Ville de Québec Part XI: Être ou ne pas être? Telle est la question!

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MNNumbers

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No, I still disagree and you appear to contradict yourself as well in the mid part after your opening statement.

Something happened between the two versions, because I personally never expected to see Detroit in with Toronto, Montreal and Boston. I think by the time they got around to having to do ver 2.0, the expansion talk had gotten serious enough for them to consider that a couple teams could be added, and that expansion would be in the West. Keep in mind that Devellano said Vegas was happening back in 2006 or 07, and he sound as definite about it as you can get.

They were willing to live with the imbalance since they knew they'd be adding. I don't think luck had a thing to do with it, don't believe in it to be honest.

Thanks Fugu, what you wrote here makes your earlier comment more clear. I thought that you meant they had this 'western expansion' in mind when they began the re-alignment process. I meant to point out that they clearly could not have had western expansion in mind when they did realignment 1.0 and 1.1 (one separated Pitts and Phil, and the next one put them back together) since both of those had 8 teams in each western conference.

My comment about luck (perhaps good fortune would be a better explanation) was a reference to this: What if the PA had ok'd the Realignment 1.1? The we would have something like this (If I remember the details right):
Pacific: Van, Edm, Cal, SJ, LA, Ana, Ari, Col
Central: Winn, Min, Chi, Det, Cmb, StL, Nas, Dal
Eastern: Tor, Ott, Mon, Bos, Buff, TB, Fla
Atlantic: NYR, NYI, NJ, Pitt, Phil, Was, Car
And, that does not show an inclination to a western expansion. So, if you want to put Seattle and Vegas into that, you have to have a vote to redo it.

But, to the League's good fortune (as it turned out), the PA did not sign off on that.

Now, like you say, something happened between there and ver 2.0. And, that is where I am not sure exactly what the discussion was, because there are 2 schools of thought, and each one seems logical to me:
1) Because the PA was complaining about "not equal playoff possibilities", a wildcard option had to be instituted. No matter what you do, you have to introduce that. Once there was a wild card, it seemed incorrect to not play the teams in the other 'WC' division (means Pac&Cent together, for example) an extra game. At that point, Detroit and Columbus objected to the travel from ETZ to PTZ. So, they moved to the eastern half of the alignment. And, the PA signed off on that idea. And, then, Detroit found out that playing in that division is more lucrative to them than any other combination, so they are not going back. This description would have the governors sort of with expansion on the back burner, not being a big part of the decision.
2) Since they had to re-think, someone brought up the Seattle situation, and then expansion became a big part of the decision. Now, you have to make room in the west. Neither Detroit or Columbus wanted to be over in the Central Division alone, so they both moved, Detroit to what became called the Atlantic Division, Columbus to the Metropolitan. Here, expansion became a big deal.

Like I say, both seem plausible. But, what doesn't seem plausible is that when they put out Realignment 1.1 (with Pitts and Phil together), they were thinking of making an alignment with western expansion in mind.

Unless I am missing something, in which case please enlighten me.
 

Laveuglette

Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
Apr 5, 2011
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Merci for posting that and again this is not politics but demographics.

Once you get off the Island of Montreal, people in the rest of the province despise Montreal as much as English Canadians who live outside of Greater Toronto hate Toronto.

20 years ago I knew a gentleman in Montreal named 'Kelly' who was one of the biggest scalpers in the city. I chatted with him one night at Moe's near the Forum and I asked him what hockey team was the toughest ticket. He replied that Boston was his Florida vacation game, Toronto a distant second and then Quebec. He said the Quebec fans have passion but they don't have the money as most of them are farmers.

:laugh:

This is far from being true. It was 100 years ago, but not today. That guy had no clue what he was talking about, this is just a big stereotype, believe me. Quebec is far from being a poor city.

Given that everybody's been able to add onto the discussion I will respond to this one last time.

I should have qualified my comment -- Montreal francophones voted yes in greater numbers (61.2%) than francophones in most other regions of Quebec (source, table 11). Numbers for francophones in the Eastern half of the island were likely higher. As you correctly pointed out, my comment did not take into account anglos and allophones in the eastern half.

But that doesn't change the substance of my post -- had Quebec voted yes, contrary to what Fenway wrote, "Montreal Island" would not have tried to stay in Canada, because a significant part of Montreal Island (francophone neighborhoods in its eastern half) is/was essentially the home of the separatist movement. Partition of the West Island is a slippery slope that I doubt anybody really wanted to get to, but partition of all of Montreal Island would have lead to civil war.

That said, I agree, back to hockey.

Correct. The vote division was mostly linguistic, not regional. Montreal francophones and francophones from the "rest of quebec" voted Yes in roughly the same proportion, which is around 60%. Montreal partition has never been anything serious either, I agree with you.
 

powerstuck

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This was uploaded today.

[MOD]


EDIT : None of the 30 teams in the league currently have travelling fans like Nordiques. None, never ever.
 
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MontrealYul

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Mar 29, 2012
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Great..now it's pretty official that Vegas gets a team and the NHL is waiting from the confirmation in Seattle or Portland.

Quebec totally ignored.

Why?

1) They don't give a ***** about the market, never want to expand there. They seem to have 20 priorities over Qc.
2) Not in their current plans, maybe after Key West gets a team they will consider Qc.
3) Relocation? Carolina is locked in their lease. Florida has a good ownership and Phoenix will never move to the East, and they are locked in a lease too.
4) Something happening behind closed doors. Why the **** is Quebecor so quiet? Why build a $400M arena with zero commitment from the NHL? I don't understand. Labeaume is quiet, Quebecor hasn't said a single word about the NHL..We don't know anything AT ALL about the arena under construction! If no team comes, then it will be $400M down the toilet.

What are they waiting for to announce the name of the building, restaurants and everything related to it? Should have been done a long time ago but nothing. Quebecor has gotten this gift from the city and doesn't do *****?

Big announcement next summer? I wish.

They better have something or else this silence (Quebecor) is very very disappointing. Being ignored by the NHL constantly is incredibly frustrating.
 

mikelvl

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Anybody know how credible Dave Pagnotta is? He thinks QC is a lock. I'd love to hear Bob McKenzie say that.

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/columnists/pagnotta/dp141112.html

At the time, it seemed like Quebec City was the front runner for an expansion franchise, in terms of having an arena ready for next fall and an ownership group itching to get their claws on a team.

Las Vegas and Seattle, in that order, followed.


Nothing has really changed. Those three markets are still on track for getting an NHL franchise.
So, Quebec, be more patienter patient. The wheels are in motion. Like I said, there's a catch. In order to get a team, two new teams have to be added to the West. (Spoiler: It's happening)

Which brings us back to Las Vegas.

Let me simplify things: Las Vegas and Quebec City are locks, according to a well-placed sourced. I can't guarantee this, because, you know, anything can happen, but... (Spoiler: It's happening)
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Great..now it's pretty official that Vegas gets a team and the NHL is waiting from the confirmation in Seattle or Portland.

Quebec totally ignored.

That article by Brooks of the NY Post is about as far from "official" as fiction can get from fact. Are the Maloofs/Foley crazy enough to drop $400M on an Expansion Fee and another roughly $150M in startup for year one? Then every year thereafter about the same? They could well be. And would $400M spin the NHL's head? Absolutely. Highly unusual & frankly bizarre as it might be I could see them accepting that then justify the cash grab with flawed logic thereafter..... That being said, your right, Quebec is being ignored. Deliberately. And why? Because Im certain its a done deal & no ones talking.
 

gstommylee

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That article by Brooks of the NY Post is about as far from "official" as fiction can get from fact. Are the Maloofs/Foley crazy enough to drop $400M on an Expansion Fee and another roughly $150M in startup for year one? Then every year thereafter about the same? They could well be. And would $400M spin the NHL's head? Absolutely. Highly unusual & frankly bizarre as it might be I could see them accepting that then justify the cash grab with flawed logic thereafter..... That being said, your right, Quebec is being ignored. Deliberately. And why? Because Im certain its a done deal & no ones talking.

Done deal as in Relocation or done deal as in expansion?
 

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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Be patient QC guys. Yes Vegas and Seattle are grabbing the headlines but there's still some work to be done, especially Seattle.

Though it seems QC is third in preference from many reputable sources (McKenzie, Shoalts) over the past year. Again there's no guarantee they're only expanding by 2. Daly said they would look to the west first before going to the east, doesn't mean last.
 

MontrealYul

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That article by Brooks of the NY Post is about as far from "official" as fiction can get from fact. Are the Maloofs/Foley crazy enough to drop $400M on an Expansion Fee and another roughly $150M in startup for year one? Then every year thereafter about the same? They could well be. And would $400M spin the NHL's head? Absolutely. Highly unusual & frankly bizarre as it might be I could see them accepting that then justify the cash grab with flawed logic thereafter..... That being said, your right, Quebec is being ignored. Deliberately. And why? Because Im certain its a done deal & no ones talking.

What I find weird is mostly that the Nordiques are not being mentioned by BOTH Quebecor and the NHL. And, like I said, Labeaume is too quiet. Maybe I'm going crazy but..there is something wrong with all this quietness.
 

Killion

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Done deal as in Relocation or done deal as in expansion?

Not really sure tommy. Thats the question, and when.... Vegas, four hundred million, unbalanced conferences, odd numbers etc? Irrelevant. QC's a lock.
 

Mightygoose

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What I find weird is mostly that the Nordiques are not being mentioned by BOTH Quebecor and the NHL. And, like I said, Labeaume is too quiet. Maybe I'm going crazy but..there is something wrong with all this quietness.

Winnipeg was deathly quiet too. Once their time came, news broke and it was done in a couple weeks...a shorter timeframe than what the league would have liked.
 

gstommylee

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Not really sure tommy. Thats the question, and when.... Vegas, four hundred million, unbalanced conferences, odd numbers etc? Irrelevant. QC's a lock.

I think there is a lot more going on in regards to possible relocation of team(s) then the NHL is letting us know. If Seattle, vegas and QC are all locks, someone's getting one via relocation.
 

No Fun Shogun

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Months back, I had a pet theory that the NHL would eventually announce a dual expansion into Vegas and Quebec City to soften the public outrage about the former with a wave of jubilation about the latter.

Seeing the reaction to the report is making that PR idea bounce around in my head some more...
 

gstommylee

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Months back, I had a pet theory that the NHL would eventually announce a dual expansion into Vegas and Quebec City to soften the public outrage about the former with a wave of jubilation about the latter.

Seeing the reaction to the report is making that PR idea bounce around in my head some more...

Only way i see vegas/quebec city if its a guarantee that Seattle isn't going to be building that new arena in a near future.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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What I find weird is mostly that the Nordiques are not being mentioned by BOTH Quebecor and the NHL. And, like I said, Labeaume is too quiet. Maybe I'm going crazy but..there is something wrong with all this quietness.

Winnipeg was deathly quiet too. Once their time came, news broke and it was done in a couple weeks...a shorter timeframe than what the league would have liked.

It was indeed. I was certain theyd be getting the Coyotes, couldnt believe the rumors that no, Atlanta was about to be lost for the 2nd time, that the league could let that happen, yet happen it did and completely off-radar.

I think there is a lot more going on in regards to possible relocation of team(s) then the NHL is letting us know. If Seattle, vegas and QC are all locks, someone's getting one via relocation.

I dont think Seattle & Vegas are "locks" tommy. I think the NHL is posturing with these comments about Vegas and its Larry Brooks of the NY Post doing a whole bunch of speculating.... and no mention of QC huh? Makes no sense unless theres something already gone down in Quebec. An agreement in principal.
 

gstommylee

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It was indeed. I was certain theyd be getting the Coyotes, couldnt believe the rumors that no, Atlanta was about to be lost for the 2nd time, that the league could let that happen, yet happen it did and completely off-radar.



I dont think Seattle & Vegas are "locks" tommy. I think the NHL is posturing with these comments about Vegas and its Larry Brooks of the NY Post doing a whole bunch of speculating.... and no mention of QC huh? Makes no sense unless theres something already gone down in Quebec. An agreement in principal.

I don't buy that Quebec is a lock for expansion. A team in general yes but not expansion unless Sodo arena goes south and Hansen walks away.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I don't buy that Quebec is a lock for expansion. A team in general yes but not expansion unless Sodo arena goes south and Hansen walks away.

Then we can agree to disagree tommy. Im certain of it. Expansion or Relocation, makes no difference; Quebec City is Front.Of.The.Line. Its not a matter of Seattle first of all landing an NBA Team before Hansen can then proceed with the arena then maybe someone buys an NHL Expansion Franchise & were looking at what, 3-4yrs?. Its irrelevant to Quebec, to the NHL what happens in Seattle as it relates to Quebec City. Entirely different timelines. Seattle is just one huge cluster**** of obstacles, Quebec a straight shot. This nonsense, "oh, its either QC or Seattle/Portland/Vegas", like one or the other or all American, total rubbish. Quebec vs Seattle. Quebec vs Vegas. There is no "versus". Done deal. The only "versus" is what people seem to wanna latch on to & speculate about.
 

gstommylee

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Then we can agree to disagree tommy. Im certain of it. Expansion or Relocation, makes no difference; Quebec City is Front.Of.The.Line. Its not a matter of Seattle first of all landing an NBA Team before Hansen can then proceed with the arena then maybe someone buys an NHL Expansion Franchise & were looking at what, 3-4yrs?. Its irrelevant to Quebec, to the NHL what happens in Seattle as it relates to Quebec City. Entirely different timelines. Seattle is just one huge cluster**** of obstacles, Quebec a straight shot. This nonsense, "oh, its either QC or Seattle/Portland/Vegas", like one or the other or all American, total rubbish. Quebec vs Seattle. Quebec vs Vegas. There is no "versus". Done deal. The only "versus" is what people seem to wanna latch on to & speculate about.

Here's how i see the situation the league is thinking of expanding then there are issues with 2 teams (coyotes and panthers). The one problem i have with Quebec city getting a team via expansion is what do to do with teams that have to be relocated.

If its Vegas and quebec city getting teams via expansion and Portland getting coyotes or the panthers, who is going to be the other city that gets a relocated team. And this under the assumption that Seattle's arena doesn't get built aka no NBA team and no NHL first plan. This is why you don't expand when you have trouble teams that may need to be relocate.
 

powerstuck

Nordiques Hopes Lies
Jan 13, 2012
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Great..now it's pretty official that Vegas gets a team and the NHL is waiting from the confirmation in Seattle or Portland.

Quebec totally ignored.

Why?

1) They don't give a ***** about the market, never want to expand there. They seem to have 20 priorities over Qc.
2) Not in their current plans, maybe after Key West gets a team they will consider Qc.
3) Relocation? Carolina is locked in their lease. Florida has a good ownership and Phoenix will never move to the East, and they are locked in a lease too.
4) Something happening behind closed doors. Why the **** is Quebecor so quiet? Why build a $400M arena with zero commitment from the NHL? I don't understand. Labeaume is quiet, Quebecor hasn't said a single word about the NHL..We don't know anything AT ALL about the arena under construction! If no team comes, then it will be $400M down the toilet.

What are they waiting for to announce the name of the building, restaurants and everything related to it? Should have been done a long time ago but nothing. Quebecor has gotten this gift from the city and doesn't do *****?

Big announcement next summer? I wish.

They better have something or else this silence (Quebecor) is very very disappointing. Being ignored by the NHL constantly is incredibly frustrating.

A side of me is with you on all of this. Frustrated, wants to cry out loud.

The other side of me looks at the bolded, looks at Winnipeg Jets story, looks back at the bolded, crosses fingers and just awaits something magical to happen. ;)
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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This is why you don't expand when you have trouble teams that may need to be relocate.

Common sense would say not but as this is the NHL, common sense doesnt always apply tommy. Could be any number of possibilities, permutations. Phoenix cant or likely wont move for 3.5yrs IF at all, IF Glendale is still solvent etc etc etc... and Florida, well who knows? A year before the elections, a consultants report on even allowing them to break the lease, seemingly committed owners who understand the empty seat situation & are willing to bear the brunt, just on & on. We dont know that EITHER teams moving. Quebec is open for business next year. Why should they wait for things to get sorted in Arizona or Florida? Another 2-3yrs thereafter? That Az/Fl are in trouble, thats not going to stop the NHL from Expanding. The fee's received touted as help for the Panthers & Coyotes. On & on. They can spin it a million ways. And if those clubs do need to move in 3-5yrs, Seattle or Portland, Hamilton, Milwaukee or Hartford, Tulsa or God only knows.
 

brewski420

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Sep 29, 2009
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Then we can agree to disagree tommy. Im certain of it. Expansion or Relocation, makes no difference; Quebec City is Front.Of.The.Line. Its not a matter of Seattle first of all landing an NBA Team before Hansen can then proceed with the arena then maybe someone buys an NHL Expansion Franchise & were looking at what, 3-4yrs?. Its irrelevant to Quebec, to the NHL what happens in Seattle as it relates to Quebec City. Entirely different timelines. Seattle is just one huge cluster**** of obstacles, Quebec a straight shot. This nonsense, "oh, its either QC or Seattle/Portland/Vegas", like one or the other or all American, total rubbish. Quebec vs Seattle. Quebec vs Vegas. There is no "versus". Done deal. The only "versus" is what people seem to wanna latch on to & speculate about.

I have to agree with this assessment. Quebec just makes too much sense and the timing is right. It is also very quiet which leads me to believe Quebec will be sooner rather than later one way or another. Seattle will happen someday but not soon IMO. To many obstacles right now (although they could clear in the next few months if all goes right).
 

gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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I have to agree with this assessment. Quebec just makes too much sense and the timing is right. It is also very quiet which leads me to believe Quebec will be sooner rather than later one way or another. Seattle will happen someday but not soon IMO. To many obstacles right now (although they could clear in the next few months if all goes right).

Then they need to announce expansion Quebec city and Vegas and get it over with.
 

brewski420

Registered User
Sep 29, 2009
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Then they need to announce expansion Quebec city and Vegas and get it over with.

Yes. I agree and Hansen needs to see that maybe he needs the NHL more than he thought in Seattle because I just don't see the NBA anytime soon. I think Florida still may be a possibility for Quebec thus the silence.
 

gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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Yes. I agree and Hansen needs to see that maybe he needs the NHL more than he thought in Seattle because I just don't see the NBA anytime soon. I think Florida still may be a possibility for Quebec thus the silence.

That's the thing in regards to Quebec. If its already a done deal that Quebec will get the next relocated eastern conference team, i don't see how they are a lock for expansion.
 

Fugu

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What I find weird is mostly that the Nordiques are not being mentioned by BOTH Quebecor and the NHL. And, like I said, Labeaume is too quiet. Maybe I'm going crazy but..there is something wrong with all this quietness.

Not just directed at you, but when was the last time Peladeau or anyone from Quebecor mentioned the NHL, meeting the league, etc.?

Winnipeg was deathly quiet too. Once their time came, news broke and it was done in a couple weeks...a shorter timeframe than what the league would have liked.

Winnipeg was deathly quiet on the public front, but there was a ton of chatter, oft dismissed. Heck, even the Thrashers name was floated as the team likely headed there and that was poo-pooed by many. I honestly was not surprised in the least when that came together. This is quieter.
 
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