Confirmed with Link: [VAN/VGK] Canucks acquire F Brendan Leipsic for D Philip Holm

[y2kcanucks]

I've seen them. They're not convincing arguments, they invite refutation, but there's a difference between not basing an argument on logic and facts, on the one hand, and attempting to do so and offering an unsuccessful analysis.

I don't care whether you care about my post. You should care about falling into hyperbole and constructing straw men arguments while criticizing the other side as illogical.

If an argument can be refuted then clearly it is not a good argument. The problem is when those arguments are refuted and those people ignore it and continue to act like their point of view is the right one.

There’s no hyperbole. Jim Benning is the worst GM in Canucks history, and the worst GM in the nhl.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I'm no Benning supporter, quite the opposite actually, but how is his drafting record not an argument that supports Benning by logic and facts? He's clearly been better than Gillis so far. Boeser is better than any Gillis pick (just edges out Horvat IMO, but he's younger and was a later draft pick so it's more impressive). Tryamkin was a great pick (just speaking on talent). And then at least one of Pettersson, Gaudette, Demko, Lind, etc. is likely to pan out. That's more than Gillis could say for his tenure drafting here.

I realize Gillis had less high draft picks than Benning, but he still flubbed the Hodgson pick which was high, and all of his 1st round picks outside of Horvat have pretty much busted (Shinkaruk, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, etc.).

Just because Benning’s drafting track record here (with Gillis’s scouts) has been better doesn’t mean that’s a valid argument that supports Benning being a good GM. It means one is not looking at the entire picture, and it also means one is only comparing the current GM to the previous one who was fired.

Also, when you screw up a 5th and 6th overall pick I have a hard time accepting the argument that Benning is good at drafting.

 

[y2kcanucks]

by all means go ahead and claim you win an argument against me that i was not even involved in. that's more or less the point i was making anyway.

Actually you did get yourself involved in it.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Just because Benning’s drafting track record here (with Gillis’s scouts) has been better doesn’t mean that’s a valid argument that supports Benning being a good GM. It means one is not looking at the entire picture, and it also means one is only comparing the current GM to the previous one who was fired.

Also, when you screw up a 5th and 6th overall pick I have a hard time accepting the argument that Benning is good at drafting.

As for the first point - that's just where the bar was set for our expectations as fans based on experience following the team.

Yes, he botched the Virtanen and Juolevi picks. They were bad picks at the time and definitely don't look any better now. It will be interesting to see how his drafting looks cumulatively though. If you factor in all of his picks, and how many prospects develop into great NHL players, then those 5th and 6th overall picks might be excusable since he can make up for them with later round picks. At the end of the day, we just want to develop great NHL players, it's the end that we care about, not the means.

Just to give an example here,
If Pettersson turns into an elite talent (90+ points for his prime), and Juolevi is a serviceable but not special top 4 dman, don't you think Benning did alright in those drafts cumulatively speaking? Let's say the alternative (based on consensus) is Cody Glass or Vilardi (what people wanted on here) peaked at ~60 points and Tkachuk peaking at ~70 points. I'd take the elite talent at 90+ points and average top 4 dman, personally. Just playing with a hypothetical to illustrate the point though.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Actually you did get yourself involved in it.

the word "actually" adds nothing to that sentence. also i was not involved in your argument nor was i even arguing. i commented on something you said in a post. i don't know or care what you were arguing about. i just thought it funny that you would feel qualified to rate the quality of arguments made by people who disagree with so i made a gently satirical comment.

 

[Krnuckfan]

The trade deadline looking more and more like a disaster with every passing day.

Leipsic looks like a complete plug, skates fast but pushed off the play so easily and accomplishes nothing. Pointless in his last 6 games and a -7 during that time playing brutal defence.

Funny how he has a fluky night scoring points against two of the worst defensive teams in the league and people were delusional enough to believe that benning actually acquired something of value

 

[xtra]

As for the first point - that's just where the bar was set for our expectations as fans based on experience following the team.

Yes, he botched the Virtanen and Juolevi picks. They were bad picks at the time and definitely don't look any better now. It will be interesting to see how his drafting looks cumulatively though. If you factor in all of his picks, and how many prospects develop into great NHL players, then those 5th and 6th overall picks might be excusable since he can make up for them with later round picks. At the end of the day, we just want to develop great NHL players, it's the end that we care about, not the means.

Just to give an example here,
If Pettersson turns into an elite talent (90+ points for his prime), and Juolevi is a serviceable but not special top 4 dman, don't you think Benning did alright in those drafts cumulatively speaking? Let's say the alternative (based on consensus) is Cody Glass or Vilardi (what people wanted on here) peaked at ~60 points and Tkachuk peaking at ~70 points. I'd take the elite talent at 90+ points and average top 4 dman, personally. Just playing with a hypothetical to illustrate the point though.

Or he could have been smart and taken the. Elite player (Pettersson) and what was the consensus 5th player in the draft in tkachuk

Or let’s include Virtanen.

What do you prefer:
90 point player - petersson
Top 4 average dman - Julioev
4th line grinder - Virtanen

Or
Glass/ Vilrdi at 60 points ( which is low probably closer to 70)
Tkachuk ~ 70 points
Ehlers/Nylander ~ 75 points

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Where does Virtanen go in a redraft?
Where does Juolevi go in a redraft?

*Useless/uninformed opinion* - JV about 25th, Juolevi somewhere 15-20.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Or he could have been smart and taken the. Elite player (Pettersson) and what was the consensus 5th player in the draft in tkachuk

Or let’s include Virtanen.

What do you prefer:
90 point player - petersson
Top 4 average dman - Julioev
4th line grinder - Virtanen

Or
Glass/ Vilrdi at 60 points ( which is low probably closer to 70)
Tkachuk ~ 70 points
Ehlers/Nylander ~ 75 points

Yeah, he could have drafted better. Not disputing that he botched those two high picks in Virtanen and Juolevi.

That said, all things considered, his drafting could very well look pretty great. Obviously we won't know for a few seasons. His misfires might be easier to stomach if a few of Gaudette, Demko, Lind, Gadjovich, etc. pan out. My point was that, if you take ALL of his draft picks cumulatively, his drafting could be seen as a strength/positive. Once again, that will take time to evaluate. But it's currently looking better than Gillis at the bare minimum. This reverts back to Y2k stating that there is no argument for supporting Benning based on logic, which there is.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The trade deadline looking more and more like a disaster with every passing day.

Leipsic looks like a complete plug, skates fast but pushed off the play so easily and accomplishes nothing. Pointless in his last 6 games and a -7 during that time playing brutal defence.

Funny how he has a fluky night scoring points against two of the worst defensive teams in the league and people were delusional enough to believe that benning actually acquired something of value

this is a such a toxic hot take of a post. just wallowing in hatred for things canuck and a canuck player and stretching as hard as possible for negativity and then ending with an obnoxious celebratory triumphant smiley for what the op hopes is bad news for our team. i can understand tank jokes, but this is dancing on the not yet dug grave of a half decent prospect we got for nothing who is only 10 games in as a canuck.

it is more or less the poster child for what a perverse and awful and embarrassing thing benning hatred is. how anyone could consider this a post by a canuck supporter is beyond me.

 

[Canucks1096]

Yeah, he could have drafted better. Not disputing that he botched those two high picks in Virtanen and Juolevi.

That said, all things considered, his drafting could very well look pretty great. Obviously we won't know for a few seasons. His misfires might be easier to stomach if a few of Gaudette, Demko, Lind, Gadjovich, etc. pan out. My point was that, if you take ALL of his draft picks cumulatively, his drafting could be seen as a strength/positive. Once again, that will take time to evaluate. But it's currently looking better than Gillis at the bare minimum. This reverts back to Y2k stating that there is no argument for supporting Benning based on logic, which there is.

Better than Gillis is not saying much. From 2008 to 2013 Gillis had 37 picks including including six 1st and four second. As of today there are only four regular nhl players Gillis drafted that are in the nhl right now.

Horvat 1B/2nd lin3 center
Hutton bottom pairing D
Gaunce 4th line player
Connauton bottom pairing D

Gillis left Benning with almost Nothing. If Gillis was better at drafting. The rebuild might be a little faster.

 

[Canucks1096]

*Useless/uninformed opinion* - JV about 25th, Juolevi somewhere 15-20.

Button ranked Virtanen as a 2nd round pick

 

[pgj98m3]

Better than Gillis is not saying much. From 2008 to 2013 Gillis had 37 picks including including six 1st and four second. As of today there are only four regular nhl players Gillis drafted that are in the nhl right now.

Horvat 1B/2nd lin3 center
Hutton bottom pairing D
Gaunce 4th line player
Connauton bottom pairing D

Gillis left Benning with almost Nothing. If Gillis was better at drafting. The rebuild might be a little faster.

That may have been true in Lindenning's first season but since the rebuild still hasn't started your point is moot.

 

[VanJack]

The trade deadline looking more and more like a disaster with every passing day.

Leipsic looks like a complete plug, skates fast but pushed off the play so easily and accomplishes nothing. Pointless in his last 6 games and a -7 during that time playing brutal defence.

Funny how he has a fluky night scoring points against two of the worst defensive teams in the league and people were delusional enough to believe that benning actually acquired something of value

Leipsic is a bit of 'project', no doubt about it....you can see why he's had trouble staying in the lineup in his three previous organizations, the Preds, Leafs and Knights.....shows flashes of skill and speed, but it's all about consistency with him. But at least the guy's been a legit ppg player at the AHL level.

It's really not much difference than the two other Portland Winterhawks who washed up on the Canucks shore-Pouliot and Baertschi......you could see flashes and moments of illumination, which made them high picks in the first place....but then plagued by confidence and brain-cramps. 'Tough love' turned Baertshi into a reasonably productive player, and although Pouliot continues to infuriate at times, there still seems to be something there.....hoping that Green can make players about both Pouliot and Leipsic.....it's a gamble, but not really an expensive one, given they were acquired at bargain-bin rates.

 

[Canucks1096]

That may have been true in Lindenning's first season but since the rebuild still hasn't started your point is moot.

If it didn't start yet then JB would of traded Hansen Burrows and Vanek the last few seasons. People might not think it's true rebuild becuase usually you are selling more. But the Canucks don't have a lot to sell so it doesn't seem like a rebuild.

 

[pgj98m3]

If it didn't start yet then JB would of traded Hansen Burrows and Vanek the last few seasons. People might not think it's true rebuild becuase usually you are selling more. But the Canucks don't have a lot to sell so it doesn't seem like a rebuild.

This song has already been sung many times here....
There is more to a rebuild then trading away a few aging assets. Lindenning have repeatedly signed or extended players with the express purpose of "winning now".

 

[Krnuckfan]

this is a such a toxic hot take of a post. just wallowing in hatred for things canuck and a canuck player and stretching as hard as possible for negativity and then ending with an obnoxious celebratory triumphant smiley for what the op hopes is bad news for our team. i can understand tank jokes, but this is dancing on the not yet dug grave of a half decent prospect we got for nothing who is only 10 games in as a canuck.

it is more or less the poster child for what a perverse and awful and embarrassing thing benning hatred is. how anyone could consider this a post by a canuck supporter is beyond me.

Shows what kind of trash gm Benning is when his supporters still believe a 23 year old given up on by two previous teams is still considered a legitimate prospect.

I mean it's an improvement over the likes of Emerson etem I guess...

 

[Canucks1096]

This song has already been sung many times here....
There is more to a rebuild then trading away a few aging assets. Lindenning have repeatedly signed or extended players with the express purpose of "winning now".

You still need to have a full roster. Any rebuild you don't have 20 young players under 24 playing. Last season the player he signed were stop gap players like MDZ, Vanek and Gagner. Those Veterans they weren't taking ice time from any prospects that was ready. Those players were signed because a lot of prospects are not ready.

So tell me if those 3 players weren't signed. Which prospects would be replacing those 3?

I think most fans don't quite understand what a rebuild is.

 

[pgj98m3]

You still need to have a full roster. Any rebuild you don't have 20 young players under 24 playing. Last season the player he signed were stop gap players like MDZ, Vanek and Gagner. Those Veterans they weren't taking ice time from any prospects that was ready. Those players were signed because a lot of prospects are not ready.

So tell me if those 3 players weren't signed. Which prospects would be replacing those 3?

I think most fans don't quite understand what a rebuild is.

Why do MDZ or Gagner need any term?
Do you think we won't notice Eriksson, Gudbranson,Sutter, and for completeness sake Dorsett.

 

[VancouverJagger]

I love how everyone in here expects our GM to have taken the best player possible in every draft EVERY time he picked. If he didn't he's lambasted for effing up........Yessssss..........totally feasible - cus all other GM's hit on EVERY SINGLE one of their picks all the time too.......

 

[CanaFan]

I love how everyone in here expects our GM to have taken the best player possible in every draft EVERY time he picked. If he didn't he's lambasted for effing up........Yessssss..........totally feasible - cus all other GM's hit on EVERY SINGLE one of their picks all the time too.......

When you’re picking 6 and 5 ... ya, that’s the expectation. Missing on a potential elite player at 6 isn’t made up for by finding a possible 3C in the 5th round.

Especially when that GM is terrible at literally every other aspect of his job.

 

[pgj98m3]

I love how everyone in here expects our GM to have taken the best player possible in every draft EVERY time he picked. If he didn't he's lambasted for effing up........Yessssss..........totally feasible - cus all other GM's hit on EVERY SINGLE one of their picks all the time too.......

Who's claiming this?
Sad that you are resorting to straw men rather than offering some reason we should support a GM that's led this team to the basement.

 

[CanaFan]

You still need to have a full roster. Any rebuild you don't have 20 young players under 24 playing. Last season the player he signed were stop gap players like MDZ, Vanek and Gagner. Those Veterans they weren't taking ice time from any prospects that was ready. Those players were signed because a lot of prospects are not ready.

So tell me if those 3 players weren't signed. Which prospects would be replacing those 3?

I think most fans don't quite understand what a rebuild is.

Possibly ones acquired for assets like Kesler, Garrison, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Miller, Gudbranson, Hansen, Vanek, etc. If those assets were better than the age-gap crap that Benning chose to target or trades he didn’t or couldn’t manage to make.

There’s also more to rebuilding than trying to make playoffs and drafting high when you fail.

 

[arttk]

I love how everyone in here expects our GM to have taken the best player possible in every draft EVERY time he picked. If he didn't he's lambasted for effing up........Yessssss..........totally feasible - cus all other GM's hit on EVERY SINGLE one of their picks all the time too.......

When you go off the board while drafting 5th and 6th overall, yeah you expect the GM to hit those picks.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I love how everyone in here expects our GM to have taken the best player possible in every draft EVERY time he picked. If he didn't he's lambasted for effing up........Yessssss..........totally feasible - cus all other GM's hit on EVERY SINGLE one of their picks all the time too.......

Okay. What the hell, I'll give this a shot.

Boeser, Pettersson and Gaudette. The last couple of pages, the crux of your argument (besides the LOL HATERZZZ idiocy) is that Benning's a good gm because he drafted those three guys. Uh-huh. Gaudette and Pettersson are tracking extremely well, yes. I'm glad they're in the system. But once again, neither have done shit in the NHL and as much as you clearly don't want to believe, there are NO guarantees they'll make it. Boeser absolutely has. He's the best player on the team, easily. That means so far after four years on the job, Benning's managed to add one genuine impact player to the team. One. Out of all the FA signings, pro scouting fails and with the highest draft picks the team's had since the Sedins, Boeser is the sum total of actually good players Benning's managed to come across in four damn years (also maybe Stecher before his spirit and confidence were hopelessly crushed). Maybe have a look around the league at other teams' prospect pools and tell me how many have players tearing up lesser leagues before you anoint Benning as our saviour. And also maybe consider that this season the Canucks added the most promising rookie since certainly the Sedins. Boeser is certainly going to be a Calder nominee, and rightfully so. And....how did that affect the team's record? Say Pettersson and Gaudette join the club next year...do you think they'll both be Calder nominees themselves, and seeing as how the terrible defense and goaltending is all signed for another year, why would the team get much better?

Better question: do you think Pettersson and/or Gaudette will be better than McDavid? Or Draisaitl? Or Hall or Eberle or etc etc etc. Last time I checked nobody around here was calling Chiarelli or Lowe a good gm. So tell me why the Canucks will be better than the Oilers in two or three years.

Oh, and seeing as how you take care to ignore pro scouting, cap management, the fact our medical staff is a barrel of misery and clown farts, and...oh yeah, whether or not the team wins or loses any games, I can only assume you're a pretty tolerant guy. So it's surprising you're so hostile around here.