Van' Riemsdyk not available. Kadri's asking price is 'extremely high'

[ACC1224]

40 pts last season would put him as a top 25 offensive D in the league, aka a #1 lol. Not really pathetic in anyway.

but he speaks slowly.

 

[hotpaws]

but he speaks slowly.

speaking slowly isn't a problem , moving and thinking slowly is

 

[Suntouchable13]

Where people disagree about Dion is whether he will be a good player 3-4 years down the road. I don't think he will be. He will be an albatross. It's just what I think from what I am seeing in him currently. I don't think he will age gracefully. If the Leafs can find a trade partner, they should deal him within the next 2 years. If you think that he will be the captain when the Leafs go for the Stanley Cup, that's what's ridiculous.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Bargain bin?
Horcoff once hit 73 points,
Smyth has had 11 50-point+ seasons (Kadri one). He had 46 points in 2012, more than Kadri in every single season but one.
Hemsky had TWO 70-points seasons and was scoring at a similar pace to Kadri in his last years in Edmonton.
Pouliot is scoring at a similar pace to Kadri while playing fewer minutes.
Sekera is a decent D-man and was highly sought after in the offseason.

Anyway, the original point was don't do what Edmonton did. Well, which veterans did Edmonton get rid of that they should have kept? Exactly.

-Horcoff hit 73 points at around 30 and was bound to have serious injuries issues with the way he played. Prior to and after that he never was anywhere close to that #. We could also say Kadri was close to a PPG player if you want to say Horcoff is a 73 point player.

-Smyth left the team in 07 tradeline and didn't come back till the 11-12 season when he was a complete shell of his former self

-Hemsky was always injured and dramatically overrated by Oilers fan. We have a similar player in Lupul who can never stay healthy (except we don't overrate him). Nobody classifies him as a core piece

-Pouliot only came along last season

Out of the 5 that you mentioned one was a center heading out of his prime and towards injury issues, 3 are wingers and the one D only came along this off-season. I take our veteran core in Phaneuf, Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Komarov over that veteran group because of their ages, health, style of play and also because of their positions. At the same time they are also always pieces that we could deal.

The Oilers have also made so many other mistakes along the way like rushing prospects, terrible UFA signings, not finding a goalie, building around the wing, not drafting well outside of the top picks, questions about their medical staff, etc.

 

[Menzinger]

Dionbis playing well under Babcock - no argument here. But he is getting sheltered usage, and at 7 million a season long term still seems like a negative investment.

A team can never have too much capspace - having a bad contract can prevent a team from making other moves.

 

[thewave]

Dionbis playing well under Babcock - no argument here. But he is getting sheltered usage, and at 7 million a season long term still seems like a negative investment.

A team can never have too much capspace - having a bad contract can prevent a team from making other moves.

Here I can help you out. Pretend MLSE writes off 2m of his contract as a loss. Then decides to not get a 5-6m UFA comparable D.

There you go now you don't have to eat 2m cap on a player and have the same outcome.

 

[Antropovsky]

-Horcoff hit 73 points at around 30 and was bound to have serious injuries issues with the way he played. Prior to and after that he never was anywhere close to that #. We could also say Kadri was close to a PPG player if you want to say Horcoff is a 73 point player.

-Smyth left the team in 07 tradeline and didn't come back till the 11-12 season when he was a complete shell of his former self

-Hemsky was always injured and dramatically overrated by Oilers fan. We have a similar player in Lupul who can never stay healthy (except we don't overrate him). Nobody classifies him as a core piece

-Pouliot only came along last season

Out of the 5 that you mentioned one was a center heading out of his prime and towards injury issues, 3 are wingers and the one D only came along this off-season. I take our veteran core in Phaneuf, Gardiner, Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Komarov over that veteran group because of their ages, health, style of play and also because of their positions. At the same time they are also always pieces that we could deal.

The Oilers have also made so many other mistakes along the way like rushing prospects, terrible UFA signings, not finding a goalie, building around the wing, not drafting well outside of the top picks, questions about their medical staff, etc.

This probably has nothing to do with your argument... But

Horcoff hit 50 in 53 two years later... But times have changed, the year horcoff hit 73 points, 20+ players had 85 plus points, and there was like 5 100+ point players (this had a lot to do with the nhl handing out lots of pp time because of the crack down on obstruction). Last year the art Ross went to Ben with 87, the 20th highest scoring player had 69 points.

73 in 2005 would be like 55 this year.... Or something close, I'd bet if someone had the time to figure it out.

 

[Menzinger]

Here I can help you out. Pretend MLSE writes off 2m of his contract as a loss. Then decides to not get a 5-6m UFA comparable D.

There you go now you don't have to eat 2m cap on a player and have the same outcome.

Or it could make the difference between signing a player like Stamkos or not.

It could make the difference between resigning a home grown talent or not.Almost every recent cup contender is a borderline cap team. Every dollar counts. Just because Dion isn't a problem today doesn't mean he won't be one in 4 years.

I suppose we'll just have to see what management does wuth him. We know they talked to Detroit last deadline about a potential deal - but maybe they've changed their mind.

 

[Duke Silver]

This probably has nothing to do with your argument... But

Horcoff hit 50 in 53 two years later... But times have changed, the year horcoff hit 73 points, 20+ players had 85 plus points, and there was like 5 100+ point players (this had a lot to do with the nhl handing out lots of pp time because of the crack down on obstruction). Last year the art Ross went to Ben with 87, the 20th highest scoring player had 69 points.

73 in 2005 would be like 55 this year.... Or something close, I'd bet if someone had the time to figure it out.

73 points in 2005-06 (6.05 goals-per-game) = 63 points in 2014-15 (5.32 goals-per-game)

(Don't have full season goals-per-game for 2015-16 yet, this likely becomes worse.)

But using last year's stats, Horcoff's season was the equivalent of placing 35th in last year's listings (Palat, Schwartz, Forsberg, Eberle, Vrbata).

 

[Ricky Bobby]

This probably has nothing to do with your argument... But

Horcoff hit 50 in 53 two years later... But times have changed, the year horcoff hit 73 points, 20+ players had 85 plus points, and there was like 5 100+ point players (this had a lot to do with the nhl handing out lots of pp time because of the crack down on obstruction). Last year the art Ross went to Ben with 87, the 20th highest scoring player had 69 points.

73 in 2005 would be like 55 this year.... Or something close, I'd bet if someone had the time to figure it out.

That's true.

I actually really liked Horcoff but the Oilers were very stupid in handing out a 6 year x 5.5 cap hit who was around after two consecutive seasons of finishing out of the playoffs. It was especially dumb to give a player with that many miles on his body with that style of game he brings.

Thankfully we avoided being the team that handed out a similar doomed contract to Bolland.

We did hand out a Horcoff level type contract in Clarkson but we've managed to at least minimize the damage of that with the Horton trade.

 

[4thline]

Bargain bin?
Horcoff once hit 73 points,
Smyth has had 11 50-point+ seasons (Kadri one). He had 46 points in 2012, more than Kadri in every single season but one.
Hemsky had TWO 70-points seasons and was scoring at a similar pace to Kadri in his last years in Edmonton.
Pouliot is scoring at a similar pace to Kadri while playing fewer minutes.
Sekera is a decent D-man and was highly sought after in the offseason.

Anyway, the original point was don't do what Edmonton did. Well, which veterans did Edmonton get rid of that they should have kept? Exactly.

And which of those myriad of accomplishments made them capable of supporting and sheltering the Oiler's rookies from 2011-2015? Hall and Nuge were expected to carry that team from the moment they put on the jersey. That's not the Leaf plan for Nylander and Marner.

My whole point was just to counter the whole "get good value at all costs, we can support the rookies with cheap UFA's" mantra

 

[New Liskeard]

Or it could make the difference between signing a player like Stamkos or not.

It could make the difference between resigning a home grown talent or not.Almost every recent cup contender is a borderline cap team. Every dollar counts. Just because Dion isn't a problem today doesn't mean he won't be one in 4 years.

I suppose we'll just have to see what management does wuth him. We know they talked to Detroit last deadline about a potential deal - but maybe they've changed their mind.

Then prove he will be a problem 4 years down the line. I'll make the argument that he likely wont be; specifically looking at who the Leafs will likely have to sign and where they are in their stages of development and RFA status. Marner and Nylander haven't even played 1 NHL game yet, and in 4 years from now, will not have negotiating strength based on the current CBA and their RFA status. That holds true for all the prospects in the AHL and other leagues. Not to mention the 26 million they have available next year, 9.5 coming off the books in 2 years etc etc.

 

[yubbers]

40 pts last season would put him as a top 25 offensive D in the league, aka a #1 lol. Not really pathetic in anyway.

Last year he was playing against top lines

This year he would be doing so as a second pairing man. See the difference?

 

[champs*]

Last year he was playing against top lines

This year he would be doing so as a second pairing man. See the difference?

most on here will not understand that ...

 

[Suntouchable13]

Then prove he will be a problem 4 years down the line. I'll make the argument that he likely wont be; specifically looking at who the Leafs will likely have to sign and where they are in their stages of development and RFA status. Marner and Nylander haven't even played 1 NHL game yet, and in 4 years from now, will not have negotiating strength based on the current CBA and their RFA status. That holds true for all the prospects in the AHL and other leagues. Not to mention the 26 million they have available next year, 9.5 coming off the books in 2 years etc etc.

Are you saying that he will be exactly the same player in 4 years from now as he is now? It will be a surprise if he is still as effective when he is 34. You'll be paying 7M to a 3rd pairing D. I don't think he is going to be a 1st or 2nd pairing D when he is 34.

 

[OvenMittz*]

most on here will not understand that ...

You never think for yourself do you.. Just take another users post, make an insult towards everyone else.. And then add a useless smile emoji.

 

[champs*]

You never think for yourself do you.. Just take another users post, make an insult towards everyone else.. And then add a useless smile emoji.

do me a favour and put me on ignore

 

[A1LeafNation]

Are you saying that he will be exactly the same player in 4 years from now as he is now? It will be a surprise if he is still as effective when he is 34. You'll be paying 7M to a 3rd pairing D. I don't think he is going to be a 1st or 2nd pairing D when he is 34.

brian campbell

 

[Suntouchable13]

brian campbell

Brian Campbell always had the wheels. Dion does not.

 

[New Liskeard]

Are you saying that he will be exactly the same player in 4 years from now as he is now? It will be a surprise if he is still as effective when he is 34. You'll be paying 7M to a 3rd pairing D. I don't think he is going to be a 1st or 2nd pairing D when he is 34.

I'm saying Dion's contract is not a hindrance to the cap today and it shouldn't be a problem later on either. Cap space is the least of worries for MLSE. Posters are looking for and making up reason as to why Phaneuf was a bad signing due to a bias and dislike.

 

[rumman]

I'm saying Dion's contract is not a hindrance to the cap today and it shouldn't be a problem later on either. Cap space is the least of worries for MLSE. Posters are looking for and making up reason as to why Phaneuf was a bad signing due to a bias and dislike.

Dion was given too much term, and too many dollars for His skill set. Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows this.

 

[hullsy47]

Dion was given too much term, and too many dollars for His skill set. Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows this.

burke /nonis didn't have a clue ....even kessel was overpaid in his first contract ,burke set him up to make 7-8 million a year...
they set this team back worse than JFJ ,in fact if Gilmour doesn't get hurt in jfj last season playoff run ,I think hed have had a better legacy
don't blame the players ,burke nonis gave out long term lucrative deal like candy at Halloween

 

[rumman]

burke /nonis didn't have a clue ....even kessel was overpaid in his first contract ,burke set him up to make 7-8 million a year...
they set this team back worse than JFJ ,in fact if Gilmour doesn't get hurt in jfj last season playoff run ,I think hed have had a better legacy
don't blame the players ,burke nonis gave out long term lucrative deal like candy at Halloween

hey I agree with you, not the player's fault if mgmt wants to overpay, BUT your judged by your value. Just ask Jeff Finger, who rode the bus with the Marlies because he wasn't worth the cap hit to the Leafs.

 

[Doc300c]

Anything Dion and Term / Money related can be brushed away. In another 4 seasons he will have 1 season left. Marner / Nylander / Whomever joins the team from now until then will have ELC contracts until Dion has 1 or 2 Seasons left. If you lock up a player for 8 years after his ELC its not going to be $15 mil. We will be fine. Lupul's contract comes off the books in another 2 seasons. The only prospect we have that is due a new contract ( still RFA ) before Lupul's contract is done is Connor Brown. So we'll be fine.

If money comes down to being that tight we can retain 50% and ship Dion to a team that needs to meet the salary floor.

Dion at $3.5M is a steal even in 3 seasons from now.

Due $1M July 1st 2019
After the signing bonus he would make $5.5M in 19/20
Due $2.5M July 1st 2020
After the signing bonus he would make $3M in 20/21

If traded after July 2nd 2019 and with 50% retention he would cost $5.5M total ( for 2 years ) and take up $7M in Cap for 2 years($14M).
Any team near the floor will take that even if he sits on the bench.

 

[hotpaws]

Anything Dion and Term / Money related can be brushed away. In another 4 seasons he will have 1 season left. Marner / Nylander / Whomever joins the team from now until then will have ELC contracts until Dion has 1 or 2 Seasons left. If you lock up a player for 8 years after his ELC its not going to be $15 mil. We will be fine. Lupul's contract comes off the books in another 2 seasons. The only prospect we have that is due a new contract ( still RFA ) before Lupul's contract is done is Connor Brown. So we'll be fine.

If money comes down to being that tight we can retain 50% and ship Dion to a team that needs to meet the salary floor.

Dion at $3.5M is a steal even in 3 seasons from now.

Due $1M July 1st 2019
After the signing bonus he would make $5.5M in 19/20
Due $2.5M July 1st 2020
After the signing bonus he would make $3M in 20/21

If traded after July 2nd 2019 and with 50% retention he would cost $5.5M total ( for 2 years ) and take up $7M in Cap for 2 years($14M).
Any team near the floor will take that even if he sits on the bench.

except the goal is to try to improve the team , not just stay under the cap and this is where his cap hit becomes a problem for us

he's overpaid now and in a year or two he'll probably be unmovable