GDT: UFC 217: Bisping vs. St-Pierre

[LSCII]

I can also compile a list of top most paid athletes in the NBA and majority will be black. Context matters.

When it comes to PPV sales, it's not even about talent, it's about a fighter's personality. The first 8 cards on your list feature headliners who are characters. People buy Floyd's PPVs not because they like to see him dance around his opponents but because of his personality.

This is exactly right. McGregor sells more than Woodley, not because he's white, but because he sells his fights with all his crap before the event. And even then, once the fight starts, he's an action fighter whose fights end in a spectacular fashion. Woodley is boring as f*** as an interview, and his fights make even the most ardent MMA fans want to take a nap. Race has ZERO to do with that.

 

[m9]

I can also compile a list of top most paid athletes in the NBA and majority will be black. Context matters.

When it comes to PPV sales, it's not even about talent, it's about a fighter's personality. The first 8 cards on your list feature headliners who are characters. People buy Floyd's PPVs not because they like to see him dance around his opponents but because of his personality.

This is about MMA, not boxing or basketball. As mentioned, there are different roots in those sports and I do not think there is an issue there.

In terms of the buys - absolutely it is about a fighter's personality. And the other half of that is whether or not fans embrace that personality. That's what makes a fighter popular.

I'm not gonna go back and debate the race issue, but I think a huge problem here is that you're overlooking the star power some of these athletes bring regardless of background. Connor and GSP have two entire countries behind them, Brock is a WWE superstar and a freak of nature, and Ronda is the first significant dominant female UFC champ. These are more factors to their success and sale figures than their background.

Speaking of the highest paperview sales in combat sports, this list proves that star power goes beyond race:

The 50 best-selling pay-per-view fight nights in history

I'm not overlooking the star power. I think that "star power" accounts for the ridiculous heights, but even if you cut those PPV #'s down a good portion they are still near the top.

And not really debating anything to do with boxing. I don't think there is an issue there. As mentioned, I'm not a "racism is everywhere" guy.

We're talking about two different things and mixing them into one:

1. Experiences of black athletes trying to make it to the top and staying there.
2. Popularity of black athletes (or entertainers) suffering due to their skin color.

The first issue is obvious but I disagree with the latter. You have scumbags like Chris Brown still beloved. Jon Jones, Floyd, and others. Once you get all the way to the top, your race is not a factor (it can be for some racists but we're not talking in absolutes here). It's a combination of talent and charisma. Cormier and Woodley got only one of those. One is a dorky goofball with no KO power and the other has a personality of a potato. A very well spoken potato.

There's just not enough top level black athletes in MMA and therefore examples for this discussion, potentially due to point #1 or cultural reasons.

We can maybe divert it to boxing since it's a much popular sport among African-Americans and provides a larger sample size to use for examples.

There isn't an issue in boxing, there's nothing to discuss.

I feel like the issues people have with Cormier, Woodley, and DJ are all things that you could say about others as well. They're just excuses. 145lbs was always considered "too small" until Conor took it over. GSP is french and is one of the most boring guys you will see in the sport. Rousey is a female.

I don't think "there's not enough top level black athletes in MMA" is a viable reason. There are multiple UFC champions and the top tens are littered with black athletes.

 

[m9]

So instead of looking back, looking forward.

Who are the next black stars in MMA? Who has the potential to headline good PPV's?

 

[Avs_19]

So instead of looking back, looking forward.

Who are the next black stars in MMA? Who has the potential to headline good PPV's?

Ngannou is probably at the top of that list. He's a HW, he's exciting, and his English is getting pretty good.

Lee had a setback and that PPV didn't sell well but I think he still has the potential to be a star. He's only 25 years old so he has time.

 

[kurt]

Ngannou is probably at the top of that list. He's a HW, he's exciting, and his English is getting pretty good.

Lee had a setback and that PPV didn't sell well but I think he still has the potential to be a star. He's only 25 years old so he has time.

Agree 100% with Lee. Lewis was doing a lot of good stuff during the hurricane, and is overall a heck of a character, but just doesn't seem to have the discipline and/or durability.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

I feel like the issues people have with Cormier, Woodley, and DJ are all things that you could say about others as well. They're just excuses. 145lbs was always considered "too small" until Conor took it over. GSP is french and is one of the most boring guys you will see in the sport. Rousey is a female.

I don't think "there's not enough top level black athletes in MMA" is a viable reason. There are multiple UFC champions and the top tens are littered with black athletes.

Ok, let's look at these examples....

• The too small argument has less to do with actual size and more to do with knockout power. Jose Aldo was the only champ in the division all- time and has only had 2 knockouts in the UFC. He also had no personality. Then Conor had in full of charisma with 6 KOs, including Jose.
• GSP: the massive reason behind his popularity is Canada. He is not a big star in the US, at least not as much as you think. His latest PPV did 250k in Canada and 625k in US. His overall post-Serra II records are between 700-800k. The only outlier is Diaz selling wolf tickets and almost making it 1M. Jon Jones latest PPVs with Cormier have both done 800k+. His fight against Rampage did 700k. So any time there was a glimpse of personality and hype, a black man generated huge PPV numbers.
• Rousey: seriously? Are we now saying MMA fans are more racist than they are sexist? Why was Rousey popular? Maybe because like Conor, all her fights were finishes. Maybe like GSP, she had a huge following (there are more women than there are Canadians), and the media picked up her as the one and only and made her a star.
• DJ: his PPV against Cariaso did 205k. His other ones did 100-125k. Last one did 200k. Let's take a look at a division one class up that results in more KOs: Dillishaw did 215k against Barao and 125k against Soto. Faber did 235k against Barao twice. And had a "big" one against Cruz at 350k. Why? Because drama.

Like I said ... finishes + drama = PPVs. DJ is non-confrontational with no KO power. Woodley is sometimes exciting with a personality of a potato. Cormier is a dorky dad with no KO power. Shit even Jon Jones has no KO power (outside of the last fight) but still sold 800k because of personality.

This will by my last comment on this topic. I actually put thought and research into my posts so they take an unfortunate amount of time trying to prove something that is obvious to most. While it's a very interesting subject matter, there's just not enough data coming from the other side outside of personal opinions to continue it.

 

[m9]

Ok, let's look at these examples....

• The too small argument has less to do with actual size and more to do with knockout power. Jose Aldo was the only champ in the division all- time and has only had 2 knockouts in the UFC. He also had no personality. Then Conor had in full of charisma with 6 KOs, including Jose.
• GSP: the massive reason behind his popularity is Canada. He is not a big star in the US, at least not as much as you think. His latest PPV did 250k in Canada and 625k in US. His overall post-Serra II records are between 700-800k. The only outlier is Diaz selling wolf tickets and almost making it 1M. Jon Jones latest PPVs with Cormier have both done 800k+. His fight against Rampage did 700k. So any time there was a glimpse of personality and hype, a black man generated huge PPV numbers.
• Rousey: seriously? Are we now saying MMA fans are more racist than they are sexist? Why was Rousey popular? Maybe because like Conor, all her fights were finishes. Maybe like GSP, she had a huge following (there are more women than there are Canadians), and the media picked up her as the one and only and made her a star.
• DJ: his PPV against Cariaso did 205k. His other ones did 100-125k. Last one did 200k. Let's take a look at a division one class up that results in more KOs: Dillishaw did 215k against Barao and 125k against Soto. Faber did 235k against Barao twice. And had a "big" one against Cruz at 350k. Why? Because drama.

Like I said ... finishes + drama = PPVs. DJ is non-confrontational with no KO power. Woodley is sometimes exciting with a personality of a potato. Cormier is a dorky dad with no KO power. **** even Jon Jones has no KO power (outside of the last fight) but still sold 800k because of personality.

This will by my last comment on this topic. I actually put thought and research into my posts so they take an unfortunate amount of time trying to prove something that is obvious to most. While it's a very interesting subject matter, there's just not enough data coming from the other side outside of personal opinions to continue it.

Spare the unneeded condescending parts of your posts and you'll save some time. Also strange that "there's not enough data to know" and then use the data to your liking anyway.

I have never said race is the only or even #1 factor in everything - just that it contributes. I would be interested in the demographics for UFC fans in general - I haven't seen anything out there other than age, and I don't trust my eyeball test from the events I've been at.

 

[m9]

Ngannou is probably at the top of that list. He's a HW, he's exciting, and his English is getting pretty good.

Lee had a setback and that PPV didn't sell well but I think he still has the potential to be a star. He's only 25 years old so he has time.

Agree 100% with Lee. Lewis was doing a lot of good stuff during the hurricane, and is overall a heck of a character, but just doesn't seem to have the discipline and/or durability.

I'm going to go on the other side with Lee - I don't think so. 155 is a tough division to stick around at, much less be a star. He does have the ultimate shortcut in that a fight and subsequent win over McGregor would be huge.

Ngannou is interesting as well.

I think the 205 or 185 class are ripe for a star.

I'm intrigued with how Eryk Anders develops at 185, I've got a feeling he might be something big.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

Condescension comes naturally and only takes seconds.

The data that is there doesn't tell your story. Maybe once the sport develops and we get more, we'll realize MMA fans are a lot more racist than boxing, NBA, NFL and others.

 

[m9]

Condescension comes naturally and only takes seconds.

The data that is there doesn't tell your story. Maybe once the sport develops and we get more, we'll realize MMA fans are a lot more racist than boxing, NBA, NFL and others.

Maybe.

I think that demographics skew "white" for MMA, and it's human nature to cheer for their own race, religion, region, or whatever. Is that racism/prejudice?

 

[Kitten Mittons]

I think that's definitely the case internationally/ religiously (Irish and Conor, Brazilians and Silva, Canadians and GSP, ex-USSR Muslims and Khabib) but for Americans? I'm not sure that's the case otherwise we would see it in other sports.

It's really an American sport mainly hosted in America and mostly populated with American athletes. If it was a mainly Brazilian sport then I can see the national or racial pride potentially shining through.