GDT: UFC on ESPN: Tsarukyan vs. Gamrot/Bellator 282: Mousasi vs. Eblen/PFL 5

[CDJ]

Zero sub attempts and 4 ground strikes the entire fight, yet ppl want to say control time outweighs being outstruck every round and knocked down. Tsarukyan literally did the same amount of damage on the ground lol

 

[m9]

Round 4 was just a case of Arman doing his best work in the first half of the round and Gamrot in the second half. Judges often remember what happened later clearer and overvalue it.

 

[CDJ]

But yes Gamrot doing absolutely nothing with control time is better than this. Clearly a slip.

Can the judges hear the commentary? Maybe that’s it. There’s still not any good explanation I’ve heard.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

And just like that they have their heads in the sand.

 

[m9]

But yes Gamrot doing absolutely nothing with control time is better than this. Clearly a slip.

Can the judges hear the commentary? Maybe that’s it. There’s still not any good explanation I’ve heard.

Commentary has a similar view to judges and they knew it was hard to see what happened. Just back to what we discussed last week, dumb that judges are even in that position

 

[Taytro]

A flash knockdown is more damage than what was landed by Gamrot’s 1 strike a minute and control time and guess what? That’s the criteria! That’s without factoring in 21-7 (dispute all you want it was clear as day Tsarukyan got the better of the striking that round…mainly because Gamrot didn’t strike!)

I lost $0 on that. I lost on Paiva, which was a fair decision. I just hate inconsistent scoring.

If you want to go back to the old rules then Gamrot won the round. It’s not the old rules and hasn’t been scored like that in awhile

I remember you complaining about the judging last week too. The fact of the matter is that judges will always have bias in how they score fights. They don't have punch counts, they don't have all the various views and replays, they don't have detailed information about control times. They have to watch the fight unfold and score it real time based on what they saw over the previous 5 minutes. There always has been bias, mistakes, upsets, controversies, etc. Sure the criteria changed fairly recently and those changes could have made round 4 lean towards Arman, but the judges didn't see it that way.

In a fight this close, where rounds are this close, a lot of them could go either way. All the judges and the commentators (all people watching it cage side), scored the fight the same way. So there's not a ton to argue about.

Maybe they need a PFL smart cage and indepth stats and then to create an algorithm to determine winner of the fights or provide those stats to the judges. Until then, judges will judge what they see. Not really a controversial one here. One round could have gone the other way.

As Dana says - never leave it in the hands of the judges. Close fight, some rounds could go either way, they went either way. Judges all saw it the same. Way she goes, on to the next.

 

[SuperScript29]

Zero sub attempts and 4 ground strikes the entire fight, yet ppl want to say control time outweighs being outstruck every round and knocked down. Tsarukyan literally did the same amount of damage on the ground lol

He had Arman's back at one point and was going for a rear-naked choke.

 

[CDJ]

He had Arman's back at one point and was going for a rear-naked choke.

Zero sub attempts, there was nothing close to a choke. If the striking isn’t even then having somebody’s back doesn’t matter if you don’t do anything with it. The striking was not even, neither in volume or in impact.

I remember you complaining about the judging last week too. The fact of the matter is that judges will always have bias in how they score fights. They don't have punch counts, they don't have all the various views and replays, they don't have detailed information about control times. They have to watch the fight unfold and score it real time based on what they saw over the previous 5 minutes. There always has been bias, mistakes, upsets, controversies, etc. Sure the criteria changed fairly recently and those changes could have made round 4 lean towards Arman, but the judges didn't see it that way.

In a fight this close, where rounds are this close, a lot of them could go either way. All the judges and the commentators (all people watching it cage side), scored the fight the same way. So there's not a ton to argue about.

Maybe they need a PFL smart cage and indepth stats and then to create an algorithm to determine winner of the fights or provide those stats to the judges. Until then, judges will judge what they see. Not really a controversial one here. One round could have gone the other way.

As Dana says - never leave it in the hands of the judges. Close fight, some rounds could go either way, they went either way. Judges all saw it the same. Way she goes, on to the next.

I complained about giving round 4 to Emmett last week, yes, because it was completely ridiculous. That was way worse than giving round 4 to Gamrot. The overall card going to Emmett is understandable had they all given the first 3 to him.

I just want consistent adherence to the criteria. It’s not a difficult thing to ask for. They deviated away from how they’re supposed to score. They need to look into getting more judges to score each fight. And maybe get them away from cageside.

Old rules the fight is Gamrot’s. These rules that prioritize damage over control made it pretty clearly Tsarukyan that round.

 

[Taytro]

Zero sub attempts, there was nothing close to a choke. If the striking isn’t even then having somebody’s back doesn’t matter if you don’t do anything with it. The striking was not even, neither in volume or in impact.



I complained about giving round 4 to Emmett last week, yes, because it was completely ridiculous. That was way worse than giving round 4 to Gamrot. The overall card going to Emmett is understandable had they all given the first 3 to him.

I just want consistent adherence to the criteria. It’s not a difficult thing to ask for. They deviated away from how they’re supposed to score. They need to look into getting more judges to score each fight. And maybe get them away from cageside.

Old rules the fight is Gamrot’s. These rules that prioritize damage over control made it pretty clearly Tsarukyan that round.

I agree that judges that should not be cageside as their opinion is easily skewed by crowd noise, corners cheering, visibility issues, maybe commentators, etc. I also think they should be made aware of notable stats at the conclusion of each round.

But again, judges are people and will have bias. Even more judges doesn't solve this one because they all saw it the exact same way.

 

[CDJ]

I agree that judges that should not be cageside as their opinion is easily skewed by crowd noise, corners cheering, visibility issues, maybe commentators, etc. I also think they should be made aware of notable stats at the conclusion of each round.

But again, judges are people and will have bias. Even more judges doesn't solve this one because they all saw it the exact same way.

I have no problem with different opinions, I just have an issue when it goes counter to everything they’ve been scoring the last handful of months. It’s like they went back to the old rules- which again, under those I think the fight is clearly Gamrot’s. There’s different biases and people see things differently yes, But that shouldn’t matter when it’s pretty black and white who did the most damage that round and that’s all that should matter under the new criteria

Like Gamrot didn’t go for a sub, landed 4 strikes on the ground the entire fight, and got outstruck every round numerically and got outstruck damage wise. The only explanation is they decided not to use the new criteria



I’m far from the only one who finds this ridiculous. The old Dana expression about not letting it go to the cards is dumb when we are talking about high level MMA like what we watched last night. Just stick to the criteria, it’s not too much to ask for. At least it shouldn’t be

 

[pistolpete11]

Fun main event. We expected a good one and got it. Those grappling exchanges, especially in the first couple of rounds, were a lot of fun. I had Arman 1-2-3-4. He was landing the bigger shots and Gamrot wasn't doing much with the takedowns. R3 was really close and could go for Gamrot. As Felder said, the announcers needed a replay to really know what happened with the spinning backfist, so it's understandable if the judges missed it live also. So a Gamrot scorecard is understandable even if I think it is wrong.

About the best possible performance you could ask for from Rakhmonov. Dominated a very tough vet for 2 entire rounds and then finds the finish. Dominating for a couple of rounds and then finding the finish are even more impressive than a quick KO. Dude's a terminator. Wonderboy would be a great next fight for him, but I wouldn't be opposed to shooting him all the way up to Burns either.

 

[CDJ]

if the explanation is that they ruled the knockdown in the 4th a slip then fine, they’re wrong but at least it makes the decision to give Gamrot the round justifiable

It’s completely unjustifiable if they saw it for what it truly was, a pretty vicious knockdown that landed flush. Good on Gamrot for having his wrestling instincts kick in immediately, that’s what probably put the “what happened?” In the judges minds. Because he was floored, that landed hard. People can use whatever term they want for the knockdown to try and discredit it but they’d probably be sleeping if it happened to them. Gamrot is just a tough customer and looked more fresh at the end, and that does go a long way even if it shouldn’t (probably fresher because he did a whole lot of nothing offensively on the ground)


Shavkat is the real tho

 

[m9]

Gamrot/Tsarukyan are the ranked guys talked about because they got the main event, but these last two weeks have shown that the two guys that fought last week in Kutateladze and Ismagulov are probably extremely close to them as well if not better. They've already had 3 close decisions between the four fighters.

 

[CDJ]

Gamrot/Tsarukyan are the ranked guys talked about because they got the main event, but these last two weeks have shown that the two guys that fought last week in Kutateladze and Ismagulov are probably extremely close to them as well if not better. They've already had 3 close decisions between the four fighters.

They’re all DOGS too. Good everywhere and tough. 155 is gonna be scary again soon. Not that it isn’t an already elite division, I just think it’ll be unanimously the best division

 

[16Skippy]

Super close, most of the media scores favor Arman but I think it was definitely too close to be called a robbery or anything. Either way I don't think Arman's stock will drop much.

And this division is too stacked lol it's hard to keep track of everyone sometimes.

 

[CDJ]

We saw Ismagulov, Kutateladze, Gamrot, and Tsarukyan in a 7 day span. Add Islam to that mix. Fiziev. I really like Jalin Turner too.

This crop of 155ers is about to tsunami the old crop. And my god are we in for some incredible fights in the future

 

[m9]

I like Grant Dawson and Joel Alvarez as well.

Plus obviously Topuria if he decides to fight at 155.

Will be a fun division, other than learning how to spell some of those names

 

[I am not exposed]

I like Grant Dawson and Joel Alvarez as well.

Plus obviously Topuria if he decides to fight at 155.

Will be a fun division, other than learning how to spell some of those names

My thoughts as well.

Hell, some people misspell Conor so God help them.

 

[CDJ]

Luke Thomas basically saying the exact same thing I’m saying about round 4, except in much less of a tantrumy way

Under the modern scoring it’s impossible to interpret that as Gamrot’s round, of the scoring of half a decade ago it’s easily Gamrot’s round

 

[m9]

Luke Thomas basically saying the exact same thing I’m saying about round 4, except in much less of a tantrumy way tho

I scored the fight the exact same as you I think, but I just think people are overthinking Round 4. Judges have always valued the last thing they see in the round more than the beginning - it's been like that forever. If the exact same round occurred but Gamrot grappled at the beginning instead of the end they would have scored it for Tsuryakan.

People talking about old scoring system vs new scoring system etc.. it's all irrelevant and has nothing to do with why it was scored like that.

 

[CDJ]

I scored the fight the exact same as you I think, but I just think people are overthinking Round 4. Judges have always valued the last thing they see in the round more than the beginning - it's been like that forever. If the exact same round occurred but Gamrot grappled at the beginning instead of the end they would have scored it for Tsuryakan.

People talking about old scoring system vs new scoring system etc.. it's all irrelevant and has nothing to do with why it was scored like that.

It really is relevant. Under the old rules it’s an easy Gamrot win, under the modern rules there is quite literally no argument for him to win round 4. Regardless of what happens when.

 

[CDJ]

Just realized Chris Curtis has taken out Phil Hawes, Brendan Allen, and Rodolfo Vieira to begin his UFC career. Not too shabby, he should get a co-main on a fight night or something for his next bout