing hardball and Chia got fed up. He lucked out when Poile called to bail him out when his bluff got called. But that's conjecture so fine, fair.

Jones I don't think so. They obviously like RJO, but I don't think they like him that much more than RNH that they wouldn't have taken an large overpayment like the one I offered up there.

But even if we just signed Demers and kept Hall, I would have viewed it as superior to this. From what I've seen Demers is a slightly crappier version of Larsson anyways. I'd rather have that + Hall than lose Hall for a defensive dman. Spend our damn assets on Barrie or an offensive dman which is our real need back there.

Okay but let's play devil's advocate and say Demers doesn't sign and you're stuck with basically the same d-core as last year. That's instantly a bottom 5 finish.

GMs across the league obviously don't view our players very highly. Only winning will change that.

 

[Gord]

Basically. I like the idea of bringing in Larsson and hopefully Demers to push down Nurse and the others so they can develop more.

sounds reasonable. it would help if the oilers didn't have to put players into positions they were not ready for.

Larsson and Demers would bring enough depth to buy some time for the talented kids.

 

[Aerrol]

Okay but let's play devil's advocate and say Demers doesn't sign and you're stuck with basically the same d-core as last year. That's instantly a bottom 5 finish.

GMs across the league obviously don't view our players very highly. Only winning will change that.

Then I'd ***** and whine about the same old Oilers, certainly. But tossing Hall out the window in a desperation play is worse to my eye.

Look, I gave you my answers so you can't say 'there were no other options!'. I can't promise you that they would have happened, but they certainly are not unrealistic.

I call this a massive fail given the other information out there. I'm willing to wait and see - you won't see me turning in my fan card. But I'm going to call a steaming pile of **** for what it is. I'm not going to pretend like this is some kind of godsend for the team.

edit: and for ****s sake we don't need to now sign Demers. He's Larsson version 0.5 with crappier positioning and more speed. Just save the cap space to try and get the friggin offensive dman that we need. I mean, for christ's sake, I'd rather have Schultz than the stupid pick at this point. He's awful but he at least has the skillset our team desperately needs.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Then I'd ***** and whine about the same old Oilers, certainly. But tossing Hall out the window in a desperation play is worse to my eye.

Look, I gave you my answers so you can't say 'there were no other options!'. I can't promise you that they would have happened, but they certainly are not unrealistic.

I call this a massive fail given the other information out there. I'm willing to wait and see - you won't see me turning in my fan card. But I'm going to call a steaming pile of **** for what it is. I'm not going to pretend like this is some kind of godsend for the team.

edit: and for ****s sake we don't need to now sign Demers. He's Larsson version 0.5 with crappier positioning and more speed. Just save the cap space to try and get the friggin offensive dman that we need. I mean, for christ's sake, I'd rather have Schultz than the stupid pick at this point. He's awful but he at least has the skillset our team desperately needs.

The Subban package is absolutely unrealistic. Wouldn't you ask for something ludacris if teams were calling about McDavid?

Demers is the most realistic option of all the ones you listed. RNH for Jones MAYBE but you're still gutting the center depth of this team.

The trade isn't a good one but it was likely the best one we could get. Teams in a position of weakness tend to have things like this happen to them.

 

[Toydarian]

I would have done Drasaitl + 4th + Nurse for Subban over this bs trade

 

[plikestechno]

Remember Barrie isnt signed yet and wants a kings ransom. And the Avs want a kings ransom. No thanks.

 

[underdog]

Oilers just guaranteed themselves bottom 5 in the NHL next year.

5th last is better than what we finished at with Hall.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I would have done Drasaitl + 4th + Nurse for Subban over this bs trade

So Draisatl + Nurse/Klefbom + Pululjarvi + More?

That's a hell of a lot of assets to give up.

Trust me, if that trade was made HFOil would be having an even bigger aneurysm than it already is.

 

[underdog]

Did this trade help us get better? I loved Hall as an Oiler but old core wasn't getting it done and he was the poster boy for our initial failed rebuild. Time for a change.

 

[harpoon]

Total misdirection thread.

This is exactly the same sort of thing some simple minded Oil Change viewers used to post when Tamby sat around and did nothing and posters here complained.

'Well what deals would you be making then big shot'?

When you are employed at great expense to build an NHL franchise there are a couple of things that are certain;

- making no deals and then saying 'there's nothing out there' is weak and gets you fired in the end.

- making ****** trades and justifying them because 'there's nothing out there' is weak and gets you fired in the end.

No excuse for what Chiarelli did today. The fact that fans on a message board (who have no power, access and limited information) can't come up with hypothetical deals to satisfy apologists has no bearing on things either way.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Total misdirection thread.

This is exactly the same sort of thing some simple minded posters used to post when Tamby sat around and did nothing and posters complained.

'Well what deals would you be making then big shot'?

When you are employed at great expense to build an NHL franchise there are a couple of things that are certain;

- making no deals and then saying 'there's nothing out there' is weak and gets you fired in the end.

- making ****** trades and justifying them because 'there's nothing out there' is weak and gets you fired in the end.

No excuse for what Chiarelli did today. The fact that fans on a message board (who have no power, access and limited information) can't come up with hypothetical deals to satisfy apologists has no bearing on things either way.

Cool, are you satisfied going into next NHL season with the exact same defense? Are you willing to finish dead last yet again?

Answer the question harpoon. I've asked you this several times and you haven't offered up a single semblance of an answer.

As Gord said above the only way to get a true #1D is to draft and develop them. But this defense has to get better. It has to.

 

[Toydarian]

So Draisatl + Nurse/Klefbom + Pululjarvi + More?

That's a hell of a lot of assets to give up.

Trust me, if that trade was made HFOil would be having an even bigger aneurysm than it already is.

Easily. Giving up question marks for a bonafide #1 defenseman with excellent offensive production. I would do it no problem.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Easily. Giving up question marks for a bonafide #1 defenseman with excellent offensive production. I would do it no problem.

Then you're gutting our forwards, our D, and our prospect pool. Subban is a hell of a player but that's a boatload to give up. And even then Montreal probably still says no. The trade for Weber says what they really wanted. Oilers don't have that.

 

[CanadianSuperPromise]

The Subban trade would've been 100% better than this Hall trade.

A core of Hall - McDavid - Subban is infinitely more easier to retain and build around. I can't even imagine the contracts the Oilers future GM will have to hand out to Puljujarvi, Draisaitl, McDavid, Nurse, Davidson etc.


Anyways when's the last time someone won the cup without a Norris-calibre defenseman. Once every blue moon?

Hey. Ziyat Paigin maybe.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The Subban trade would've been 100% better than this Hall trade.

A core of Hall - McDavid - Subban is infinitely more easier to retain and build around. I can't even imagine the contracts the Oilers future GM will have to hand out to Puljujarvi, Draisaitl, McDavid, Nurse, Davidson etc.


Anyways when's the last time someone won the cup without a Norris-calibre defenseman. Once every blue moon?

But you're still subtracting from the d-core. Yes you got Subban but you've likely subtracted Klefbom, leaving you with still 2 top 4 defensemen.

The price was way too high. And given the end result it's very unlikely a deal would've been done.

Remember what the Bruins were asking for Hamilton last year?

 

[harpoon]

Cool, are you satisfied going into next NHL season with the exact same defense?

Over trading Hall for fracking Larsson? Yes.

Are you willing to finish dead last yet again?

I love how you set these questions up like you know the answers already. Sigh.
Over trading Hall for fracking Larsson? Yes.

Answer the question harpoon. I've asked you this several times and you haven't offered up a single semblance of an answer.

Are you happy there? You have your answers.

Now you go ahead and tell me why Larsson is the only acceptable add, and why he absolutely must be added today. Cause those are the pertinent issues. Not the fact that the Oilers have **** for defense. As you well know I was screaming about defense way back when 90% of this board (including you) wanted Souray banished to the AHL (of another team ) because he had a bad attitude and that might rub off on Taylor Hall the shiny new toy that was going to lead us to the promised land. I could see seven years ago that we needed a better defense. So don't try to pretend that I'm the one being short-sighted here. The pertinent issue is why the team has chosen to trade away Hall of all people for fracking Larsson. And do so today dammit. Cause now all of a sudden we are in a big hurry.

As Gord said above the only way to get a true #1D is to draft and develop them. But this defense has to get better. It has to.

Then draft one or trade the ****ing lotto picks for some useful bodies. Go back and find me all the d-men that have moved teams in the last six seasons and been moved for a draft pick(s) alone. There is your list of guys the Oilers could have had easily because nobody has better draft picks than the losers in Edmonton. is there anyone on that list that you might rather have than trading Hall for fracking Larsson?

But no. This tool Chiarelli, so desperate to draft JP instead. A guy who one day might be as good as Taylor Hall if he's lucky.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Over trading Hall for fracking Larsson? Yes.

Then fire up the 2017 draft thread because we will be bottom 5 again.

I love how you set these questions up like you know the answers already. Sigh.
Over trading Hall for fracking Larsson? Yes.
Are you happy there? You have your answers.

I don't know the answers. That's why I'm asking. Nobody seems to know so I was hoping someone could answer. Only Aerrol has offered something feasible. The Oilers have the worst defense in the league and without substantial additions they will continue to be in the basement.

Now you go ahead and tell me why Larsson is the only acceptable add, and why he absolutely must be added today. Cause those are the pertinent issues. Not the fact that the Oilers have **** for defense. As you well know I was screaming about defense way back when 90% of this board (including you) wanted Souray banished to the AHL (of another team ) because he had a bad attitude and that might rub off on Taylor Hall the shiny new toy that was going to lead us to the promised land. I could see seven years ago that we needed a better defense. The pertinent issue is why the team has chosen to trade away Hall of all people for fracking Larsson. And do so today dammit. Cause now all of a sudden we are in a big hurry.

I've said numerous times that this team needs at least 2 top 4 defensemen to at least look like an NHL defense. We have the worst defense in the league. Larsson helps with that. Settling for another bottom 5 finish is not a question.

Then draft one or trade the ****ing lotto picks for some useful bodies. Go back and find me all the d-men that have moved teams in the last six seasons and been moved for a draft pick alone. There is your list of guys the Oilers could have had easily because nobody has better draft picks than the losers in Edmonton. is there anyone on that list that you might rather have than trading Hall for fracking Larsson?

The Oilers have drafted defensemen but none are good enough to be a #1. They need to be developed properly and I'm hoping that Larsson can push Nurse down the lineup a bit so he can be brought along slowly.

But no. This tool Chiarelli, so desperate to draft JP instead. A guy who one day might be as good as Taylor Hall if he's lucky.

I won't argue that taking a forward was not the best idea. Sadly CBJ had to **** things up. But what I want to know is.... Why are we so bent about losing Taylor Hall?

 

[Aerrol]

The Subban package is absolutely unrealistic. Wouldn't you ask for something ludacris if teams were calling about McDavid?

Demers is the most realistic option of all the ones you listed. RNH for Jones MAYBE but you're still gutting the center depth of this team.

The trade isn't a good one but it was likely the best one we could get. Teams in a position of weakness tend to have things like this happen to them.

I don't think the McDavid equivalent is fair at all. If they valued Subban properly they'd never have bridged him, they'd have fired Therrien and they'd never trade him for an older number 1 in Weber. They burnt their bridges with him and now wanted to maximize value.

An alternative I'd happily have done that I think would have worked: RNH + Nurse or Nurse + 4th + Yak.

Losing RNHs sheltering hurts but not nearly as much as losing Hall.

 

[harpoon]

I told you. Go check the d-men that have moved for pick(s) alone over the last say six seasons.
That is the answer to your question because the Oilers always have the best picks.
But not a chance. Oilers gonna Oil and pick the flashiest guy every time. They just can't help themselves.
And fans are gonna keep making excuses like you are doing with this thread.

That's the cycle of stupidity that has us in the boat we are in now. fml

ps - nobody is 'bent' about losing Hall. We are pissed that he was traded for this sort of laughable return.
I'm not sure why those two things are so hard for some fans to separate.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I told you. Go check the d-men that have moved for pick(s) alone over the last say six seasons.
That is the answer to your question because the Oilers always have the best picks.
But not a chance. Oilers gonna Oil and pick the flashiest guy every time. They just can't help themselves.
And fans are gonna keep making excuses like you are doing with this thread.

That's the cycle of stupidity that has us in the boat we are in now. fml

The Oilers are in a position of weakness and everyone in the NBA (yes, the NBA because the NHL isn't that much of a stretch) knows they need a defenseman and badly. They have the worst d-core in the league and honestly maybe even worse than some AHL teams. They had to do something. The trade sucks balls but you likely weren't getting much better than this.

A team that hasn't finished outside the bottom 10 in 8 years doesn't have the luxury of hoping something falls into their lap. Teams know what we want and they are going to try and fleece us if they can.

Status quo is not an option for this team unless you enjoy being dead ****ing last again.

 

[Epoh]

RNH for spurgeon? Prefer the Hall deal but still something to consider.

Not saying I prefer this.... in fact I like the Larsson move more but I do think there is some room for trading a couple forwards off our roster for #4/high-end#5's that could step up this year so we could chop minutes between our top 2 pairs. Acquiring Dumba and hoping he fills a spot isn't the worst idea in the world to me, honestly. I know we hate banking on 'potential', but taking a chance on a guy by paying a lower price might pay off. Even a guy like Trevor Daley or Oduya to fill a hole, add a year of development for young D and perhaps take more time to line up a deal once we win a few more games and don't have our sack in every GM's vice grip for D trades.

 

[Jumptheshark]

It had to be done

When we start winning games people will realize how dumb they sound

pretty much this.

it became too painfull last year watching game knowing full well the entire league knew we needed a RHD that can play 20 + minute a game in all situations.

While we lost Hall


We still have--McDavid, Nuge, Eberle, Leon D-- toss in Poulot on the left side and maybe Lucic if he signs

top 2 lines

Lucic-McDavid-Eberle
Pouliot-Leon D--Nuge


or if Yak Stays and we do not sign Lucic

Pouliot-McDavid-Eberle
****-Nuge--Yak
Maroon--Leon D-Kassian

 

[Oilhawks]

Draft better, invest in scouting?

Wait patiently for the expansion draft, surely with teams only able to protect 3 D-men, a quality RH would shake lose.

Scour the KHL and other leagues.

Try something ... for God sakes, don't lose another ****ing trade.

Draft / scout better = 5+ years

Expansion draf = wish-hope-pray a #4 RHD shakes loose? How is that going to help? If the team can protect 3D they're certainly locking up their 1 & 2. How many teams have more than 3 top #1 or #2 D?

Scouring other leagues = more unproven assets and wishing, hoping and praying.

This trade HAD to be done. Hall is a great player but Oiler fans are underrating Larsson vastly and overvaluing Hall.

 

[vincent1999]

re: Larry Fisher

Simple question. The Hall deal obviously didn't get full value for Taylor, but I ask you this.

Where are the better defensemen coming from? I don't see a deal on the table that gave us anything better. Subban was dealt for Shea Weber, something the Oilers couldn't hope to match unless they wanted to pay Draisatl, Nurse/Klefbom, the 4th overall pick and MORE.

Do you deal Hall for a year of Shattenkirk and pray he signs? Maybe hope the Blues are dumb and deal him for Ptierangelo? The Isles have gone on record saying they wouldn't deal Hamonic for Hall straight up. That alone is a pretty big indictment of the value of our players.

So I ask you HFOil, where are the better defensemen coming from? As crappy as the Hall for Larsson deal is, I don't think there was anything better out there.

a good reference in this regard is an article by Larry Fisher "Finding 2 New Defensemen for the Oilers" May 13th 2016

the basis of acquiring a defensemen was that the preference was for a rightie (right shot, right side d-men) in that the Oilers have on the left side: Sekera/ Klefbom/ Nurse/ Reinhart/ Davidson/ Oesterle/ LaLeggia/ Musil/ Lagesson, whereas the right side was barren with only: Clendening/ Fayne/ Gryba

He lists the following:
Prime Targets- Tyson Barrie/ Justin Faulk/ Sami Vatanen/ Jacob Trouba/ *Kevin Shattenkirk

Team Specific Targets-
Buffalo- Ristolainen/ *Pysyk (traded)/ Bogosian/ *Franson
New Jersey- Larsson/ Severson
Minnesota- Spurgeon/ *Dumba

Second Pairing Targets
Eric Gudbranson/ *Ryan Ellis/ *David Savard/ *Cody Ceci/ *Thomas Hickey/ *Justin Braun/ *Michael Stone/ Chris Tanev

Long Shot Targets
Travis Hamonic/ PK Subban/ Brent Seabrook/ Hampus Lindholm LD/ *Cam Fowler LD/ *Jonas Brodin LD

Free Agent Targets
*Jason Demers/ Alex Goligoski/ *Kyle Quincey/ Dan Boyle/ Keith Yandle

and, since May 13th a decision was reached wrt an expansion draft next year and a great many d-men will be left exposed and unprotected particularly many of the d-men listed above (as indicated with an * in front of their name).

perhaps a little patience on the GM's part might have alleviated the problem of overpaying for a right d-men with the head of Taylor Hall.

so, in summary, those players with an * in front of their name are/ or will be available by trading day next year and their GM's will need to do something in order to get a return for an asset that could be lost for nothing. Sure each team must lose one number, and for some teams this will mean a forward, for others a defensemen, and for some a goaltender. By trading day next year the price for these defensemen will come down a lot from current asking prices. Be patient-- afterall the Oiler's drought is now on the order of a full decade-- Rome wasn't built in a day. And dumping assets at 50 or 75 cents on the dollar is a recipe for disaster, AND remember that at next year's expansion draft, the Oiler's could end up losing an asset that they spent valuable coin to acquire. The Oilers can protect 3 d-men-- namely, Larsson, Sekera, and Klefbom, and as such Reinhart/ Oesterle/ Davidson are each available for being picked off as an expansion draft piece. Note that if the Oilers acquire Demers as a UFA, well he or one of the other three d-men will not be able to be protected.

 

[vincent1999]

cont.

oops, missed out on putting an * in front of Jacob Trouba

note that Winnipeg will expose 2 of Tyler Myers/ Jacob Trouba/ and Enstrom
Washington- Orpik/ Orlov
Vancouver- Hamhuis/ Sbisa
St. Louis- Shattenkirk/ Gunnarsson
Ottawa- Wiercioch/ Ceci
NY Islanders- Hickey/ de Haan
Nashville- Ellis
Minnesota- Dumba/ Brodin
Florida- Campbell/ Petrovic
Columbus- Savard/ R. Murray
Calgary- Wideman/ Jokipakka
Buffalo- Franson
Arizona- Stone/ Connor Murphy
Anaheim- Fowler/ Despres/ Stoner

lots of choices and potential trading partners. No need to be paying a Taylor Hall for a Adam Larsson in June 2015, when by December thru March 2016 the sale will be on for real.