We have a new Sens CEO!

[Sensung]

Yes, you are claiming he's cooking the books, and have been doing so for over a week, when you did not realize that under the terms of the CBA, the NHLPA receives audit reports from the Senators Franchise, that reviews all revenues and expenses, including the rent that you were claiming he purposely manipulated to lower net profit.

I had to post actual excerpts from the CBA to convince you of that.



The only thing related to the Senators operations, as it relates to the CBA is the NHL Franchise called the Ottawa Senators.


The Bell Sens Plex(s), the CTC, the Sens Foundation and other related ( by name) operations do not factor into the purview of NHL/NHLPA CBA

No, I'm claiming he has set up his overall Sens operations so that the Hockey Operations lose money.

 

[Sensung]

Obviously you either did not read ARTICLE 50 50.12-50.12 (c)of the CBA, or more likley you don't understand it.

Rent is an expense that relates to the HRR calculation, as affects the Net Cost of operations.
You've been claiming the NHLPA does not have access to what the actual rent number is........and your entire argument hinged on Meknyk charging an obscene amount of rent to make it appear, in the books, that the Senators always lost money.

Here is is again. Please ask for help if you still can't understand it.



ARTICLE 50 50.12-50.12 (c)
"HRR Reporting Package" Defined; Preparation and Submission of HRR
Reporting Packages
.
For each League Year during the course of this Agreement, the
Independent Accountants shall generate a package of forms known as the HRR Reporting
Package. For purposes of reporting each Club's revenues and expenses, each Club shall fill out and return to the Independent Accountants the applicable revenue and expense reporting sections of such forms – which applicable sections also contain relevant sets of Schedules and
Instructions appended thereto (collectively, the pertinent forms, Schedules and Instructions shall be known as the "HRR Reporting Package"). There shall be a section of the HRR Reporting Package that pertains solely to League-level HRR and shall be completed by the NHL. "The HRR Reporting Package 20XX-XX" is hereby incorporated into this Agreement as Exhibit
50.12.A, and in future League Years shall be similar in format and definitions

The NHLPA does not care if the Sens Hockey Operations make an operating profit or not. They would have zero interest if Melnyk had set up the Sens to lose money. They only care that every penny of HRR is accounted for.

For instance, the Rent the CTC charges the Sens is NOT revenue and would not be something they care about.

 

[Sensung]

So please explain how the Accountants, that review the Senator's books, for the NHLPA, are so stupid that they can't figure out that the "books" are being "fixed"?

Once again, the NHLPA accountants could care less if the Sens hockey operations post a profit or loss. They want to make sure all HRR is accounted for.

Is the RENT paid by the SENS to the CTC HRR?

 

[Sensung]

Under the terms of the current CBA, only the Revenues and Expenses of the NHL Franchise are covered, and the books of the NHL Franchise alone, are reviewed by the Accounting firm that reports to the NHPLA each year.

This is quite simple to understand .......... so when a NHL owner says his franchise has lost money after the season, it's easily proven, or dis-proven, once the Accounting firm that reports to the NHPLA each year, after they carried out their audit of the NHL Franchise.

It is quite easy to understand.

Melnyk has the OPPORTUNITY to set up the Hockey Operations to post a loss.

Melnyk has the MOTIVATION to claim losses for public consumption as it helps him justify the budget cap and increases in prices of everything associated with the Sens. (I'm sure he gets tax benefits from this arrangement as well, but don't claim any expertise in this area)

Does the accounting firm that reviews the Hockey operations for the NHLPA release the financial documents they review? Please post the info for all to see...

And of course, this misses the central point that Melnyk is making money on his holdings in Ottawa, which has been what I have always maintained and you agree with?

Do you agree that the rent charged to NHL teams would vary a good deal from franchise to franchise?

Quick hypothetical for you. Is it possible that the CTC could choose to be at the high or low end of this range at Melnyk's discretion?

If so, do you admit that the cost of rent set by Melnyk COULD make a difference between hockey operations posting a loss or profit?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

No, I'm claiming he has set up his overall Sens operations so that the Hockey Operations lose money.

I've already proven that you had no clue about what you were talking about.

Now you desperately trying to save face.

The fact is that when an owner claims his team in losing/making money, everyone, except you, understands that he/she is talking only about the NHL Franchise only.

You've stated that the Senators' Owner was his accounting staff "fix the books" AKA Cook the books, to make it appear that the Senators Franchise is losing money, and thereby implying that his statement about the Senators losing money is a lie, and it's not.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The NHLPA does not care if the Sens Hockey Operations make an operating profit or not. They would have zero interest if Melnyk had set up the Sens to lose money. They only care that every penny of HRR is accounted for.

For instance, the Rent the CTC charges the Sens is NOT revenue and would not be something they care about.

What part about "revenue and expenses" did you not understand in the Article copy and pasted directly from the CBA did you not under stand?

You state that you believe that Melnyk is "fixing the books" to make it look like the Sens are losing money. You point directly to the Rent being charged as the most likley way that Melnyk is "fixing the books" ... and you don't believe him ....... so how do you expect the Accounting firm that audits the Senators "revenues and expenses" as stated in the CBA, believes what the amount claimed by the Senators, that they're being charged for rent, is true?

I'll tell you why, it's because they've audited the "revenues and expenses", which includes the rent being charged.

Just what part of that don't you understand?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Once again, the NHLPA accountants could care less if the Sens hockey operations post a profit or loss. They want to make sure all HRR is accounted for.

Is the RENT paid by the SENS to the CTC HRR?

It's an expense, and the article that I posted from the CBA clearly shows that the accounting firms reviews the "revenues and expenses".

Tell us how the profit, or loss is determined, if you only review the money coming in AKA revenue, and not the money going out AKA expenses?

 

[BatherSeason]

Alright alright, alright. Lets all agree on one thing, Melnyk is a terrible owner. If Kalsson leaves, it was in part due to Melnyk, Turris left, partially because of Melnyk, Alfie left because of Melnyk, Leeder, Anselmi, etc......you get the point. No matter who you are, you gotta think all of these departures have something in common, whether it has been stated publicly or not. We should all be able to agree on one thing and that is that this guy has no business being the CEO of a professional sports team, that is the topic of this thread right?? This isn't Junior A, this is a professional sports organization. So please, there is no need to argue with all of "HFBoards' Melnyk Army", just let them spew their nonsense, ignore them and lets move on.

 

[BonkTastic]

It's an expense, and the article that I posted from the CBA clearly shows that the accounting firms reviews the "revenues and expenses".

Tell us how the profit, or loss is determined, if you only review the money coming in AKA revenue, and not the money going out AKA expenses?

You really need to google the term "Hollywood Accounting", and expose yourself to the seedy underworld of vertical integration and the tactical art of spreading profit and debt around to your advantage.

Melnyk owns the arena. Arena revenue is not included in hockey revenue. Melnyk the arena owner (not an NHL revenue stream) charges Melnyk the Senators owner (an NHL revenue stream) a high rent fee. To Melnyk, it's all the same, because to him it's money in/ money out. But for accounting purposes, it adds more revenue to the Arena side of the business (non NHL revenue), and creates artificial debt on the Sens ledger, and then can claim a loss at the end of the year.

 

[Sensung]

It's an expense, and the article that I posted from the CBA clearly shows that the accounting firms reviews the "revenues and expenses".

Tell us how the profit, or loss is determined, if you only review the money coming in AKA revenue, and not the money going out AKA expenses?

So the NHLPA would do what if Melnyk moved the rent cost up or down by 5M?

They wouldn't care as it has no effect on revenue and cant be used to hide revenue.

 

[Sensung]

What part about "revenue and expenses" did you not understand in the Article copy and pasted directly from the CBA did you not under stand?

You state that you believe that Melnyk is "fixing the books" to make it look like the Sens are losing money. You point directly to the Rent being charged as the most likley way that Melnyk is "fixing the books" ... and you don't believe him ....... so how do you expect the Accounting firm that audits the Senators "revenues and expenses" as stated in the CBA, believes what the amount claimed by the Senators, that they're being charged for rent, is true?

I'll tell you why, it's because they've audited the "revenues and expenses", which includes the rent being charged.

Just what part of that don't you understand?

Do the NHLPA accountants get to see what the CTC chatges the Sens for rent? Sure

Do they care?

Nope.

What do you think happens to HRR if Melnyk moves the rent up or down 10M?

Please explain why the NHLPA should care.

Does the public get to see the books presented to the NHLPA?

Do you have any proof that Melnyk is quoting from those books when he makes a PR statement claiming a loss?

And here's the clincher...I never claimed Melnyk hadn't set up the Sens hockey operations to lose money. The rent angle is just one way he can manipulate the books.

 

[slamigo]

Why on Earth does everyone think Melnyk is hiding profit and pretending the team is losing money?
Seriously. There was a reason the team had filed for bankruptcy when he purchased it. Bryden wasn't printing money out in Kanata.
And yes, certainly, the team has appreciated as an asset but only if Melnyk sells it. Otherwise, if he is just operating the team, it has a real struggle to make money. That struggle is heavily dependent on sales at the gate, playoff revenue, TV revenue and the fluctuation of the US dollar.
I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be more productive if the folks on these boards started trying to use the cumulative intelligence of the collective fanbase to come up with actual solutions as to how a major sports team can thrive in a small market, govt job town.

 

[Sensung]

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be more productive if the folks on these boards started trying to use the cumulative intelligence of the collective fanbase to come up with actual solutions as to how a major sports team can thrive in a small market, govt job town.

Step 1 REPLACE THE OWNER

 

[Zorf]

Why on Earth does everyone think Melnyk is hiding profit and pretending the team is losing money?
Seriously. There was a reason the team had filed for bankruptcy when he purchased it. Bryden wasn't printing money out in Kanata.
And yes, certainly, the team has appreciated as an asset but only if Melnyk sells it. Otherwise, if he is just operating the team, it has a real struggle to make money. That struggle is heavily dependent on sales at the gate, playoff revenue, TV revenue and the fluctuation of the US dollar.
I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be more productive if the folks on these boards started trying to use the cumulative intelligence of the collective fanbase to come up with actual solutions as to how a major sports team can thrive in a small market, govt job town.

That takes effort.

It's much easier to complain and then do nothing about it.



I'm all for a new owner. Melnyk has burned pretty much every bridge possible between himself and the fans. his problem is that Ottawa fans aren't dumb, but he's hoping that we are.

IF Melnyk refuses to sell, then he's got to start spending money and making an effort for fans to start showing up in droves again. You want a sold out house for all 41 games? Then start doing something, damnit. Raising parking fees, talking about how you're running a bare bones operation, limiting the giveaways, all of that reeks of a cheap owner who's just in this for the bottom line and not anything else.

Remember when he first bought the team? All he talked about was winning the Cup. That was it. At the same time, all we heard from the loser organizations like the Maple Leafs (at the time) were "We just need to make the playoffs then anything can happen." That's crap. That's a loser's mentality. When Eugene bought the team it was Cup or bust.

Now it's "let's find a way to cut as many costs as possible but still sell lots of season ticket packages...but no one is buying them because we're cutting costs...so I'm going to complain about the fans...yeah, that's the trick." When's the last time that Eugene spoke with bravado about winning the Cup? Now it's "we need to make the 2nd round of the playoffs for me to turn a profit." Ummm, in all sincerity, Eugene, go f*** yourself if that's all you're in it for these days.


What the goddam hell is that? Who wants to support that? It's BS.

Yes, we SHOULD support the team, but holy hell, it's really hard to justify it these days.



Edit. Before Coladin rides in here on his high horse to berate me, yes, I still go to games. Not as many as before, but I also didn't have 3 kids before, so now I have less money to spend on fun stuff anyways.

 

[slamigo]

Yeah, to be clear, I'm not defending EM.

BUT, I do think the general concerns about Ottawa as a market are valid. And smart hockey fans know that you can't expect to win the Cup every year. Or even every 20 years. That side is just icing on the cake if it ever even happens. Fans want to show up and be entertained. Winning is an extra bonus. The on-ice product has to be entertaining. Trap-style defence first hockey is not. I can't even watch a full game at home on my TV. It's too boring. I was at the TBL-OTT game last month and it was crazy. Nine goals scored. Lots of fun. I don't want to watch robots implement a system. Just let the talent play.

Which makes me wonder how much of the attendance issue is directly linked to implementing tedious boring systems?

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Yeah, to be clear, I'm not defending EM.

BUT, I do think the general concerns about Ottawa as a market are valid. And smart hockey fans know that you can't expect to win the Cup every year. Or even every 20 years. That side is just icing on the cake if it ever even happens. Fans want to show up and be entertained. Winning is an extra bonus. The on-ice product has to be entertaining. Trap-style defence first hockey is not. I can't even watch a full game at home on my TV. It's too boring. I was at the TBL-OTT game last month and it was crazy. Nine goals scored. Lots of fun. I don't want to watch robots implement a system. Just let the talent play.

Which makes me wonder how much of the attendance issue is directly linked to implementing tedious boring systems?

What exactly is the point of owning a sports franchise though if you're not willing to put money into it? If Melnyk's intention was to turn a profit year after year with owning a pro sports franchise I think he is pretty dumb. Kind of a quick summary article, but interesting: Billionaires are buying sports teams for different reasons than they used to

"One billionaire told us that you do not really buy sports clubs for financial returns," the report said. "Instead it opens the door to amazing people - you sit at the table with 'stars, sheikhs, famous businessmen and regular guys from around the world, all in the same room, all talking only about the ball.'"

To me I equate it with owning a Ferrari but not being able to afford the gas to fill it up.

 

[slamigo]

Well, EM has always liked hockey and used to own the St. Michael Majors. That wasn't for profit. I think he just got a kick out of it. Same thing with the horses.

If he is as distressed by the drama around the team (self-fulfilling prophecy?) and thinks that inserting himself into the equation as master of all will fix the mess, then that's his prerogative. Personally, I think he just sees this as a vanity project that is tied to his name. If the team isn't doing well, then his name is besmirched. I think he believes that only he can right the ship. Typical type A personality.

 

[coladin]

You really need to google the term "Hollywood Accounting", and expose yourself to the seedy underworld of vertical integration and the tactical art of spreading profit and debt around to your advantage.

Melnyk owns the arena. Arena revenue is not included in hockey revenue. Melnyk the arena owner (not an NHL revenue stream) charges Melnyk the Senators owner (an NHL revenue stream) a high rent fee. To Melnyk, it's all the same, because to him it's money in/ money out. But for accounting purposes, it adds more revenue to the Arena side of the business (non NHL revenue), and creates artificial debt on the Sens ledger, and then can claim a loss at the end of the year.

How is he any further ahead? He is paying either way, whether it is profit from CTC , or profit from the Senators, it will cost money. Whether CTC as a business loses money or Sens make money, it is the same tax structure.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Well, EM has always liked hockey and used to own the St. Michael Majors. That wasn't for profit. I think he just got a kick out of it. Same thing with the horses.

If he is as distressed by the drama around the team (self-fulfilling prophecy?) and thinks that inserting himself into the equation as master of all will fix the mess, then that's his prerogative. Personally, I think he just sees this as a vanity project that is tied to his name. If the team isn't doing well, then his name is besmirched. I think he believes that only he can right the ship. Typical type A personality.

I think owning a minor league/junior franchise is probably more up his alley. I see it as a vanity project too, but one he really doesn't want to put money into to keep.

Back to the Ferrari analogy, he wants the Ferrari, but doesnt want to pay the $8000 oil changes and routine maintenance for said Ferrari.

But I agree, it's his team, its his perogative and he can essentially do what he wants as long as he doesnt piss off the NHL and the BoG or any owners who yield any power in the fraternity that is the NHL. But like, just dont expect fans to hand over their hard earned money when Melnyk is doing Melnyk things either.

If you want to support the team still that's awesome and great, more power to you, but if some fans are saying this guy is a clown and I am out until things change, I completely understand that as well.

 

[coladin]

I think owning a minor league/junior franchise is probably more up his alley. I see it as a vanity project too, but one he really doesn't want to put money into to keep.

Back to the Ferrari analogy, he wants the Ferrari, but doesnt want to pay the $8000 oil changes and routine maintenance for said Ferrari.

But I agree, it's his team, its his perogative and he can essentially do what he wants as long as he doesnt piss off the NHL and the BoG or any owners who yield any power in the fraternity that is the NHL. But like, just dont expect fans to hand over their hard earned money when Melnyk is doing Melnyk things either.

If you want to support the team still that's awesome and great, more power to you, but if some fans are saying this guy is a clown and I am out until things change, I completely understand that as well.

You may want to change your analogy to a taxi rather than a Ferrari, as it would make more sense. And see where that takes you.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

You may want to change your analogy to a taxi rather than a Ferrari, as it would make more sense. And see where that takes you.

Hmm not sure I follow the Taxi thing, I picked Ferrari because:
1. Need the initial payment
2. Upkeep is expensive
3. Its possible with exotic cars the value could rise, like a lot of sports franchises now, although the value could be inflated (did you just see the NBA franchise value list from Forbes? yeesh)
4. You're in a certain circle when you own said car/pro sports franchise owner

Anyway, you gotta pay to play if you want to be a pro sports franchise owner, Melnyk wants to play but not pay anymore. We shall see how long that strategy works out for him.

 

[slamigo]

Back to the Ferrari analogy, he wants the Ferrari, but doesnt want to pay the $8000 oil changes and routine maintenance for said Ferrari.

Oh, like when Archer bought a Ferrari...

 

[coladin]

Hmm not sure I follow the Taxi thing, I picked Ferrari because:
1. Need the initial payment
2. Upkeep is expensive
3. Its possible with exotic cars the value could rise, like a lot of sports franchises now, although the value could be inflated (did you just see the NBA franchise value list from Forbes? yeesh)
4. You're in a certain circle when you own said car/pro sports franchise owner

Anyway, you gotta pay to play if you want to be a pro sports franchise owner, Melnyk wants to play but not pay anymore. We shall see how long that strategy works out for him.

Melnyk buys the taxi to make money to cover the gas, oil changes, etc...hey maybe he gets one of those exotic car rentals, that would actually work! Now if his rental Ferrari isn't cutting it, he can shop around for better rates for maintenance, insurance, cheaper gas lol. Maybe spruce up the interior, cheaper rides, or drive faster and scarier, sober of course!

 

[BonkTastic]

How is he any further ahead? He is paying either way, whether it is profit from CTC , or profit from the Senators, it will cost money. Whether CTC as a business loses money or Sens make money, it is the same tax structure.

Remind me to respond to this when I'm not on mobile.

 

[coladin]

Remind me to respond to this when I'm not on mobile.

Don't worry about it!