We have a new Sens CEO!

[Sensung]

Thanks for posting the Forbes numbers from 2010 onward ................ Oh wait, you didn't.

Thanks for posting the source proving the NHLPA gets to see the Sens books beyond the scope of HRR...oh wait, you didn't.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The combined operations make a profit.
The CTC would be worthless without the Sens.
I get why it is in yours/Melnyk's interest to treat them as separate businesses for taxation and marketing purposes, however functionally all Sens fans should care is that the sum of his operations related to the Sens make money.

Are you not aware that ALL NHL 31 franchises are operated as separate businesses?

Yes, the CTC, and ALL other NHL arenas make a profit, partially from having a NHL playing 41 home games in their facilities.

You just can't get it through you head that when Melnyk claims the "Senators franchise" loses money some seasons (when they fail to make the Play offs) ...... you can't understand the words that come out of his mouth...... the Senators, alone.

When has he ever said that combined, the CTC and the Senators Franchise has lost money?

He never has.

But for some reason you feel he needs to take profits from one business, the CTC, from having Disney on ice, Bon Jovi concerts and Monster Truck rallies and spend it on another of his bussinesses.

 

[Sensung]

Do YOU see yourself?

Why would anyone spend so much time and energy wishing, hoping and begging Melnyk to sell his team, when he has publicly stated on numerous occasions that he has no intentions to so???

In fact, he's committed himself to build a new Arena in Lebreton Flats, without any Public Money involved in the construction.


You may not like who the owner is, who the CEO is, who the GM is, who the Coach is or who the Coach of the Belleville Sens is, but it's is the reality of today, and it's a complete waste of time to continuously cry about it.

My solution is to attempt to fight against the situation and withhold my money from the worst owner in the NHL.

I'm trying to raise awareness of the need to change ownership that we both agree is bad.

Your solution is to accept the situation as inevitable (even though you claim to agree is a bad one for the Sens) and continue to fork over money to Eugene.

Your solution is to blindly defend, misrepresent facts and support the ownership unconditionally even as he makes moves that would make Ballard blush, like naming himself CEO.

Sorry, but if you are not getting paid by Melnyk to represent his interests on these boards, then I really can't see the logic in your position.

 

[Sensung]

Are you not aware that ALL NHL 31 franchises are operated as separate businesses?

Yes, the CTC, and ALL other NHL arenas make a profit, partially from having a NHL playing 41 home games in their facilities.

You just can't get it through you head that when Melnyk claims the "Senators franchise" loses money some seasons (when they fail to make the Play offs) ...... you can't understand the words that come out of his mouth...... the Senators, alone.

You really can't be this stupid.

Melnyk has the Sens set up to lose money. HE GETS TO DIRECTLY CONTROL ONE OF THEIR LARGEST EXPENSES WHEN HE DECIDES WHAT THEY PAY THE CTC TO PLAY THERE.

When has he ever said that combined, the CTC and the Senators Franchise has lost money?

Of course he hasn't. He wouldn't be able to justify running the Sens on a budget and increasing ticket prices if he did.

Thanks for proving my point.

But for some reason you feel he needs to take profits from one business, the CTC, from having Disney on ice, Bon Jovi concerts and Monster Truck rallies and spend it on another of his bussinesses.

The CTC is a only viable because of the Sens.

Melnyk has been making money of the joint operations every year.

Why should Sens fans accept the team running at a budget when his operations based on the Sens are making money?

 

[JD1]

No one is claiming he is scamming money from the Sens. Do try and keep up.
Melnyk has arranged his holdings so that the Sens portion of his holdings posts a loss. He does this primarily for the PR he can generate to justify running the Sens on a budget and to generate sympathy from the fanbase.



Why would Melnyk's proven record as a lying fraudster, whose company paid M of dollars in fines for cooking the books and misleading the public and shareholders not be pertinent to this discussion?


Melnyk has the OPPORTUNITY to manipulate the situation to present the team as losing money.
He has the MOTIVATION to manipulate the situation to present the team as losing money.

Given his track record with Biovail and his other business operations, why would anyone take his claims at face value?

And since you are the one claiming intricate knowledge of business operations and accounting...

Please take a look at Melnyk's financial situation since he's bought the Sens and suggest the reasons for the increase in debt load for the Sens...

you've made the claim that he is scamming money....explain how...or shut up about it ....as I asked you, don't talk about motivation and opportunity...detail how...how is he doing this ...scamming money...making them lose money....jacking up the debt load ....how did he jack up the debt load....more importantly why

I have a very advanced understanding of business operations and accounting.....it's what I do for a living....I am self employed and I've owned several Canadian Controlled Private Corporations which is what the senators are....I make my living providing advice in this space....and when I sit down to explain finance and tax laws to people such as yourself that do not understand them my time is rather expensive....I have already explained why i think there's been an increase in the debt load ....you are just too obtuse to have understood what I said.....you should also read the information about Melnyk / biovail and ensure you understand what it was he was charged with and ultimately convicted of in Canada. Once you understand the article, and it appears you might need someone to explain it to you, post what you understand.....don't quote from it....post what you understand ....it was a very interesting and unprecedented decision....maybe you can explain it to me

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Biovail, for its part, has settled several regulatory matters and civil suits in an effort to put behind it a number of legal disputes that originated during Melnyk's time at the helm of the company.
The company agreed last year to pay a US$10 million fine to settle a U.S. regulator's charges of civil accounting fraud and deceiving investors and analysts.
It also reached a deal with the Ontario Securities Commission in January and agreed to pay $6.5 million including a record $5-million administrative penalty.

Melnyk agrees to pay US$1 million in SEC settlement; sells Biovail shares | The Hockey News

The Ontario Securities Commission and the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission accused the company and the executives of fraudulent accounting and making misleading statements.
Toronto-based Biovail has already settled the SEC's charges without admitting or denying the SEC's allegations and will pay a $10 million US penalty. The company also agreed to an examination of its accounting by an independent consultant.

OSC, SEC lay charges against Biovail, Melnyk, execs

Please tell me again how Eugene, when given the OPPORTUNITY and MOTIVATION to lie about the financials of his company wouldn't do so...

Anyone who takes Melnyk's word as reliable with regards to the Sens posting loses is a moron.

When the owner says the franchise breaks even, makes a small profit or has lost money at the end of season, I'll take his word for it, as he has to show his (franchise) books to the Lawyers and Accountants of the NHLPA each and every year ........... and if he was being purposely inaccurate and, it would soon become publicly known, as the NHLPA would file a suit against him.

What part of that don't you understand?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Nope, the NHLPA only sees the calculation of HRR. They have no right to see the books beyond that limited scope and would never be allowed to do so.

So the NHLPA takes the "word" of the 31 NHL owners.

So if all NHL owners show the NHLPA Lawyers and Accountants just the "Calculation" of HHR with NOTHING to back up the numbers .......and they all show an operating loss, they'll just belive it?




You have just proven you know absolute NOTHING about what you're talking about.

 

[Sensung]

When the owner says the franchise breaks even, makes a small profit or has lost money at the end of season, I'll take his word for it, as he has to show his (franchise) books to the Lawyers and Accountants of the NHLPA each and every year ........... and if he was being purposely inaccurate and, it would soon become publicly known, as the NHLPA would file a suit against him.

What part of that don't you understand?

Please post proof that the Sens owner shows his books to the NHLPA every year.

All he is required to do is show the books related to HRR which do not cover a large portion of the books related to the Sens and CTC.

The rental cost for the Sens is not HRR so the NHLPA would have no access to that info.

 

[Sensung]

So the NHLPA takes the "word" of the 31 NHL owners.

So if all NHL owners show the NHLPA Lawyers and Accountants just the "Calculation" of HHR with NOTHING to back up the numbers .......and they all show an operating loss, they'll just belive it?




You have just proven you know absolute NOTHING about what you're talking about.

The scope of HRR is clearly defined by the CBA. The NHLPA would have access to everything needed to calculate that figure and not one additional bit of information.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The scope of HRR is clearly defined by the CBA. The NHLPA would have access to everything needed to calculate that figure and not one additional bit of information.

Yes, HHR is defined in the CBA, in article 50. as ....

Hockey Related Revenues, Club Affiliated Entity and League Affiliated Entity.
(a)
"Hockey Related Revenues."
"Hockey Related Revenues" or "HRR" for each
League Year means the operating revenues, including Barter (as defined below), from all
sources, whether known or unknown, whether now in existence or created in the future, as
expressly set forth in this Section 50.1(a), of each Club or the League, for or with respect to that
League Year, as expressly set forth in this Section 50.1(a), on an accrual basis, derived or earned
from, relating to or arising directly or indirectly out of the playing of NHL hockey games or
NHL-related events in which current NHL Players participate or in which current NHL Players'
names and likenesses are used, by each such Club or the League, or attributable directly to the
Club or the League from a Club Affiliated Entity or League Affiliated Entity, as expressly set
forth herein, and is subject to any inclusions or exclusions as expressly set forth in the Article 50.


The parties have described Hockey Related Revenues with a non-exhaustive list
of Hockey Related Revenues (net of Direct Costs as defined herein, where specified herein), in
order to permit the inclusion of new revenue streams (net of Direct Costs where agreed upon
between the parties herein, or, failing agreement, by ruling of the System Arbitrator), to be
included automatically, without a new or separate negotiation, subject to the provisions below.


I wonder if Rent is a "Direct Cost" and if the NHLPA just takes the word of any NHL ower what any "Direct Cost" is, and how much it is, and how it was calculated .......... would you?


​

ARTICLE 50 50.12-50.12
(c)
"HRR Reporting Package" Defined; Preparation and Submission of HRR
Reporting Packages
.
For each League Year during the course of this Agreement, the
Independent Accountants shall generate a package of forms known as the HRR Reporting
Package. For purposes of reporting each Club's revenues and expenses, each Club shall fill out
and return to the Independent Accountants the applicable revenue and expense reporting sections
of such forms – which applicable sections also contain relevant sets of Schedules and
Instructions appended thereto (collectively, the pertinent forms, Schedules and Instructions shall
be known as the "HRR Reporting Package"). There shall be a section of the HRR Reporting
Package that pertains solely to League-level HRR and shall be completed by the NHL. "The
HRR Reporting Package 20XX-XX" is hereby incorporated into this Agreement as Exhibit
50.12.A, and in future League Years shall be similar in format and definitions

​

I also wonder if "rent" is an expense?

 

[ismelofhockey]

I thought only the revenues were considered for the league's revenue sharing, and so it wouldn't matter to the NHLPA how much Melnyk makes the Sens pay the CTC. The NHLPA needs only the revenue figures, not net income after expenditures. Right?
So Melnyk could claim losses and the NHLPA wouldn't care. All they care about is their share of gross income. So for example if the Sens' HRR is $100, $50 goes to the players, $5 goes to revenue sharing, $10 goes to staff, and the leftover $25 Melnyk can do whatever he wants with. So he could make the Sens pay $26 to the CTC to claim losses every year. Why should the NHLPA care? They got their share of HRR already.

 

[Sun God Nika]

I wonder if there is gonna be a presser on this? seems pretty significant. I also hope someone in the media asks Melnyk how he feels about the #MelnykOut movement and 80% of the fanbase wanting him to sell.

 

[Sensung]

Yes, HHR is defined in the CBA, in article 50. as ....

Hockey Related Revenues, Club Affiliated Entity and League Affiliated Entity.
(a)
"Hockey Related Revenues."
"Hockey Related Revenues" or "HRR" for each
League Year means the operating revenues, including Barter (as defined below), from all
sources, whether known or unknown, whether now in existence or created in the future, as
expressly set forth in this Section 50.1(a), of each Club or the League, for or with respect to that
League Year, as expressly set forth in this Section 50.1(a), on an accrual basis, derived or earned
from, relating to or arising directly or indirectly out of the playing of NHL hockey games or
NHL-related events in which current NHL Players participate or in which current NHL Players'
names and likenesses are used, by each such Club or the League, or attributable directly to the
Club or the League from a Club Affiliated Entity or League Affiliated Entity, as expressly set
forth herein, and is subject to any inclusions or exclusions as expressly set forth in the Article 50.


The parties have described Hockey Related Revenues with a non-exhaustive list
of Hockey Related Revenues (net of Direct Costs as defined herein, where specified herein), in
order to permit the inclusion of new revenue streams (net of Direct Costs where agreed upon
between the parties herein, or, failing agreement, by ruling of the System Arbitrator), to be
included automatically, without a new or separate negotiation, subject to the provisions below.


I wonder if Rent is a "Direct Cost" and if the NHLPA just takes the word of any NHL ower what any "Direct Cost" is, and how much it is, and how it was calculated .......... would you?


​

ARTICLE 50 50.12-50.12
(c)
"HRR Reporting Package" Defined; Preparation and Submission of HRR
Reporting Packages
.
For each League Year during the course of this Agreement, the
Independent Accountants shall generate a package of forms known as the HRR Reporting
Package. For purposes of reporting each Club's revenues and expenses, each Club shall fill out
and return to the Independent Accountants the applicable revenue and expense reporting sections
of such forms – which applicable sections also contain relevant sets of Schedules and
Instructions appended thereto (collectively, the pertinent forms, Schedules and Instructions shall
be known as the "HRR Reporting Package"). There shall be a section of the HRR Reporting
Package that pertains solely to League-level HRR and shall be completed by the NHL. "The
HRR Reporting Package 20XX-XX" is hereby incorporated into this Agreement as Exhibit
50.12.A, and in future League Years shall be similar in format and definitions

​

I also wonder if "rent" is an expense?

Revenues and expenses as applicable to HRR.

They get to see the books as they relate to Sens events only and not the Sens and CTC as a whole.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

If I am not mistaken, wasn't a huge contention during one of the lockouts was the PA not believing the NHL's financials and the NHL not allowing the PA to go over their books? The 2005 lockout I think.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Holy smokes it has gotten nasty in here! So much drama, and so little actual information available as fact. Crazy!

In my uneducated opinion it appears as though EM has decided that his hockey operation will be entirely funded by his hockey operation. On the surface that sounds reasonable to me, though of course I would prefer that he would throw money at the team (to be spent intelligently of course).

The three things I'm pretty certain about are 1: he's a huge Sens fan and wants them to win a cup or 3, 2: he's allowed the signing of all of our core players that the GM wanted signed, but doesn't seem to want to fund hockey operations beyond it's own revenue, and 3: he's cheesed off at the fan base for complaining about his spending while at the same time not spending to come watch games.

It appears to the average financial Joe out here in the field that he wants to win, but no longer has the funds, or stomach, to add money to the team beyond what it brings in. It seems like he doesn't want to lose money on the hockey operation side of things. I'm curious to know how many teams make a pure profit, or break even, off their hockey operations during the regular season.

He seems like a polarizing character for sure, though I generally avoid listening to him, but I'm not sure that means he's cheating and stealing from the team he owns and shamelessly loves.

I guess I'll get pegged as an apologist, clueless, moron, or EM himself, but it appears that the fans aren't coming out to the games, even on a long playoff run, and while there are a million excuses thrown around here, the reality is that it's reasonable for an owner to be annoyed by that behaviour when it is coupled with complaints about how he spends his money. I mean how dare the man criticize those fans who can't be bothered to buy tickets, when those same fans see no problem coming at him with both barrels blazing.

NHL hockey isn't a charity, generally speaking, if you want more money spent on the team, spend some money on the team. Lowest ticket prices in the country, it really doesn't get any better in Canada to see an NHL game regularly (other than the distance from town, apparently the in-game experience, parking for those who drive, and drunk people on the bus home).

Hopefully the DT arena makes the team more accessible to fans with more money than opinions.

 

[Sensung]

Holy smokes it has gotten nasty in here! So much drama, and so little actual information available as fact. Crazy!

In my uneducated opinion it appears as though EM has decided that his hockey operation will be entirely funded by his hockey operation. On the surface that sounds reasonable to me, though of course I would prefer that he would throw money at the team (to be spent intelligently of course).

The three things I'm pretty certain about are 1: he's a huge Sens fan and wants them to win a cup or 3, 2: he's allowed the signing of all of our core players that the GM wanted signed, but doesn't seem to want to fund hockey operations beyond it's own revenue, and 3: he's cheesed off at the fan base for complaining about his spending while at the same time not spending to come watch games.

It appears to the average financial Joe out here in the field that he wants to win, but no longer has the funds, or stomach, to add money to the team beyond what it brings in. It seems like he doesn't want to lose money on the hockey operation side of things. I'm curious to know how many teams make a pure profit, or break even, off their hockey operations during the regular season.

He seems like a polarizing character for sure, though I generally avoid listening to him, but I'm not sure that means he's cheating and stealing from the team he owns and shamelessly loves.

I guess I'll get pegged as an apologist, clueless, moron, or EM himself, but it appears that the fans aren't coming out to the games, even on a long playoff run, and while there are a million excuses thrown around here, the reality is that it's reasonable for an owner to be annoyed by that behaviour when it is coupled with complaints about how he spends his money. I mean how dare the man criticize those fans who can't be bothered to buy tickets, when those same fans see no problem coming at him with both barrels blazing.

NHL hockey isn't a charity, generally speaking, if you want more money spent on the team, spend some money on the team. Lowest ticket prices in the country, it really doesn't get any better in Canada to see an NHL game regularly (other than the distance from town, apparently the in-game experience, parking for those who drive, and drunk people on the bus home).

Hopefully the DT arena makes the team more accessible to fans with more money than opinions.

You are welcome to believe what you want.

I don't believe Menlyk is a Sens fan or cares about winning a cup.

He's in it for the $.

The hockey operations can be made to turn a profit or post a loss depending on how Eugene wants the books to look.

If you want to take the word of a man who has individually and corporately has been forced to pay millions of dollars in fines for his dishonesty, then that is your prerogative.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

You are welcome to believe what you want.

I don't believe Menlyk is a Sens fan or cares about winning a cup.

He's in it for the $.

The hockey operations can be made to turn a profit or post a loss depending on how Eugene wants the books to look.

If you want to take the word of a man who has individually and corporately has been forced to pay millions of dollars in fines for his dishonesty, then that is your prerogative.

I actually think Melnyk wants to win a cup and he is a fan, but he doesn't want to put forth what is needed to make the organization a top class one. I also am not a fan of the guy at all, btw, and would love to see him sell, but I do think he wants to see them win, but doesnt want to put the $ in to actually do it.

 

[Sensung]

you've made the claim that he is scamming money....explain how...or shut up about it ....as I asked you, don't talk about motivation and opportunity...detail how...how is he doing this ...scamming money...making them lose money....jacking up the debt load ....how did he jack up the debt load....more importantly why

I have a very advanced understanding of business operations and accounting.....it's what I do for a living....I am self employed and I've owned several Canadian Controlled Private Corporations which is what the senators are....I make my living providing advice in this space....and when I sit down to explain finance and tax laws to people such as yourself that do not understand them my time is rather expensive....I have already explained why i think there's been an increase in the debt load ....you are just too obtuse to have understood what I said.....you should also read the information about Melnyk / biovail and ensure you understand what it was he was charged with and ultimately convicted of in Canada. Once you understand the article, and it appears you might need someone to explain it to you, post what you understand.....don't quote from it....post what you understand ....it was a very interesting and unprecedented decision....maybe you can explain it to me

Please repost your assessment of why Melnyk has increased the debt load on the Sens. I must have missed it and would love hear from an expert such as yourself.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Revenues and expenses as applicable to HRR.

They get to see the books as they relate to Sens events only and not the Sens and CTC as a whole.

OMG, They only audit the Senators Franchise Books.

Revenues and expenses ........ expenses INCLUDE their rent!

That's what I've been saying all along.





Do you have reading comprehension issues????

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I wonder if there is gonna be a presser on this? seems pretty significant. I also hope someone in the media asks Melnyk how he feels about the #MelnykOut movement and 80% of the fanbase wanting him to sell.

Where did you get your 80% number from?

 

[Sensung]

OMG, They only audit the Senators Franchise Books.

Revenues and expenses ........ expenses INCLUDE their rent!

That's what I've been saying all along.





Do you have reading comprehension issues????

You claimed they get to see the books for the entire Sens operation.

They clearly dont

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You are welcome to believe what you want.

I don't believe Menlyk is a Sens fan or cares about winning a cup.

He's in it for the $.

The hockey operations can be made to turn a profit or post a loss depending on how Eugene wants the books to look.

So you claim he's cooking the Books.

Why has the accounting firm that audits the Senators Franchise's operation books, and reviews all their revenues and expenses not pick that up?

How much more of the NHL /NHLPA CBA do I have to post, to prove the Senators books are audited, every year?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You claimed they get to see the books for the entire Sens operation.

They clearly dont

Of course they do, how the heck do you think they determine what the revenues and expenses are?????

Did you not understand the sections of the CBA that I posted?

 

[coladin]

You will never get through to those three posters. They think blindly defending Melynk to the death makes them "super" fans. Nothing you say will change their minds.

It's not worth the aggravation.

So you and your sorry group blindly oppose and make things up. It is not defending, it is cutting the BS, which is a full time job with you guys here. A childish reaction for sure, but you are welcome to it.

 

[coladin]

Holy smokes it has gotten nasty in here! So much drama, and so little actual information available as fact. Crazy!

In my uneducated opinion it appears as though EM has decided that his hockey operation will be entirely funded by his hockey operation. On the surface that sounds reasonable to me, though of course I would prefer that he would throw money at the team (to be spent intelligently of course).

The three things I'm pretty certain about are 1: he's a huge Sens fan and wants them to win a cup or 3, 2: he's allowed the signing of all of our core players that the GM wanted signed, but doesn't seem to want to fund hockey operations beyond it's own revenue, and 3: he's cheesed off at the fan base for complaining about his spending while at the same time not spending to come watch games.

It appears to the average financial Joe out here in the field that he wants to win, but no longer has the funds, or stomach, to add money to the team beyond what it brings in. It seems like he doesn't want to lose money on the hockey operation side of things. I'm curious to know how many teams make a pure profit, or break even, off their hockey operations during the regular season.

He seems like a polarizing character for sure, though I generally avoid listening to him, but I'm not sure that means he's cheating and stealing from the team he owns and shamelessly loves.

I guess I'll get pegged as an apologist, clueless, moron, or EM himself, but it appears that the fans aren't coming out to the games, even on a long playoff run, and while there are a million excuses thrown around here, the reality is that it's reasonable for an owner to be annoyed by that behaviour when it is coupled with complaints about how he spends his money. I mean how dare the man criticize those fans who can't be bothered to buy tickets, when those same fans see no problem coming at him with both barrels blazing.

NHL hockey isn't a charity, generally speaking, if you want more money spent on the team, spend some money on the team. Lowest ticket prices in the country, it really doesn't get any better in Canada to see an NHL game regularly (other than the distance from town, apparently the in-game experience, parking for those who drive, and drunk people on the bus home).

Hopefully the DT arena makes the team more accessible to fans with more money than opinions.

You are right, NHL hockey isn't a charity except to The Entitled around here.