Confirmed with Link: [VAN/CHI] Canucks acquire F Matthew Highmore for F Adam Gaudette

[Fatass]

People are disappointed in the organizations asset management. Not understanding that feels like being intentionally obtuse. It's not about losing Gaudette....or Shinkaruk....or Biega....or Stecher.....or Hutton etc etc It's about the thought process, that leads the actual process, in which there isn't a discernable process, but ultimately ends in diminished assets.

Benning waits too long to get off guys. With prospects he needs to decide very auićkly if the player fits with our team’s future. The longer he waits; the lower the value becomes. And he’s guilty of trading high picks for other teams’ stalled prospects.

 

[MS]

Don’t bullshit in the second part of it. My point was that people on here justified it because of Gaudette - not that it was the reasoning from the front office. It’s also on twitter in basically every thread from the day of the Toffoli trade.



But I’ll entertain your strawman anyways.

Who do you think he’s referring to here? There’s literally only three centers he could have been referring to (Gaudette, Lind, Focht).

Lind was a full-time winger at the time that statement was made.

 

[Dab]

Benning waits too long to get off guys. With prospects he needs to decide very auićkly if the player fits with our team’s future. The longer he waits; the lower the value becomes. And he’s guilty of trading high picks for other teams’ stalled prospects.

 

[F A N]

I'd rather get a 3rd than Highmore. A 3rd is actual draft capital that has value and can be moved for something (see Schmidt). Likewise would have preferred a 3rd for Shinkaruk and he should have been worth at least that.

6th-7th rounders really aren't worth anything in trades and also basically never turn into NHL players, and if you can get a youngish bottom-6 guy on a league minimum contract who has shown he can be a quality NHL player in the bubble last year, that's a much better option.

Of all your takes (which I find largely reasonable), your take on Shinkaruk is the most puzzling to me. You yourself admitted that you weren't a fan of Shinkaruk. He did nothing post draft to indicate he was a top 10-15 talent that some thought he should have been. You thought that if he wasn't close to a point per game player in his 2nd AHL season he would be worth nothing at the trade deadline. Somehow, he was kind of close to a point per game and he's worth at least a 3rd? You thought he was crap yet you thought he could return a 2nd/3rd. I mean do you expect to be the only person to have watched Shinkaruk play and thought he was unlikely to be an NHL player?

 

[JAK]

It's a no win game for any GM.

Had Benning Traded Gaudette instead of Madden, people would rage for giving up a player that is producing.

Trade Gaudette post playoff bubble? People would rage for trading him just for a bad first playoff.

Don't trade Gaudette? People would rage on Benning not getting off his assets fast enough when they can't play D, and can't play Centre, and can't be a top 6 wing.

This fan base.

 

[MS]

Of all your takes (which I find largely reasonable), your take on Shinkaruk is the most puzzling to me. You yourself admitted that you weren't a fan of Shinkaruk. He did nothing post draft to indicate he was a top 10-15 talent that some thought he should have been. You thought that if he wasn't close to a point per game player in his 2nd AHL season he would be worth nothing at the trade deadline. Somehow, he was kind of close to a point per game and he's worth at least a 3rd? You thought he was crap yet you thought he could return a 2nd/3rd. I mean do you expect to be the only person to have watched Shinkaruk play and thought he was unlikely to be an NHL player?

There are plenty of players I personally haven't liked who have still been traded for plenty of value because of pedigree and lower-level production. When I'm looking at something like this I'm separating 'what I would have paid for the guy' vs. 'what a large amount of historical data would indicate the market is and what *someone* would have paid for the guy'.

I do not believe that Shinkaruk was somehow literally the only prospect in NHL history who had zero value to anybody despite being a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season. And when you look at Jim Benning's past transaction history and lack of negotiating skills and inability to extract value for anyone ... I think it's far more likely that he failed to generate value for this asset than that the asset somehow didn't have value.

 

[VanJack]

It's a no win game for any GM.

Had Benning Traded Gaudette instead of Madden, people would rage for giving up a player that is producing.

Trade Gaudette post playoff bubble? People would rage for trading him just for a bad first playoff.

Don't trade Gaudette? People would rage on Benning not getting off his assets fast enough when they can't play D, and can't play Centre, and can't be a top 6 wing.

This fan base.

I think you're totally missing the point here. If Benning and the Canucks were convinced Gaudette wasn't going to be a long-term fit with the team, the time to deal him would have been the off-season. What the fans think shouldn't matter for a confident and experienced NHL GM.

After all, Gaudette was coming off a decent breakthrough season with 12 goals and 33 points in 59 games.....whatever value he might have had in the trade market was at an all-time high then. But no, after going through a miserable 2021 season, his value plummets and that's when Benning deals him. And apparently all he could get was an NHL-AHL 'tweener in Highmore.

In the words of the gambler, "you've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to throw'em." WHEN you trade a player matters. And as other posters have pointed out, Benning consistently gets the timing wrong and devalues his own assets.

 

[MS]

I think you're totally missing the point here. If Benning and the Canucks were convinced Gaudette wasn't going to be a long-term fit with the team, the time to deal him would have been the off-season. What the fans think shouldn't matter for a confident and experienced NHL GM.

After all, Gaudette was coming off a decent breakthrough season with 12 goals and 33 points in 59 games.....whatever value he might have had in the trade market was at an all-time high then. But no, after going through a miserable 2021 season, his value plummets and that's when Benning deals him. And apparently all he could get was an NHL-AHL 'tweener in Highmore.

In the words of the gambler, "you've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to throw'em." WHEN you trade a player matters. And as other posters have pointed out, Benning consistently gets the timing wrong and devalues his own assets.

If they had a plan to put Gaudette in a larger role and he failed, that would be excusable. Stuff like that happens.

But they clearly did not. There was no preseason this year and in the season opener Gaudette played 8 minutes as the 4th line center. Their 'plan' was that they would leave Gaudette as a depth C where he had been struggling badly defensively and that ... somehow ... he would make a big step forward.

There were two reasonable options for Gaudette last summer :

1) View him as a Toffoli replacement and shift him into those minutes on a scoring line and hope his production takes a big step forward as a scoring winger.

2) If you don't view him as a winger, sell high and trade him because he's clearly not a fit going forward as a C for this franchise.

This decision should have been made in discussions with the player and coaches, and a plan for the asset should have been formulated. Either decision would have been fine. But as usual, when given a choice between Door A and Door B, Jim Benning pulls out a gun and shoots himself right in the dick. They did nothing, didn't really have a plan, stuck him in crap minutes, and destroyed the asset.

 

[I in the Eye]

It's a no win game for any GM.

Had Benning Traded Gaudette instead of Madden, people would rage for giving up a player that is producing.

Trade Gaudette post playoff bubble? People would rage for trading him just for a bad first playoff.

Don't trade Gaudette? People would rage on Benning not getting off his assets fast enough when they can't play D, and can't play Centre, and can't be a top 6 wing.

This fan base.

If the team was good to great, for the majority of the fans, it would be a win game for the GM. I know, but Gillis.

 

[F A N]

Benning waits too long to get off guys. With prospects he needs to decide very auićkly if the player fits with our team’s future. The longer he waits; the lower the value becomes. And he’s guilty of trading high picks for other teams’ stalled prospects.

Ideally yes. But in practice it is more difficult because development isn't linear. Take Kole Lind. Canucks liked him so drafted him. He had a solid draft + 1 season. Not many would look to dump him at that point. After his first pro season? Many of us would have taken a 2nd if that was on the table but at least a 3rd? After his 2nd pro season? Chances are he's wasn't worth much so might as well keep him and see if he develops.

 

[F A N]

There are plenty of players I personally haven't liked who have still been traded for plenty of value because of pedigree and lower-level production. When I'm looking at something like this I'm separating 'what I would have paid for the guy' vs. 'what a large amount of historical data would indicate the market is and what *someone* would have paid for the guy'.

I do not believe that Shinkaruk was somehow literally the only prospect in NHL history who had zero value to anybody despite being a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season. And when you look at Jim Benning's past transaction history and lack of negotiating skills and inability to extract value for anyone ... I think it's far more likely that he failed to generate value for this asset than that the asset somehow didn't have value.

The guy was a late 1st round pick who was a faller in the draft. Had the Canucks not drafted him he could have easily been an early 2nd round pick. This "pedigree" you speak of is like Jordan Schroeder's pedigree. Both garnered top 10 pick considerations at one time but there were questions at the time of the draft about their abilities to translate their game to the NHL so they were drafted where the Canucks drafted them. The questions that teams had were not answered in subsequent seasons. You yourself thought that he was crap.

Again, it's just puzzling that you would think that NHL teams can't see what you correctly saw in the player.

 

[MS]

The guy was a late 1st round pick who was a faller in the draft. Had the Canucks not drafted him he could have easily been an early 2nd round pick. This "pedigree" you speak of is like Jordan Schroeder's pedigree. Both garnered top 10 pick considerations at one time but there were questions at the time of the draft about their abilities to translate their game to the NHL so they were drafted where the Canucks drafted them. The questions that teams had were not answered in subsequent seasons. You yourself thought that he was crap.

Again, it's just puzzling that you would think that NHL teams can't see what you correctly saw in the player.

How is this puzzling?

I felt that guys like Erik Gudbranson and Luca Sbisa were absolute garbage for years but NHL GMs kept spending assets to acquire them over and over again. Likewise I thought Alex Biega was very effective but also understood that the NHL trade market didn't agree with that. Who I think is a good player clearly doesn't like up 100% with what the NHL trade market dictates as a player's value.

I wouldn't touch Nolan Patrick with a 10-foot pole but I'm absolutely positive some NHL GM will give a 2nd rounder for him.

So no, I didn't particularly love Shinkaruk. But I've also followed this sport long enough and closely enough to understand that a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season is going to have value. Always. And given the choice between a) Shinkaruk is a unicorn and the only guy ever not to have trade value in his situation or b) a bad GM that can never extract value on anything continued that pattern by not extracting value in this case ... I'm pretty obviously going to go with (b).

 

[VanJack]

How is this puzzling?

I felt that guys like Erik Gudbranson and Luca Sbisa were absolute garbage for years but NHL GMs kept spending assets to acquire them over and over again. Likewise I thought Alex Biega was very effective but also understood that the NHL trade market didn't agree with that. Who I think is a good player clearly doesn't like up 100% with what the NHL trade market dictates as a player's value.

I wouldn't touch Nolan Patrick with a 10-foot pole but I'm absolutely positive some NHL GM will give a 2nd rounder for him.

So no, I didn't particularly love Shinkaruk. But I've also followed this sport long enough and closely enough to understand that a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season is going to have value. Always. And given the choice between a) Shinkaruk is a unicorn and the only guy ever not to have trade value in his situation or b) a bad GM that can never extract value on anything continued that pattern by not extracting value in this case ... I'm pretty obviously going to go with (b).

Absolutely true....but nobody spent the kind of assets the Canucks did to acquire these two guys. Sbisa was the 'promising d-man' coming back from the Ducks in the Kesler trade.....and Gudbranson cost them a high second rounder; a fourth rounder and Jared McCann.

Just for comparisons sake, the Preds just acquired Gudbranson for a seventh round draft pick....which about all he's worth. And is Sbisa still in the league?

 

[Samzilla]

Absolutely true....but nobody spent the kind of assets the Canucks did to acquire these two guys. Sbisa was the 'promising d-man' coming back from the Ducks in the Kesler trade.....and Gudbranson cost them a high second rounder; a fourth rounder and Jared McCann.

Just for comparisons sake, the Preds just acquired Gudbranson for a seventh round draft pick....which about all he's worth. And is Sbisa still in the league?

Funny enough Sbisa has one game with the Preds this season according to hockeydb.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Absolutely true....but nobody spent the kind of assets the Canucks did to acquire these two guys. Sbisa was the 'promising d-man' coming back from the Ducks in the Kesler trade.....and Gudbranson cost them a high second rounder; a fourth rounder and Jared McCann.

Just for comparisons sake, the Preds just acquired Gudbranson for a seventh round draft pick....which about all he's worth. And is Sbisa still in the league?

The Gudbranson trade was bad, but making a comparison in trade value from when he was 24 years old to 29 is out of whack.

 

[Pip]

There are plenty of players I personally haven't liked who have still been traded for plenty of value because of pedigree and lower-level production. When I'm looking at something like this I'm separating 'what I would have paid for the guy' vs. 'what a large amount of historical data would indicate the market is and what *someone* would have paid for the guy'.

I do not believe that Shinkaruk was somehow literally the only prospect in NHL history who had zero value to anybody despite being a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season. And when you look at Jim Benning's past transaction history and lack of negotiating skills and inability to extract value for anyone ... I think it's far more likely that he failed to generate value for this asset than that the asset somehow didn't have value.

Look at what Linden Vey returned

 

[MS]

Look at what Linden Vey returned

Or what we paid for Goldobin, a basically identical prospect to Shinkaruk.

 

[m9]

The Shinkaruk one isn't hard to figure out - Benning/Weisbrod simply wanted Granlund and didn't mind paying the cost of a mid-round pick for the him.

I don't have any doubt they could have gotten a mid-round pick for Shinkaruk if that's the path they wanted to go. I don't think they sold low on Shinkaruk, they just overvalued Granlund.

 

[F A N]

How is this puzzling?

I felt that guys like Erik Gudbranson and Luca Sbisa were absolute garbage for years but NHL GMs kept spending assets to acquire them over and over again. Likewise I thought Alex Biega was very effective but also understood that the NHL trade market didn't agree with that. Who I think is a good player clearly doesn't like up 100% with what the NHL trade market dictates as a player's value.

I wouldn't touch Nolan Patrick with a 10-foot pole but I'm absolutely positive some NHL GM will give a 2nd rounder for him.

So no, I didn't particularly love Shinkaruk. But I've also followed this sport long enough and closely enough to understand that a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season is going to have value. Always. And given the choice between a) Shinkaruk is a unicorn and the only guy ever not to have trade value in his situation or b) a bad GM that can never extract value on anything continued that pattern by not extracting value in this case ... I'm pretty obviously going to go with (b).

Right so it's all just your take on things. Even if it's reasonable it doesn't mean it has a basis in reality. Pronmon, whose "scouting abilities" may be questionable wrote this (behind Athletic paywall):

A pro scout at the time of the deal who wasn’t a Shinkaruk fan argued, “If the Canucks didn’t trade him then, they would have been offered a penny for him the following season.”

You yourself like to value players based on where they are in their careers and I would think you would agree with the above. Those former 1st round picks with pedigree you speak of tend to have NHL games under their belts where they at least showed some promise. So absolutely Nolan Patrick would net a 2nd but that's also a player who many saw as a #1 pick (similar to Bennett) and who is playing in the NHL. At least if you're trading a 2nd for Patrick you're getting a player you feel confident inserting into your NHL lineup. That's a far cry from Shinkaruk who nobody would be happy pencilling into the 3rd line.

 

[Fatass]

Right so it's all just your take on things. Even if it's reasonable it doesn't mean it has a basis in reality. Pronmon, whose "scouting abilities" may be questionable wrote this (behind Athletic paywall):

A pro scout at the time of the deal who wasn’t a Shinkaruk fan argued, “If the Canucks didn’t trade him then, they would have been offered a penny for him the following season.”

You yourself like to value players based on where they are in their careers and I would think you would agree with the above. Those former 1st round picks with pedigree you speak of tend to have NHL games under their belts where they at least showed some promise. So absolutely Nolan Patrick would net a 2nd but that's also a player who many saw as a #1 pick (similar to Bennett) and who is playing in the NHL. At least if you're trading a 2nd for Patrick you're getting a player you feel confident inserting into your NHL lineup. That's a far cry from Shinkaruk who nobody would be happy pencilling into the 3rd line.

Why not, during what should have been a rebuilding phase, get back a second round pick for Shinkaruk, like what Benning (imo foolishly) gave up for both Vey and Baertschi?

 

[MS]

Right so it's all just your take on things. Even if it's reasonable it doesn't mean it has a basis in reality. Pronmon, whose "scouting abilities" may be questionable wrote this (behind Athletic paywall):

A pro scout at the time of the deal who wasn’t a Shinkaruk fan argued, “If the Canucks didn’t trade him then, they would have been offered a penny for him the following season.”

You yourself like to value players based on where they are in their careers and I would think you would agree with the above. Those former 1st round picks with pedigree you speak of tend to have NHL games under their belts where they at least showed some promise. So absolutely Nolan Patrick would net a 2nd but that's also a player who many saw as a #1 pick (similar to Bennett) and who is playing in the NHL. At least if you're trading a 2nd for Patrick you're getting a player you feel confident inserting into your NHL lineup. That's a far cry from Shinkaruk who nobody would be happy pencilling into the 3rd line.

You're moving the goalposts by getting into a discussion of Patrick vs. Shinkaruk. Your initial claim was that I was somehow contradicting myself by not liking a player but still thinking he had value, which is very obviously not true.

Again :

I have literally never, ever seen a high-producing #1 pick in his draft+3 season who was somehow worthless. Nikolai Goldobin was a player the same age at the time he was traded here taken at the same point in the draft who was producing nearly identical AHL numbers and he was worth one of the top rentals available at the trade deadline, apparently.

If someone was trading for Joe Veleno or Dominik Bokk right now, I'd expect those players would be worth a 2nd-3rd round pick. At worst.

Occam's Razor. What's more likely - that Hunter Shinkaruk was a unicorn who was the only person fitting his profile in NHL history who was somehow worthless? Or that Jim Benning, the most comically terrible negotiator in NHL history, failed to extract value from this asset in the same way he failed to extract value from countless other assets during his tenure?

 

[bandwagonesque]

Don’t bullshit in the second part of it. My point was that people on here justified it because of Gaudette - not that it was the reasoning from the front office. It’s also on twitter in basically every thread from the day of the Toffoli trade.



But I’ll entertain your strawman anyways.

Who do you think he’s referring to here? There’s literally only three centers he could have been referring to (Gaudette, Lind, Focht).

You’re assuming the team saw Madden as a centre long-term despite being under 160lbs and poor on face offs on the college level.

 

[Peen]

You’re assuming the team saw Madden as a centre long-term despite being under 160lbs and poor on face offs on the college level.

True they should have never tried pettersson as a center as well prob should put him on the wing

 

[Vector]

True they should have never tried pettersson as a center as well prob should put him on the wing

Or Gaudette.

 

[F A N]

You're moving the goalposts by getting into a discussion of Patrick vs. Shinkaruk. Your initial claim was that I was somehow contradicting myself by not liking a player but still thinking he had value, which is very obviously not true.

Again :

I have literally never, ever seen a high-producing #1 pick in his draft+3 season who was somehow worthless. Nikolai Goldobin was a player the same age at the time he was traded here taken at the same point in the draft who was producing nearly identical AHL numbers and he was worth one of the top rentals available at the trade deadline, apparently.

If someone was trading for Joe Veleno or Dominik Bokk right now, I'd expect those players would be worth a 2nd-3rd round pick. At worst.

Occam's Razor. What's more likely - that Hunter Shinkaruk was a unicorn who was the only person fitting his profile in NHL history who was somehow worthless? Or that Jim Benning, the most comically terrible negotiator in NHL history, failed to extract value from this asset in the same way he failed to extract value from countless other assets during his tenure?

I never said anything about Shinkaruk not having value. Those are your words. What I took issue with is you thinking he is worth possibly a 2nd round pick. Goldobin stepped into the AHL and was a good player right away (something you criticized Shinkaruk for not doing). He was traded with essentially a 4th round pick for Hansen. People think that just because a player requires waivers the following season that they will have no value. That's not true at all.