Kings Vision: When should the Kings extend call-up net minder Pheonix Copley?

[Surf Nutz]

View attachment 630151

 

[The Butcher]

I'm sure glad this warm body, this stopgap, this career minor league backup plays for the Kings.

I'm curious what kind of numbers this guy would have to put up and for how long before some of you will give the guy his due.

 

[Surf Nutz]

TIL

GOALTENDER PHEONIX COPLEY: MAN OF STEELY DETERMINATION - Chicago Wolves

If you only want to scratch the surface with a story about Chicago Wolves goaltender Pheonix Copley, then there are…

www.chicagowolves.com

 

[Surf Nutz]

I'm sure glad this warm body, this stopgap, this career minor league backup plays for the Kings.

I'm curious what kind of numbers this guy would have to put up and for how long before some of you will give the guy his due.

 

[crassbonanza]

I'm sure glad this warm body, this stopgap, this career minor league backup plays for the Kings.

I'm curious what kind of numbers this guy would have to put up and for how long before some of you will give the guy his due.

Hey man, I am pumped with his play and he may have just salvaged our season, but it's not like the Kings are new to unheralded goalies making a statement. Scrivens, Budaj, Kuemper, Campbell all off the top of my head had some excellent seasons with the Kings recently after being tossed aside. Adding in Ersberg and Jones, Ranford has always done a great job of elevating goaltenders, but long term is always the question.

 

[The Butcher]

Hey man, I am pumped with his play and he may have just salvaged our season, but it's not like the Kings are new to unheralded goalies making a statement. Scrivens, Budaj, Kuemper, Campbell all off the top of my head had some excellent seasons with the Kings recently after being tossed aside. Adding in Ersberg and Jones, Ranford has always done a great job of elevating goaltenders, but long term is always the question.

I wish Ranford could do the same for our 10 million dollar guys.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Hey man, I am pumped with his play and he may have just salvaged our season, but it's not like the Kings are new to unheralded goalies making a statement. Scrivens, Budaj, Kuemper, Campbell all off the top of my head had some excellent seasons with the Kings recently after being tossed aside. Adding in Ersberg and Jones, Ranford has always done a great job of elevating goaltenders, but long term is always the question.

I think he has earned another year, especially in our bare cupboards.
We don't want to lose him and he is an UFA attracting attention.
Long term definitely needs to be addressed in addition.

 

[crassbonanza]

I think he has earned another year, especially in our bare cupboards.
We don't want to lose him and he is an UFA attracting attention.
Long term definitely needs to be addressed in addition.

Oh, I am definitely in support of offering him a short term deal, but just pointing out that we have had quite a few reclamation projects that have panned out recently. I really think Ranford is the best goalie coach in the league, which is why I was so surprised by Petersen falling off.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Oh, I am definitely in support of offering him a short term deal, but just pointing out that we have had quite a few reclamation projects that have panned out recently. I really think Ranford is the best goalie coach in the league, which is why I was so surprised by Petersen falling off.

Great Posts.

 

[Surf Nutz]

I wish Ranford could do the same for our 10 million dollar guys.

Just glad we have Ranford and his guys evaluating all of our goalies and all goalies in general, and making recommendations to Blake.

 

[Statto]

I think extending him makes sense but if his agent tells him to sign anything right now he should be fired.

 

[Surf Nutz]

I think extending him makes sense but if his agent tells him to sign anything right now he should be fired.

Exactly why I wanted to sign him 3 weeks ago. This was way less of a possibility.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm sorry and this isn't a shot at anyone but I'm just agreeing to disagree here, I'm not going to change my mind on this.

My example/reference point is Brian Elliott, but you can pick a name out of a hat, like basically any Calgary goalie since Kiprusoff, or Hammond, or whatever..the league is absolutely littered with guys who can play 40 games at an elite level and then turn into an absolute pumpkin. Elliott is my example because that one year for STL he was posting a .940--think Quick's conn smythe stats--over 40 games before we turned him into Cloutier.

Copley has never in his life played more than 42 games in a season. He alternates seasons of 15-30 games at every level. When he does that, he typically posts low .900s and mid-to-high 2 GAAs. when he crosses 40, he's sub .900.

Sure, he's older, less wear, maybe he's figured out how to play within his means with his experience, and I think we ALL absolutely love the stability we see. But the above is the risk. Maybe he gets tired, banged up. Teams will scout him and get him moving. Right now, he's at a .908, and we're happier than pigs in shit which tells you how rough the start of the season has been. The dude just wins regardless and give solid play and there's value in that. There's just, so far, not more than 1m or 1 year in value based on all the market comps, history, our current situation, and the above risks.

Love the dude but even if we wins 20 games, there's zero rush. Let him play and see where the dust settles later.

 

[Statto]

I don’t think the situation was any different then. He’d shown already he was able to play in the league as a back up . He’d therefore done enough to get a NHL contract with somebody but not enough to guarantee himself more than the money that can be buried in the AHL. Given the mess of our goaltending and the underachieving the team was doing, things were always likely to play out well if he simply played his game. Losing 3 on the bounce wasn’t going to negatively affect things for him. So signing at that time (as I said then) would have been a poor call from his agent and still would be. Given the form of the players in front of him currently there’s little chance he signs now. If the team starts dropping off then maybe he thinks about it.

It’s not great timing for either side in reality because they need to decide for certain what to do with Cal. From what I understand the buy out to be, the first year means we probably don’t actually have the cap space to make that an option. Its a challenging situation to navigate at this point. Theres little certainty he’s any more than a backup and from the Kings perspective signing him to be any more than that is a massive gamble when they may well need a no1.

 

[Surf Nutz]

I'm sorry and this isn't a shot at anyone but I'm just agreeing to disagree here, I'm not going to change my mind on this.

My example/reference point is Brian Elliott, but you can pick a name out of a hat, like basically any Calgary goalie since Kiprusoff, or Hammond, or whatever..the league is absolutely littered with guys who can play 40 games at an elite level and then turn into an absolute pumpkin. Elliott is my example because that one year for STL he was posting a .940--think Quick's conn smythe stats--over 40 games before we turned him into Cloutier.

Copley has never in his life played more than 42 games in a season. He alternates seasons of 15-30 games at every level. When he does that, he typically posts low .900s and mid-to-high 2 GAAs. when he crosses 40, he's sub .900.

Sure, he's older, less wear, maybe he's figured out how to play within his means with his experience, and I think we ALL absolutely love the stability we see. But the above is the risk. Maybe he gets tired, banged up. Teams will scout him and get him moving. Right now, he's at a .908, and we're happier than pigs in shit which tells you how rough the start of the season has been. The dude just wins regardless and give solid play and there's value in that. There's just, so far, not more than 1m or 1 year in value based on all the market comps, history, our current situation, and the above risks.

Love the dude but even if we wins 20 games, there's zero rush. Let him play and see where the dust settles later.

As always, totally respect your consistent opinion and sound reasoning with explanations and examples RJ. Thank you. Time will tell.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

As always, totally respect your consistent opinion and sound reasoning with explanations and examples RJ. Thank you. Time will tell.

Ya I appreciate you being firm about it and I thin we all hope you're right! I'm just maybe being too cautious given the current investment in goaltending $ wise at the pro level and the abyss of prospects.

 

[Seattle King]

Meanwhile, Cal's demotion has shown us that he is at the exact level he should always have been, average AHL-starter who can play NHL games if needed. Unfortunately Blake fkd up big time and gave a All-Star contract to the guy. No answer for that huge error. Really dont know how they plan to construct a playoff winning goalie crease with that contract in their way.

 

[LeftKinger]

You let the season play out. Maybe Copley ends up costing more, but who cares? The difference will be minimal compared to the potential impact of a knee jerk signing.

 

[Surf Nutz]

I don’t think the situation was any different then. He’d shown already he was able to play in the league as a back up . He’d therefore done enough to get a NHL contract with somebody but not enough to guarantee himself more than the money that can be buried in the AHL. Given the mess of our goaltending and the underachieving the team was doing, things were always likely to play out well if he simply played his game. Losing 3 on the bounce wasn’t going to negatively affect things for him. So signing at that time (as I said then) would have been a poor call from his agent and still would be. Given the form of the players in front of him currently there’s little chance he signs now. If the team starts dropping off then maybe he thinks about it.

It’s not great timing for either side in reality because they need to decide for certain what to do with Cal. From what I understand the buy out to be, the first year means we probably don’t actually have the cap space to make that an option. Its a challenging situation to navigate at this point. Theres little certainty he’s any more than a backup and from the Kings perspective signing him to be any more than that is a massive gamble when they may well need a no1.

Agree with your present assessment but if we offer him a little over a mil nhl guaranteed when he is closer to the initial 3-1 mark for this poll, for a year , I think his agent and Copper take it or have to really consider it. Now they may hold out for more and competing offers as a UFA. But it seems the room likes Copper and he is a quiet go but makes positive comments about the guys. The writing is on the wall for Cal with his contract, Blakes comments and Copper hitting the 10 game mark at 9-1. Barring an extended heater with the Reign he will be there unless he is part of an unlikely trade, injury to JQ or PC or an extended severe loss in their form.

 

[lumbergh]

The Kings should definitely sign him after he wins his 16th post season game in June.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Meanwhile, Cal's demotion has shown us that he is at the exact level he should always have been, average AHL-starter who can play NHL games if needed. Unfortunately Blake fkd up big time and gave a All-Star contract to the guy. No answer for that huge error. Really dont know how they plan to construct a playoff winning goalie crease with that contract in their way.

Sure Blake over committed as Cals performance reached its zenith, but this is harsh. Cal lost form and Quick stepped his up. I feel like that combined with sitting on the bench watching Quick , caused Cal to move further away from a more controlled style to more of an extreme style ala Quick. It has not worked well for those two and the team. When other teams scout our tenders it is better to have contrasting styles in net to throw some variability at other teams.

 

[Surf Nutz]

You let the season play out. Maybe Copley ends up costing more, but who cares? The difference will be minimal compared to the potential impact of a knee jerk signing.

I care because its more money in the minors if his performance wanes and we have to send him down to Ontario as @Raccoon Jesus has alluded to in his posts. Even then he may not clear waivers and we already have Cals 5 mil down there, we can not afford it because it takes away to much salary that could be used for say a LHD and some toughness within a sound contributor.

 

[Seattle King]

Sure Blake over committed as Cals performance reached its zenith, but this is harsh. Cal lost form and Quick stepped his up. I feel like that combined with sitting on the bench watching Quick , caused Cal to move further away from a more controlled style to more of an extreme style ala Quick. It has not worked well for those two and the team. When other teams scout our tenders it is better to have contrasting styles in net to throw some variability at other teams.

Cal was offered the contract after 3 pretty mediocre seasons. He went 2.89/.911 over 35 games in 20-21 and on that basis Blake signed him to 15M/3 yrs. I think Blake was heavily invested in offseason activities, if you get my drift, woke up from his stupor to see Cal went off at the WC that summer, and overreacted in the worst way possible. These numbers below are not a reasonable basis for handing out that contract, and now we are fuct because of it.

2017-18	Ontario Reign	AHL		41	2.58	0.910	|	PLAYOFFS	4	2.38	0.915
2018-19	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		11	2.60	0.924	|
	Ontario Reign	AHL		38	4.01	0.896	|
2019-20	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		8	2.64	0.922	|
	Ontario Reign	AHL		37	3.43	0.906	|
2020-21	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		35	2.89	0.911	|
	USA	WC		7	1.29	0.953	|

Copley only needs to play well for another 25 games and his agent can walk into Blake's office and demand 3x5M.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Cal was offered the contract after 3 pretty mediocre seasons. He went 2.89/.911 over 35 games in 20-21 and on that basis Blake signed him to 15M/3 yrs. I think Blake was heavily invested in offseason activities, if you get my drift, woke up from his stupor to see Cal went off at the WC that summer, and overreacted in the worst way possible. These numbers below are not a reasonable basis for handing out that contract, and now we are fuct because of it.

2017-18	Ontario Reign	AHL		41	2.58	0.910	|	PLAYOFFS	4	2.38	0.915
2018-19	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		11	2.60	0.924	|
	Ontario Reign	AHL		38	4.01	0.896	|
2019-20	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		8	2.64	0.922	|
	Ontario Reign	AHL		37	3.43	0.906	|
2020-21	Los Angeles Kings	NHL		35	2.89	0.911	|
	USA	WC		7	1.29	0.953	|

Solid but still a tad harsh, I like the percentage but the goals against would be on your side. Definitely played real well at the world cup covid year.
Even though that was not an elite NHL talent tourney, I think Blake signed him after that. The world cup performance bolstered Cals leverage on the contract.
That was a hectic year and hindsight is 20/20, it probably was not expected but he could have payed less if he signed before that. Possibly Cals agent was not cooperating with that as things developed that year.
The agent did a great job for Cal. I trust Ranford and Blake's long term evaluation and Cals performances have let himself and everyone else down.
He will get another chance unless the unlikely event they dump him. That chance may not come until next season depending on what Blake does as we move forward. As @crassbonanza illustrated Ranford and team are great with reclamation projects. Thats what Cal is right now, but instead of an external project brought in, he is an internal project that needs to be salvaged because of his contract.

 

[Seattle King]

Solid but still a tad harsh, I like the percentage but the goals against would be on your side. Definitely played real well at the world cup covid year.
Even though that was not an elite NHL talent tourney, I think Blake signed him after that. The world cup performance bolstered Cals leverage on the contract.
That was a hectic year and hindsight is 20/20, it probably was not expected but he could have payed less if he signed before that. Possibly Cals agent was not cooperating with that as things developed that year.
The agent did a great job for Cal. I trust Ranford and Blake's long term evaluation and Cals performances have let himself and everyone else down.
He will get another chance unless the unlikely event they dump him. That chance may not come until next season depending on what Blake does as we move forward. As @crassbonanza illustrated Ranford and team great with reclamation projects. Thats what Cal is right now, but instead of an external project brought in, he is an internal project that needs to be salvaged because of his contract.

It was just the usual World Championship tourney the Euros hold every May that NHL players not in the playoffs will jump into for a quick shot at a gold medal. Its not a particularly important event. I remember Lankinen won the damn thing for Finland a couple of years ago but nobody threw 3/15M at him, even though he was a UFA.