[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

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vancityluongo

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I would move Miller right now for a guaranteed top9 pick, similar to the Schneider deal, even after his career year. This high is set to be short lived and I suspect that such a pick would help the franchise more in the long-run (though no guarantee, I agree). Re-purposing Miller to a younger dman does not, IMO, provide for the same potential impact.

There's a possibility that you either get a better young defenseman (thereby winning the trade from an individual value sense, *and* aligning better with your core - a "synergy" of sorts), an equal value defenseman (but still creating value due to the synergy) or a slightly worse individual player, but still making up for the difference through that synergy.

In my previous analogy, the first two scenarios are trading the $2,500 bike for the $5,000 car and selling the car for $6,000 and/or buying the new bike for $2,000.

If you think re-purposing Miller to a younger forward is more likely to meet the mark from the individual player perspective, I'm all for that too. Maybe instead of Dunn you target Thomas from St. Louis. The point being that even if the player acquired doesn't have the same impact Miller has today, the cohesiveness with the core and future value (at a time when it will be most required) will generate further net value. You go from winning one trade that didn't make sense directionally to winning two, and aligning with your strategy.

VL, you may be inferring too much about the team based upon recent play, and that to the positive. This is a 1 year bubble team with a host of factors breaking right. Their P% belies their shooting differentials and they were falling before C19 hit.

I don't think they're anywhere close to contending, which is why I'd suggest re-purposing Miller. I just don't see the need to consider this a "bad" trade - 3 more "bad" trades like this and we'd accidentally become contenders.

As well, switching directions and re-calculating many times is how you end up here: in purgatory. A GM needs to instead understand value propositions within an overarching mode. One mode, not multiple. For example, Doug Wilson trading Toskola for a 1st, then trading that 1st (Eller)++ for the Couture pick in 2007. All amidst a 51 win season, with the intention to continually competing for the cup. His direction never changed. He could have trade Toskola for a roster piece to improve his current team. He did not because he knew that the value in trading for futures would provide for a larger future impact and the elongation of SJ's competitive window.

If we're reducing it to one singular overarching mode, every GM in the league should have the mandate to contend for a Cup and maintain a competitive window for their entire tenure, which ideally spans decades. Guessing we'd both agree that is not a practical strategy at all as it is overly ambitious.

Your example is actually very demonstrative of what I'm getting at. By the same metrics used to assess the Miller trade, it was wrong for Wilson to acquire a 1st round pick for Toskala, vs a roster piece to help push them over the top for a Cup. As you said, it made no directional sense, but was simply a terrific value proposition for a mediocre goalie.

But if I was Wilson, from there, I'd have flipped that 1st for the player to get them over the top. Maybe that pick could've landed them Hossa in the offseason, and with him on SJ vs Pittsburgh the Sharks get past Detroit and take the Cup in 2008.

Of course, maybe a Hossa-like player was never available and the highest value proposition was making the pick, even given the limited likelihood of success. There is obviously a portion attributable to luck that vs an average 1st round pick (which was already surplus value for Toskala) they added way more surplus value by nailing the pick and landing Couture, who added value for years, not just as a one off like Hossa (a best case scenario) would have done.

Back to Toskala vs Miller - the only difference is that the "perceived" value of Toskala at the time was probably lower than a first, so the perception was that Wilson made out well (which he did). Miller was also "perceived" to be worth less than a 1st and a 3rd, but Tampa didn't make out so well, as Miller didn't flop like Toskala did in Toronto, and quite the opposite, is worth much more now.
 

I am toxic

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Last season Markstrom played well in every month except November. This season, with the injury and the personal absence taking him out for three weeks, plus a soft couple of weeks in December, he didn't really make substantially greater difference on the whole.

The Canucks were 25th in goals scored last season, 8th this season. That was the difference. Two players were quite obviously responsible for a substantial amount of that improvement.

From CanucksArmy:

Before we dig any deeper into advanced stats, let’s check out Jacob Markstrom’s surface stat line AFTER he reinvented himself and his game in December—on the heels of an absolutely dreadful November.

This most recent season, in the 8 games after Marky was injured and before the season was suspended, the Canucks won one regulation game, one OT, one SO - and lost FIVE in regulation. With Miller and Hughes playing.

Marky was the difference. Eye-test and numbers.
 

Hit the post

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The team scored more goals in 69 games this season than in 82 games last season; they were on pace to score 271 goals compared to 225 last season. There's the difference.
Having a guy like Hughes (one of the two key additions you mentioned earlier) being able to move the puck was huge (in a Peeee-air McGuire chant lol). Better than one ex-Canuck defenseman good at moving the puck - to the opposition player.:laugh:
 

I am toxic

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The team scored more goals in 69 games this season than in 82 games last season; they were on pace to score 271 goals compared to 225 last season. There's the difference.

22 points in the standings is the difference.

These numbers would suggest that Markstrom has stolen 11 wins for the Canucks this season compared to an average NHL goaltender, for a total of 22 points. Take away those points, and the Canucks wouldn’t be in the playoffs; they’d be tied with the Los Angeles Kings for last in the Western Conference
 

Bleach Clean

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Last season Markstrom played well in every month except November. This season, with the injury and the personal absence taking him out for three weeks, plus a soft couple of weeks in December, he didn't really make substantially greater difference on the whole.

The Canucks were 25th in goals scored last season, 8th this season. That was the difference. Two players were quite obviously responsible for a substantial amount of that improvement.

Well said.

Re the bolded, we saw when Marky went down that even Miller is unable to drag this team into playoffs.

Marky is pretty much why this team went from 22 to 15.


Markstrom held them up, and without him they were sinking, but I think it's a host of factors leading to the 7 rank shift: Top4 PP, 11 players on career years, Miller, Hughes, Myers, high conversion rates, bad underlying numbers, luck on injuries etc... A _lot_ of elements had to break right to get them to the bubble.

Conversely, each element that regresses to the mean or goes in the opposite direction, helps to pull the team down. The big one would be how conversion rates follow bad shot differentials over the larger sample (next year).
 
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Blue and Green

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22 points in the standings is the difference.

First, that article is massively off the mark with its 11 wins estimation which is based on a wildly erroneous idea that 2 goals above replacement equates to a win. In fact, it's approximately 5.7 goals above replacement per win.

Second, the point in question is what made the team jump so much from last season to this season, not who is the team MVP. Markstrom was the team MVP last season, too; he is the relative constant in the equation.

League-wide scoring was virtually identical this season compared to last season. Here was the pace the team was on this season, compared to the totals from last season:

Goals for: 271 vs 225
Goals against: 258 vs 254

They jumped up in the standings this season because they were scoring 20% more goals than last season.
 

Bleach Clean

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First, that article is massively off the mark with its 11 wins estimation which is based on a wildly erroneous idea that 2 goals above replacement equates to a win. In fact, it's approximately 5.7 goals above replacement per win.

Second, the point in question is what made the team jump so much from last season to this season, not who is the team MVP. Markstrom was the team MVP last season, too; he is the relative constant in the equation.

League-wide scoring was virtually identical this season compared to last season. Here was the pace the team was on this season, compared to the totals from last season:

Goals for: 271 vs 225
Goals against: 258 vs 254

They jumped up in the standings this season because they were scoring 20% more goals than last season.


Scoring 20% more is not fully encapsulated by the additions of Miller and Hughes.

Also, I'm curious as to your source regarding 5.7 GAR per 1 win. Please link.
 

Blue and Green

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Scoring 20% more is not fully encapsulated by the additions of Miller and Hughes.

Also, I'm curious as to your source regarding 5.7 GAR per 1 win. Please link.

I never claimed it was "fully encapsulated" by Miller and Hughes. But I would claim that probably at least half of it was.

Here are tables from Hockey-Graphs.com showing goals per win and how uncommon it is for a player to be worth 6-7 wins above replacement level in a season, hence the "Unicorn" moniker.

screen-shot-2019-01-18-at-1.47.47-am.png



OvVNraN.png
 

Bleach Clean

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I never claimed it was "fully encapsulated" by Miller and Hughes. But I would claim that probably at least half of it was.

Here are tables from Hockey-Graphs.com showing goals per win and how uncommon it is for a player to be worth 6-7 wins above replacement level in a season, hence the "Unicorn" moniker.

screen-shot-2019-01-18-at-1.47.47-am.png



OvVNraN.png

Markstrom played very well last season, too. They went from 22 to 15 because of the additions of Miller and Hughes.


A little confusing because you've gone from saying Miller and Hughes attribute to the team's rank difference, 22 to 15. To now saying they contributed to roughly half of the jump?

Thanks for the charts. My understanding is that GAR cannot be transitioned to WAR unless the same data supports underpins both metrics. For instance, Spriging's model differs from Perry's model, and so on... But for the sake of argument, let's say that half of the win difference (roughly 8 wins) from last year and this year are due to Miller and Hughes alone. This equates to 2 wins per player which means that each player is a "Good Player" per their WAR rating. I don't find that opinion outlandish based upon that metric.

Would you then say that everything else that broke right for them is fully realized in the remaining 4 wins?
 
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Blue and Green

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Thanks for the charts. My understanding is that GAR cannot be transitioned to WAR unless the same data supports underpins both metrics. For instance, Spriging's model differs from Perry's model, and so on... But for the sake of argument, let's say that half of the win difference (roughly 8 wins) from last year and this year are due to Miller and Hughes alone. This equates to 2 wins per player which means that each player is a "Good Player" per their WAR rating. I don't find that opinion outlandish based upon that metric.

Would you then say that everything else that broke right for them is fully realized in the remaining 4 wins?

There would be some modest variance among models and also definitions of replacement players, for sure.

For the Hockey Graphs model, exactly 2 WAR is a 90th-percentile contribution based on ~830 players per season. That would probably be in the ballpark for those two players. If anything, I'd guess that the majority of player rating algorithms would rank Miller above the 90th percentile for this season.

I've said all that I care to say for the time being on Miller so I'm signing out of this thread.
 
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Bleach Clean

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There's a possibility that you either get a better young defenseman (thereby winning the trade from an individual value sense, *and* aligning better with your core - a "synergy" of sorts), an equal value defenseman (but still creating value due to the synergy) or a slightly worse individual player, but still making up for the difference through that synergy.

In my previous analogy, the first two scenarios are trading the $2,500 bike for the $5,000 car and selling the car for $6,000 and/or buying the new bike for $2,000.

If you think re-purposing Miller to a younger forward is more likely to meet the mark from the individual player perspective, I'm all for that too. Maybe instead of Dunn you target Thomas from St. Louis. The point being that even if the player acquired doesn't have the same impact Miller has today, the cohesiveness with the core and future value (at a time when it will be most required) will generate further net value. You go from winning one trade that didn't make sense directionally to winning two, and aligning with your strategy.

I don't think they're anywhere close to contending, which is why I'd suggest re-purposing Miller. I just don't see the need to consider this a "bad" trade - 3 more "bad" trades like this and we'd accidentally become contenders.

If we're reducing it to one singular overarching mode, every GM in the league should have the mandate to contend for a Cup and maintain a competitive window for their entire tenure, which ideally spans decades. Guessing we'd both agree that is not a practical strategy at all as it is overly ambitious.

Your example is actually very demonstrative of what I'm getting at. By the same metrics used to assess the Miller trade, it was wrong for Wilson to acquire a 1st round pick for Toskala, vs a roster piece to help push them over the top for a Cup. As you said, it made no directional sense, but was simply a terrific value proposition for a mediocre goalie.

But if I was Wilson, from there, I'd have flipped that 1st for the player to get them over the top. Maybe that pick could've landed them Hossa in the offseason, and with him on SJ vs Pittsburgh the Sharks get past Detroit and take the Cup in 2008.

Of course, maybe a Hossa-like player was never available and the highest value proposition was making the pick, even given the limited likelihood of success. There is obviously a portion attributable to luck that vs an average 1st round pick (which was already surplus value for Toskala) they added way more surplus value by nailing the pick and landing Couture, who added value for years, not just as a one off like Hossa (a best case scenario) would have done.

Back to Toskala vs Miller - the only difference is that the "perceived" value of Toskala at the time was probably lower than a first, so the perception was that Wilson made out well (which he did). Miller was also "perceived" to be worth less than a 1st and a 3rd, but Tampa didn't make out so well, as Miller didn't flop like Toskala did in Toronto, and quite the opposite, is worth much more now.


First, thank you for the detailed discussion. Exploring this is fun.

My comment about modes refers the two extremes: Rebuild and Contend. Why 2 instead of 1? Well, the cup is the goal, yes, but efficiency toward that goal is dictated by resources, and resources are finite. So when a team is not a realistic contender, the manager liquidates roster assets. When it is a realistic contender, the manager accumulates roster assets. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway.

Saying that, managers often do not adhere strictly to these modes due to extraneous factors like luck and job security. The ones that do successfully are often recognized as the best GMs in the league.

Assessing Wilson-Toskala with this in mind: We agree on the surface. It does not make directional sense for a contender to liquidate a roster asset for futures. Another flip for roster help would have done so. Instead, Wilson may have felt that multiple years of Couture was worth more than any short-term solution, which still does serve the directional strategy long-term.

I think the key here is to judge the move among the larger body of work. SJ was a winning team throughout the acquisition and growth of Couture. In that sense, he only served to reinforce their direction when he graduated.

Where we lose each other is that I think you've categorized my view of the Miller trade as being bad overall. I have critiqued the initial trade heavily. Of that there is no doubt. Still, I have refrained from judging it overall until the return is cemented. Once it is, then the trade becomes a mix of terrible practice and great result. Maybe that's average to good overall, I don't know?

We actually both agree to re-purpose Miller into something of greater future net value. I just don't think that this is likely to happen with this GM.
 
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vancityluongo

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First, thank you for the detailed discussion. Exploring this is fun.

Agreed - thanks for reading my long-winded posts and offering your thoughtful replies. Feels nice to discuss the merits of what we can agree is a reasonably good move vs bogging down on the degree of terribleness of Markus Granlund or whatever haha

My comment about modes refers the two extremes: Rebuild and Contend. Why 2 instead of 1? Well, the cup is the goal, yes, but efficiency toward that goal is dictated by resources, and resources are finite. So when a team is not a realistic contender, the manager liquidates roster assets. When it is a realistic contender, the manager accumulates roster assets. That's how it's supposed to work, anyway.

Saying that, managers often do not adhere strictly to these modes due to extraneous factors like luck and job security. The ones that do successfully are often recognized as the best GMs in the league.

Agreed 100%.

Within that framework though, I'd say that rather than just sticking to "rebuild" or "contend" in a linear fashion, the very best managers are able to manage not neglecting one for the other, while the very worst managers are the ones that attempt to do just that but end up accomplishing neither. The singular focus ones are rarely seen in reality, but would include managers like the Pittsburgh version of Jim Rutherford who went all-in on many trade deadlines to solid results or the scorched earth model Yzerman is adopting right now in his Detroit tenure. But eventually those GM's would also have to flip the switch from one extreme to the other, and that's where we can really assess if they're just good managers following a plan or extraordinary team builders.

Assessing the Wilson-Toskala with this in mind: We agree on the surface. It does not make directional sense for a contender to liquidate a roster asset for futures. Another flip for roster help would have. Instead, Wilson may have felt that years of Couture was worth more than any short-term solution, which still does serve the directional strategy long-term.

I think the key here is to judge the move among the larger body of work. SJ was a winning team throughout the acquisition and growth of Couture. In that sense, he only served to reinforce their direction when he graduated.

Couture worked out for them, for sure, maybe even moreso than trading for one year of Marian Hossa or whoever could've reasonably been acquired to provide short-term help with a first. But that's not really assessing the asset management from a strategic standpoint. Trading for a first round pick does not hold an expected value of Logan Couture. That initial Toskala trade is not in execution worse if they had picked Keaton Ellerby instead, but not subsequently moving the pick for a roster player would have looked much worse in hindsight from the strategic point of view.

Where we lose each other is that I think you've categorized my view of the Miller trade as being bad overall. I have critiqued the initial trade heavily. Of that there is no doubt. Still, I have refrained from judging it overall until the return is cemented. Once it is, then the trade becomes a mix of terrible practice and great result. Maybe that's average to good overall, I don't know?

We actually both agree to re-purpose Miller into something of greater future net value. I just don't think that this is likely to happen with this GM.

Maybe where we differ slightly in this discussion is I don't think the result of the 1st rounder matters all that much, as it is totally out of the control of the parties at play. It could be a 10th overall that wins a lottery spot but still ends up a bust, or a 15th overall leading to the next Erik Karlsson or Logan Couture - that detail is irrelevant. Hell, the pick doesn't even belong to Tampa Bay anymore.

The only remaining wait and see is if one of the new, adjusted lottery rules allows them to keep this year's pick, they do, and then are a lottery team next year with the pick they have to give up.
Otherwise, the value we can attribute going back to Tampa was a protected first rounder. That would have been a catastrophic result in really one scenario; if the team missed the playoffs this year, deferred the pick, and then became a lottery team next year. But on the flipside, if they won a couple playoff rounds this year and gave up the 27th overall pick, that shouldn't impact how we assess this trade (other than obviously Miller would play a huge role in this hypothetical playoff run) from a strategic sense. We'd still be looking at a team very poised to fall back down a level or two, where it is valid to question if they should be rebuilding or giving up draft picks to add to their core.

Assuming Benning just gives up the pick between 10-20 that we get this year - great, crisis averted, and the risk on the trade paid off both in terms of the player acquired (better than expected) and the pick given up (either lower or right around what was expected).

So I'd basically already cement your judgment. It was a very good result on a trade that was terrible in practice. A potentially lottery bound team should not give up a first round pick, but thankfully there were some mitigations in place on the conditions of the pick and we most likely don't have to have this carrying over into next year.

Agreed completely that this GM is not going to re-purpose Miller but yeah, it'd be terrific if they did somehow. It's too bad Sutter's game just fell off the face of earth - you could easily justify to the trade market moving him solely on the emergence of Horvat and Miller, rather than because he's cratered as a hockey player. But that would be another great re-purposing option - if you can re-coup a third for Sutter and say his role (as a top-6 forward....) was basically taken over by Miller (obviously not how I see it, but maybe how Benning or Green feasibly could), well that's great.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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So the Canucks could still be up for a lottery pick this year, depending on how Phase 1 of the lottery goes. If a placeholder team is drawn in the top 3 pick lotteries, and the Canucks are eliminated from the playoffs in the 1st/qualifying round, then they would have a 1/8 (12.5%) chance of that top 3 pick. Not out of the woods yet it seems.
 

Canucks LB

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So if we lose and no placeholder gets a top 3 pick, we draft THIS year correct? what spot exactly?
 

timw33

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So if we lose and no placeholder gets a top 3 pick, we draft THIS year correct? what spot exactly?

I think that the 8 "Play In" losers would be seeded by Pts% in the 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 spots. So really depends on who wins, cause if like 4 teams below us in Pts% win their matchups and Vancouver loses, could be picking Top 10.

The problem is going into next season without the ejector seat option of having a potential lottery pick should the season turn sour early (we have a very tough offseason ahead of us with multiple critical FAs). You don't want to be the SJS this year where they have literally nothing to look forward to.
 

F A N

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So the Canucks could still be up for a lottery pick this year, depending on how Phase 1 of the lottery goes. If a placeholder team is drawn in the top 3 pick lotteries, and the Canucks are eliminated from the playoffs in the 1st/qualifying round, then they would have a 1/8 (12.5%) chance of that top 3 pick. Not out of the woods yet it seems.

So if we lose and no placeholder gets a top 3 pick, we draft THIS year correct? what spot exactly?

Given the Canucks' luck at the lottery the Canucks will not be picking in the top 3. TB might. :eek:
 

Canucks LB

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I think that the 8 "Play In" losers would be seeded by Pts% in the 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 spots. So really depends on who wins, cause if like 4 teams below us in Pts% win their matchups and Vancouver loses, could be picking Top 10.

The problem is going into next season without the ejector seat option of having a potential lottery pick should the season turn sour early (we have a very tough offseason ahead of us with multiple critical FAs). You don't want to be the SJS this year where they have literally nothing to look forward to.
Still tho, if we randomly get swepped for w/e reason, we can pick really high this year, after such a decent season, that's a big win.
And if we win, pick goes to next year, and we have playoffs.
It's nice either way
 

timw33

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Still tho, if we randomly get swepped for w/e reason, we can pick really high this year, after such a decent season, that's a big win.
And if we win, pick goes to next year, and we have playoffs.
It's nice either way

If we're picking like 12-15 it's not great, mostly without the pick safety for next year in the case of a back slide where we're likely to give up a better pick next year.

If we're picking 8/9/10, it's decent, I feel like that's likely the range of pick we'd give up next year.

If we win Top-3 pick, then we should all do backflips about adding an extremely good player this year and it fully takes the sting out of losing next years pick (except in the case where we could have landed two Top 3 picks). Then again, literally nothing has gone the Canucks' way in 50 years of draft lotteries, so don't get your hopes up.
 

PecaFan

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Was just watching a TSN video, and they were talking about how they haven't clarified the full definitions of playoffs yet.

IE, we could still give up a top 3 pick this year, if they consider making the "24 team playoffs" as qualifying for giving up this year's pick. Then we lose the first round, go into the weird lottery, "win" it, and Tampa/Jersey gets Lafreniere instead of us.

Have to admit, seeing that happen to Benning would make me howl with laughter.
 
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Blue and Green

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Was just watching a TSN video, and they were talking about how they haven't clarified the full definitions of playoffs yet.

IE, we could still give up a top 3 pick this year, if they consider making the "24 team playoffs" as qualifying for giving up this year's pick. Then we lose the first round, go into the weird lottery, "win" it, and Tampa/Jersey gets Lafreniere instead of us.

Have to admit, seeing that happen to Benning would make me howl with laughter.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that this won't be the case. The trade was made on the understanding that 16 teams would be in the playoffs, as per every season for the previous 40 years. And as usual, the 15 teams not in the round of 16 will be in the lottery. There's a clear delineation.
 
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