Confirmed with Link: Vrana @50%

[Brian39]

That tells you exactly what kind of value he had: practically none, even at 50% retention.

And to everyone thinking Yzerman did us some favor here for all we did for him in past trades: If he thought Vrana could provide any value to the team, he'd still be in Detroit.

He's not, and he didn't get called up until the Red Wings were pretty much out of other options. That should speak volumes about the value Yzerman thought he could provide.

I don't think anyone believes that he passed up 3rd mid-round pick from other teams in order to give him to us for a 7th. Relationships and IOUs don't overcome tangible differences in value.

What we are saying is that no one was offering that value and it became clear to Y that his options were to move half his cap space for basically nothing or keep a player he doesn't want. Once he got to that point, those type of considerations creep in. He knows that he got Fabbri because our GM wanted to put the player in position to succeed and worked with Y to do it.

If you have 3 GMs that texted you offering a 7th rounder and have to decide which one to call back, it is human nature for your first call to be the GM who made a similar deal in your favor a few years ago. If 5 of your buddies all ask for your help moving next week and exactly one of them showed up to help with your move 2 years ago, which one are you most likely to help out next weekend?

Relationships are part of transactional business deals, especially in a market where there are less than 3 dozen businesses to deal with in a multi-billion dollar industry. Everyone who negotiates for a living has 'called in a favor' at some point in their career. Sometimes it is explicit and other times it is more subtle. But anyone who hasn't/doesn't/won't leverage their relationship with the party on the other side of the table to get a deal done won't be in that career for long.

IOUs absolutely exist in pro sports. They don't overcome large value gaps, but they absolutely bridge small gaps and determine the outcome of some deals.

 

[TurgPavs]

Vrana is a hot mess. There was a massive issue with Cocaine in the Caps locker room a few years back and Kuznetsov (Tested Positive) and Vrana, where said to be the center of those issues. IMO bad bad bad move briing in a guy who has a history of substance abuse, into your locker room.

Kevin Stevens was a pretty damn good player until he started hitting the white powder slopes.

Vrana is a mess and yeah you got him for a 50% cap hit, 7th round pick, and a undrafted prospect, but this is a massive risk, bringing this into your club house.

 

[Stealth JD]

does he have a drug problem, or a drug habit? cuz if he can hold his shit together for 12-months and score at a 30-goal pace, I'm sure the Blues can turn a blind eye to the habit.

kidding / not kidding.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Vrana is a hot mess. There was a massive issue with Cocaine in the Caps locker room a few years back and Kuznetsov (Tested Positive) and Vrana, where said to be the center of those issues. IMO bad bad bad move briing in a guy who has a history of substance abuse, into your locker room.

Kevin Stevens was a pretty damn good player until he started hitting the white powder slopes.

Vrana is a mess and yeah you got him for a 50% cap hit, 7th round pick, and a undrafted prospect, but this is a massive risk, bringing this into your club house.

Whether you’re right or not about his history with the Caps, I’d say it’s a very safe assumption Army knows a lot more about where he’s at with his recovery than you. Or any of us here.

The guy entered the assistance program and then exited it. Get the guy a good support structure and he could very well be just fine.

I’ve had my issues with some of Army’s moves over the years but this isn’t his first rodeo. I think the guy knows how to research situations and make a proper risk/reward, cost/benefit analysis.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Whether you’re right or not about his history with the Caps, I’d say it’s a very safe assumption Army knows a lot more about where he’s at with his recovery than you. Or any of us here.

The guy entered the assistance program and then exited it. Get the guy a good support structure and he could very well be just fine.

I’ve had my issues with some of Army’s moves over the years but this isn’t his first rodeo. I think the guy knows how to research situations and make a proper risk/reward, cost/benefit analysis.

Plus we just went through all this with a guy in Monty. I think the Blues have a good framework/structure in place for people who have had issues before, or at least we have relevant recent experience we can bring to bear on the topic. I know Brian has mentioned the IOU thing between our GMs, but I also wonder if Y saw how it worked out here for Monty and that factored into his decision on where to send Vrana.

 

[Brian39]

I am torn on the trade. Vrana obviously has skills, but personal issues and injuries have derailed his career. We paid nothing in trade/draft/propsect pool capital.

But it is another struggling one dimensional winger eating into our cap that I'd rather use to fix the defense and get some Cs. I want at least 2 Cs added to this roster. Right now we have Thomas, Schenn and Alexandrov who is a 4th liner max. We need at least a 3C and I'd love a 2C that could shift Schenn to wing so we'd have more flexibility with lineups. But we don't have cap.

I won't be surprised totally if Vrana or Kapanen find a role beyond next year. I wouldn't bet on it. They are middle 6 guys who need to play top 6. Kapanen is doing ok but not great because he is getting top 6 linemates. When its time to compete and our prospects graduate, I'd rather give them that role. If we are going to be good, we need players better than Kapanen playing with Thomas, Kyrou, Buchnevich.

These moves basically tell me that Armstrong knows we will be bad next year. Vrana and Kapanen can find a role on bad teams. Its why they were waived by playoff (or near playoff) teams. There is no place for them on a deep cap compliant team.

I'd push back on this assessment a bit with Vrana.

Vrana had good line mates in Washington, but his even strength minutes were always outside the top 6 in their forward group and he was very rarely on their top PP unit. Outside of a few games where Ovie was out of the lineup, he was absolutely never on their 1st line. His most frequent center was their #2 guy, Kuznetsov. When the Caps put Kuzy with Ovie, Vrana played 735 with Backstrom and 525 with Eller. Absolutely a lean toward the 2nd line, but a hefty amount of 3rd line usage too. All in all, he was never the 1LW, was mostly the 2LW and spent about a quarter of his minutes with the 3C. He was always 7th or lower in total even strength minutes and only saw top PP time when guys got hurt.

I think I'd call that middle 6 usage more than top 6 usage. And those teams certainly weren't bad, so it isn't like he was just getting minutes by default. He scored at a 25 goal pace in those 3 years while averaging about 14:30 a night. All but 2 of his goals came at even strength.

In Detroit, he got an elevated role since they were bad. I think it is fair to say he was in their top 6 prior to this season and he played at a 46 goal pace in that role (in a small 42 game sample).

There isn't really any sample to look at where he's struggled to produce. He never got clear top 6 usage in Washington and produced very well. He scored in bunches on a bad Wings team prior to injuries and a stint in the player assistance program (and maybe other stuff we don't know about) destroying that relationship and causing Y to sour on him.

On talent, I think he is more than a middle 6 guy. He's played like a top 6 guy when he's been there and plays like a good middle 6 guy when there. I don't think he's a middle 6 talent that just falls into production by getting great usage on bad teams. For the short term, we needed wingers just as bad as centers and I don't think getting a comparable center for comparable money was realistic.

 

[TheDizee]

Vrana is a hot mess. There was a massive issue with Cocaine in the Caps locker room a few years back and Kuznetsov (Tested Positive) and Vrana, where said to be the center of those issues. IMO bad bad bad move briing in a guy who has a history of substance abuse, into your locker room.

Kevin Stevens was a pretty damn good player until he started hitting the white powder slopes.

Vrana is a mess and yeah you got him for a 50% cap hit, 7th round pick, and a undrafted prospect, but this is a massive risk, bringing this into your club house.

sounds like the fortnite gaming parties will be a blast then.

 

[Majorityof1]

I'd push back on this assessment a bit with Vrana.

Vrana had good line mates in Washington, but his even strength minutes were always outside the top 6 in their forward group and he was very rarely on their top PP unit. Outside of a few games where Ovie was out of the lineup, he was absolutely never on their 1st line. His most frequent center was their #2 guy, Kuznetsov. When the Caps put Kuzy with Ovie, Vrana played 735 with Backstrom and 525 with Eller. Absolutely a lean toward the 2nd line, but a hefty amount of 3rd line usage too. All in all, he was never the 1LW, was mostly the 2LW and spent about a quarter of his minutes with the 3C. He was always 7th or lower in total even strength minutes and only saw top PP time when guys got hurt.

I think I'd call that middle 6 usage more than top 6 usage. And those teams certainly weren't bad, so it isn't like he was just getting minutes by default. He scored at a 25 goal pace in those 3 years while averaging about 14:30 a night. All but 2 of his goals came at even strength.

In Detroit, he got an elevated role since they were bad. I think it is fair to say he was in their top 6 prior to this season and he played at a 46 goal pace in that role (in a small 42 game sample).

There isn't really any sample to look at where he's struggled to produce. He never got clear top 6 usage in Washington and produced very well. He scored in bunches on a bad Wings team prior to injuries and a stint in the player assistance program (and maybe other stuff we don't know about) destroying that relationship and causing Y to sour on him.

On talent, I think he is more than a middle 6 guy. He's played like a top 6 guy when he's been there and plays like a middle 6 guy when there. For the short term, we needed wingers just as bad as centers and I don't think getting a comparable center for comparable money was realistic.

I more meant he isn't suited for a defensive line than he needs top 6 minutes. Although he probably had to be more defensive minded playing with Eller. Unless they were just hoping Eller could cover him. Basically he isn't good defensively, and if we want a shutdown line with Saad and a defensive C, that is not a line Vrana should be on. His inability to get top 6 miunutes does not mean he is well suited to a more cycling/defensive line, it means his coaches were not comfortable giving him more minutes despite producing offensively.

 

[BlueDream]

I am torn on the trade. Vrana obviously has skills, but personal issues and injuries have derailed his career. We paid nothing in trade/draft/propsect pool capital.

But it is another struggling one dimensional winger eating into our cap that I'd rather use to fix the defense and get some Cs. I want at least 2 Cs added to this roster. Right now we have Thomas, Schenn and Alexandrov who is a 4th liner max. We need at least a 3C and I'd love a 2C that could shift Schenn to wing so we'd have more flexibility with lineups. But we don't have cap.

I won't be surprised totally if Vrana or Kapanen find a role beyond next year. I wouldn't bet on it. They are middle 6 guys who need to play top 6. Kapanen is doing ok but not great because he is getting top 6 linemates. When its time to compete and our prospects graduate, I'd rather give them that role. If we are going to be good, we need players better than Kapanen playing with Thomas, Kyrou, Buchnevich.

These moves basically tell me that Armstrong knows we will be bad next year. Vrana and Kapanen can find a role on bad teams. Its why they were waived by playoff (or near playoff) teams. There is no place for them on a deep cap compliant team.

Not true at all. Vrana has already been part of a deep Cup winning team. He wasn’t waived because of what he does on the ice.

Vrana is a hot mess. There was a massive issue with Cocaine in the Caps locker room a few years back and Kuznetsov (Tested Positive) and Vrana, where said to be the center of those issues. IMO bad bad bad move briing in a guy who has a history of substance abuse, into your locker room.

Kevin Stevens was a pretty damn good player until he started hitting the white powder slopes.

Vrana is a mess and yeah you got him for a 50% cap hit, 7th round pick, and a undrafted prospect, but this is a massive risk, bringing this into your club house.

Guarantee there are players on every team who do cocaine. Bringing a player in who has done it in the past is literally not an issue whatsoever. It won’t be anything hockey players haven’t seen before. It’s just making sure he can control himself, but it seems most players have had success with the Player Assistance Program.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don't think anyone believes that he passed up 3rd mid-round pick from other teams in order to give him to us for a 7th. Relationships and IOUs don't overcome tangible differences in value.

What we are saying is that no one was offering that value and it became clear to Y that his options were to move half his cap space for basically nothing or keep a player he doesn't want. Once he got to that point, those type of considerations creep in. He knows that he got Fabbri because our GM wanted to put the player in position to succeed and worked with Y to do it.

If you have 3 GMs that texted you offering a 7th rounder and have to decide which one to call back, it is human nature for your first call to be the GM who made a similar deal in your favor a few years ago. If 5 of your buddies all ask for your help moving next week and exactly one of them showed up to help with your move 2 years ago, which one are you most likely to help out next weekend?

Relationships are part of transactional business deals, especially in a market where there are less than 3 dozen businesses to deal with in a multi-billion dollar industry. Everyone who negotiates for a living has 'called in a favor' at some point in their career. Sometimes it is explicit and other times it is more subtle. But anyone who hasn't/doesn't/won't leverage their relationship with the party on the other side of the table to get a deal done won't be in that career for long.

IOUs absolutely exist in pro sports. They don't overcome large value gaps, but they absolutely bridge small gaps and determine the outcome of some deals.

Read what some of your fellow Blues fans are saying, especially the ones who think it's a favor for us sending them Walman et. al., then see how much you want to edit this wall of text.

 

[Majorityof1]

Not true at all. Vrana has already been part of a deep Cup winning team. He wasn’t waived because of what he does on the ice.

Give me a call when we get an multiple Hart winning Ovechkin and Norris winning Carlson. We don't have that level of high end talent. We won our cup with depth, not superstars. For a DEEP successful team, you need most guys pulling the oars on both ends of the ice. We can't shelter multiple poor defesnive players and be successful.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Read what some of your fellow Blues fans are saying, especially the ones who think it's a favor for us sending them Walman et. al., then see how much you want to edit this wall of text.

Then, you simply misunderstood what was said. The relationship between Army and Yzerman is that of trust. Yes, of course Vrana didn't have much league wide value, no one is saying he passed on a 3rd with no retention to send him to us at 50% retention for a 7th. What we are saying is, Yzerman did Vrana a solid by giving him an opportunity on a team with a top 6 opening, and on a team with a GM and structure in place that he believes would help Vrana with his off ice issues. It's less about the return, and it's not even about doing Army a solid, but it's about doing right by Vrana, putting him in a good spot. Because of the spot we are in, the relationship Army has with Yzerman, we just happened to be the beneficiary of it.

If Yzerman and Army didn't have as tight of a relationship, we might not get Vrana for a variety of different reasons. If a same or slightly better deal was offered by a GM and team that Yzerman doesn't have as much of a relationship with, he still probably chooses Army because the difference in return is minimal, and this is a better spot for Vrana.

Again, it's really more about putting the player in a spot to succeed, and that will tend to be with GMs that you have positive relationships with.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It's also something that agents take note of. Besides how long Tarasenko took and how the Berglund deal went down, I don't think I've heard a negative thing said about Army from an agent, most respect how he handles these situations and puts people where they want to be, ROR didn't have a NTC, but Army knew Toronto was a spot he wanted to be in. Agents also know if the organizations that have good support systems in place, and while with a coach is a bit different, I think Monty was a big positive for that. We'll give 2nd chances/opportunities and do our best to make them successful.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Give me a call when we get an multiple Hart winning Ovechkin and Norris winning Carlson. We don't have that level of high end talent. We won our cup with depth, not superstars. For a DEEP successful team, you need most guys pulling the oars on both ends of the ice. We can't shelter multiple poor defesnive players and be successful.

People really over-value defensive contributions from forwards. We won in 2019 with Tarasenko, Maroon, Thomas (As a rookie - he's gotten much better), Perron, Sanford, and Fabbri. None of those guys are great or even good defensively. Schenn is kinda weird too, he's honestly pretty terrible at faceoffs (kinda important for a center, especially if we're talking defense) but he plays physical so yay? Our best defensive forwards were clearly ROR, Schwartz, Steen, Bozak (Big points for being excellent at faceoffs), and Sunny. Maybe BBshev as an honorable mention. That's 5/6 guys total on the roster that I'd say were true plus defenders.

Kapenen is a solid 200 foot player. He's already blocked a bunch of big shots for us in two games. He played PK in Toronto. He'll be fine. Buch and Saad are both plus defensive players. Schenn is who he was in 2019, and Thomas has improved. I think the coaching staff should be doing way more to coax Toropchenko to use his incredible combination of size/speed/reach to become an absolute forechecking and backchecking demon. I feel that he has so much more to give then he has shown. Alexandrov looked incredible last night, if he can continue to bring maybe not that level but just below it consistently he's going to be a gem. Blais hits everything in sight. Neighbors needs to get up to speed in the NHL, but he plays a type of game that should translate well to the defensive side of things (How much of a bummer is it that he's injured right now, these could have been really important games for him to get some NHL reps). We still have a spot or two left to grab some solid, defensively responsible players and put them in our top 6.

We are not sheltering any more poor defensive players then we were in 2019. The biggest difference b/t then and now is we don't have a perennial potential Norris finalist anchoring our blue line. I don't care how many great defensive forwards you have, if you don't have that guy, ceiling for team D is only so high.

 

[oPlaiD]

There's no downside until the cocaine bear bursts through the locker room doors.

But seriously, getting him for retention is kind of interesting. This is a "reclamation project" where there is actually something to be reclaimed. A lot of the high draft pedigree guys people always want to pick up off waivers or for a 7th rounder just weren't good and were never going to be good and a change of scenery isn't going to make a difference.

With Vrana, he's had good numbers before and there are indications that the best seasons of his career could still be in the future, given his 5v5 goal rates.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I don't mind this as a cheap one year bandaid until Snuggy and/or Bolduc show they can contribute in the NHL. Not expecting much tho

 

[Majorityof1]

We are not sheltering any more poor defensive players then we were in 2019. The biggest difference b/t then and now is we don't have a perennial potential Norris finalist anchoring our blue line. I don't care how many great defensive forwards you have, if you don't have that guy, ceiling for team D is only so high.

Or a Selke winning C.

I completely disagree that its not important to have good defensive forwards. They don't all have to be good defensively, but you need some to shelter your offensive guys. Buch is good defensively, but I'd rather him be on an offensive line because he is also better offensively than the poor defensive guys.

Kap tries to play D, and I may be selling him short lumping him with Vrana who doesn't. But he isn't great at it. He didn't get a ton of PK, but did get some. But PK is different than 5v5 D. Its more about in zone D and less about transitional D and forechecking.

 

[STL fan in MN]

Lots of hand wringing over the defensive capabilities of Kap and Vrana. Guys, we’re dumpster diving here for stop-gap options. There’s a chance we find a nugget of gold in the dumpster but it’s still going to have some blemishes.

They’re low risk moves to act as stop-gaps while our young guys continue to develop and Army slowly tinkers to improve the lineup. Better options would almost certainly come with higher cost (in terms of dollars and assets going the other way) or term. Army wants stop-gap options for now.

There’s also a lot of time and opportunity between now and the start of training camp. I’d bed the team will make a significant move or two between now and then. But even then, I don’t expect them to be good next season. Maybe ok. Not good but not embarrassing bad like CHI, SJ, CLB and ANA this season. It’s likely going to be a tough couple of years before we can rebuild our way out.

 

[TheDizee]

Lots of hand wringing over the defensive capabilities of Kap and Vrana. Guys, we’re dumpster diving here for stop-gap options. There’s a chance we find a nugget of gold in the dumpster but it’s still going to have some blemishes.

They’re low risk moves to act as stop-gaps while our young guys continue to develop and Army slowly tinkers to improve the lineup. Better options would almost certainly come with higher cost (in terms of dollars and assets going the other way) or term. Army wants stop-gap options for now.

There’s also a lot of time and opportunity between now and the start of training camp. I’d bed the team will make a significant move or two between now and then. But even then, I don’t expect them to be good next season. Maybe ok. Not good but not embarrassing bad like CHI, SJ, CLB and ANA this season. It’s likely going to be a tough couple of years before we can rebuild our way out.

did someone say dumpster diving?

 

[Blueston]

People really over-value defensive contributions from forwards. We won in 2019 with Tarasenko, Maroon, Thomas (As a rookie - he's gotten much better), Perron, Sanford, and Fabbri. None of those guys are great or even good defensively. Schenn is kinda weird too, he's honestly pretty terrible at faceoffs (kinda important for a center, especially if we're talking defense) but he plays physical so yay? Our best defensive forwards were clearly ROR, Schwartz, Steen, Bozak (Big points for being excellent at faceoffs), and Sunny. Maybe BBshev as an honorable mention. That's 5/6 guys total on the roster that I'd say were true plus defenders.

Kapenen is a solid 200 foot player. He's already blocked a bunch of big shots for us in two games. He played PK in Toronto. He'll be fine. Buch and Saad are both plus defensive players. Schenn is who he was in 2019, and Thomas has improved. I think the coaching staff should be doing way more to coax Toropchenko to use his incredible combination of size/speed/reach to become an absolute forechecking and backchecking demon. I feel that he has so much more to give then he has shown. Alexandrov looked incredible last night, if he can continue to bring maybe not that level but just below it consistently he's going to be a gem. Blais hits everything in sight. Neighbors needs to get up to speed in the NHL, but he plays a type of game that should translate well to the defensive side of things (How much of a bummer is it that he's injured right now, these could have been really important games for him to get some NHL reps). We still have a spot or two left to grab some solid, defensively responsible players and put them in our top 6.

We are not sheltering any more poor defensive players then we were in 2019. The biggest difference b/t then and now is we don't have a perennial potential Norris finalist anchoring our blue line. I don't care how many great defensive forwards you have, if you don't have that guy, ceiling for team D is only so high.

Defense for forwards is mostly about effort. Selke candidates are more than that, but difference between bad and fine is mostly about want to.

 

[Majorityof1]

Defense for forwards is mostly about effort. Selke candidates are more than that, but difference between bad and fine is mostly about want to.

I disagree. Effort is definitely a big part of it. But not everyone has the same hockey IQ, hand eye coordination, speed, strength, etc. Hard work can make up for deficits in some areas, but some guys start at an advantage based on their skill set.

 

[Blueston]

I disagree. Effort is definitely a big part of it. But not everyone has the same hockey IQ, hand eye coordination, speed, strength, etc. Hard work can make up for deficits in some areas, but some guys start at an advantage based on their skill set.

Sure, which is how they contend for Selke. I’m not saying good defense is all effort, just that bad defense is almost always lack of effort.

 

[Mike Liut]

Is Vrana a Kyrou clone with less points? A poor man’s Kyrou with a better shot?

 

[Bluesguru]

I know any team in the league could have had him for nothing in the last couple of weeks, but that would have required taking on the full salary and cap hit. We gave up virtually nothing to get him at 50 cents on the dollar for a 21 game audition. If he works out, we have him for another year. If not, we can trade him, waive him, or buy him out. Very low risk but potentially decent reward move. He's been a 25-25-50 guy in this league since we won the Cup, maybe he can get back there in a different environment. I think we see his offense come back, I am more worried about how he fits defensively.

It took almost eight years but we finally got the guy we wanted in the Oshie deal!

Forgot about that. Yeah, Vrana instead of Sanford. Good call!!

Great deal. Essentially Tarasenko’s replacement.

 

[Bluesguru]

Is Vrana a Kyrou clone with less points? A poor man’s Kyrou with a better shot?

He can score 30-40 goals if healthy.

But yeah, similar to Kyrou, though I think Vrana makes better use of his speed in scoring highlight reel goals. Kyrou, for the most part seems to score off that patented wrist shot via set ups, loose pucks, etc.